Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #6

[RickshawFan]

Not sure whether something is wrong with Google Maps, but I noticed this on the topo map as well. Refuge de la Glere does not seem to be near Port de la Glere. I've been second guess myself thinking that the maps are off.

Assuming the maps are correct, Esther's only option from Port de la Glere was Hospital de Benasque or Refuge de Venasque.

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Maps are definitely correct. The Refuge de la Glere is no where near the Port de la Glere.

Google Maps

You are correct as far as I've investigated: the refuge de la g is not very close to the port de la g. IMO, if the night after the Pic, ED went to the cabane, and climbed up tp the p de la g the next day....I'll bet she thought she could do this AND descend to the refuge de la g the next day.There's no evidence she had a topo map, which would have given her the wherewithal to visualize the difficulty of getting there (a phone screen is simply too small, and wouldn't give the necessary detail). Both ED and DC put a lot of trust in athleticism (which DC calls "experience"), but athleticism scarcely matters if conditions, terrain, hours of daylight, the lay of the land, footwear etc. won't support the goal.

 

[Kazibar]

“If she was heading to the Refuge de la Glere…
Refuge de laGlere is nowhere near the area. It’s much further into France near the lac de la glere.

 

[Kazibar]

“If she was heading to the Refuge de la Glere…
Refuge de laGlere is nowhere near the area. It’s much further into France near the lac de la glere.

 

[Kazibar]

http://robertetlespyrenees.kazeo.com/pic-de-sacroux-2676-m-et-pic-de-la-glere-2496-m-a120142244

I read this account of the hike up to Port de la Glere from Hospital last night and the on up to the peak. It’s in French but easily readable if you stick into Google and trans to English. It talks about how slippery it is (in summer) and needing an ice axe.

 

[mrjitty]

And on that scree slope? If you're falling, you're done for; there's no way you can stop.

RSBM

Do you mean if there is a a scree slide?

We used to jump down these a bit like skiing as kids. IMO it's reasonably easy to stop unless the scree slope itself starts moving - in which case you are in trouble. The main thing I remember about descending these was making sure there was not a big bluff at the end

I guess if it is super step and icy she might have bounced down it

 

[Steve13]

Sorry about the long ramble but some good links here I hope..

Here is a really excellent video showing the walk up from Hospice de France, via Refuge de Venasque, up to the Port de Venasque, then up to Sauvegarde and back down to the Refuge de Venasque. This shows I think exactly the route (in reverse) that ED was expected to walk according to DC's dossier. Pic de Sauvegarde par Port de Vénasque entre Frères ! - YouTube

There are some interesting things from this video:
1. As per DC's dossier, the route down to Hospice de France is relatively easy and it would without doubt be hard to get lost, or fall off any significant height and there seem to be no scree slopes on this bit. If you did fall, you wouldn't fall very far from the main path (unless you strayed off it).Very hard to disagree with DC on this.
2. You get a very good view on the video at 3.36 from the Sauvegarde mountain down to the Boums du Port (lakes at Refuge de Venasque) so it would have been hard to get very disorientated unless there was fog and the weather was reported as excellent.
3. At 6.55 you get a very good view of the path down from Pic de Sauvegarde to the Refuge de Venasque which passes close to the lake. Although not completely impossible, I find it hard to believe she could have unintentionally fallen into the lake from the path.
4. The ground appears hard, rocky and if there was any foul play it is hard to see how she could have been deliberately concealed much.

Further down in the Hospice de France direction, DC reports there was good phone signal and if she had walked down and seen the car park it is likely she might have turned her phone on expecting signal.

The whole area shown on this video has been extensively searched by the search team and also by DC, and also now I expect walked by many people.

All this leads me to the conclusion, as many others have mentioned, that she probably didn't take this route down from Sauvegarde and perhaps she either changed her plan or maybe just felt safer heading back to the Spanish side where she had already been walking. I find it hard to believe that late in the day and on her own she would have decided to take the treacherous route direct from Pic de Sauvegarde to the Port de Glere area which isn't even marked as a path. That means her route down was back to Port de Venasque and from there either (1) French side, direction Refuge de Venasque or maybe further down that evening or (2) to the Spanish side.

On the Spanish side from Port de Venasque, there are three routes (one, directly East completely away from the area- unlikely). One South, down to the Basurta car park and one South West direction of Cascada de Gorgutes (paths here Rando Le Cirque de la Glère par le Chemin de l'Impératrice (randonnee-nomade.com)). If she had taken the one down to Cascada de Gorgutes then that forms the main path up to Port de Glere from the Spanish side (Senderismo: Ibon de Gorgutes y puerto de la Glera por Chesco - Pirineos3000). I would have thought there is a strong possibility this formed her onward route to Port de Glere. That route up goes alongside the Torrente de Gorgutes so a small possibility of a fall into water here exists (

) but I doubt this is likely from the video and maps.

This area on the Spanish side described above has been extensively searched by DC at least (and presumably the search team-Esther Dingley: Partner baffled by no signs of her - BBC News).

However, the area not searched extensively by DC is the French side north of Port de Glere and the area West of this. ED might have got to Port de Glere easily given her fitness and decided to go a little higher East, perhaps to Pic de Sacroux or even Pico Bonneco (2666m). These areas are in the search and rescue area but I doubt it was possible to cover search these areas very easily given the steep topography and probably this area wasn't the first area prioritised.

All of this is relevant because a lammergeier could have moved the bone found a significant distance I think.

Mobile/cellular signal on the Spanish side is interesting (GSMA - Network Coverage Maps). I think the main networks are Movistar and Orange in Spain. As per the map, signal is very network dependent and we don't know what network ED was on. Orange, for example, has no GSM coverage low down in the valley on the Spanish side but there is weak 3G signal. Movistar has excellent 3G and GSM signal. Vodaphone has no 3G signal at all in the whole area (??- don't believe this). None of the signal coverage maps match what DC reports in his dossier on the French side so there are likely local mountain cellular signal propagation effects altering signal strength (ie. this cellular coverage data is likely very unreliable).

This is really super, Kike76. Thanks!

 

[otto]

Quite so. It seems that "Glère" is derived from an Occitan word meaning scree, gravel, or rubble. That being the case, it isn't uncommon in Pyrenean toponyms.

So much has been said about refuge de la glere since Esther's disappearance - but it is no where near her planned route.

 

[Steve13]

As a quasi-philosophical point, I see this thread includes a number of posters saying that, essentially, we shouldn't speculate and should wait until the authorities tell us what they've found. MOO, but it seems to me that this is antipathetic to the very raison d'être of Websleuths. There are many other websites; posters here really should not feel lobbied not to examine constructively all the angles. Just my opinion and put with respect to all fellow posters.

 

[otto]

RSBM

Nice job, @Kike76. I appreciate your research. I found this image at 1:57-8s in the Youtube video you referenced, very interesting. I guess this is Port de la Glere looking up from below on the French side. And if that is true, one could imagine all that nicely formed zig-zag trail with stone walls made it a passible trail at one time. You have to wonder if part of that huge scree field are all those shale stones used to make all those stone walls for the path back then.

View attachment 306991

WW2 was a different time.

 

[Steve13]

I agree, sadly it's what they do - especially the tabloids - big it up to attract readers. They don't care what the collateral damage is IMO. It's even worse now with newspapers being online, and you get all the comments sections below an article filled with vile trolls posting.

Hi, Grouse. I'm not sure which country you live in but where I live the free press is a pretty great thing. We don't always like what they write, of course, but they flag their readers' interests and concerns. Where people post below the line, they're the same sort of people who post here. I don't think it's fair to call people vile trolls. Online obviously gives far greater access and here you and I are - posting to an online board! In the end, these freedoms and facilities help solve problems - perhaps like the fate of Esther Dingley - which would have gone unsolved in the past. The media have been really sympathetic to the victims in this case. My own view is that we should encourage them and not diss newspapers and their readers. MOO.

 

[Steve13]

If I may make another small but perhaps significant point? While there is some redundancy in the posting here, that's generally a good thing in any constructive process. In the round, the quality of posting is really high and I for one am thankful for all the outdoors experts taking time to put great quality information up in a constructive and fraternal fashion. WS will be watched by LE and others and so we can be a (modest) force for good. I'm an experienced climber, but I absolutely defer to many of the folks here who have a much better knowledge of the area, sometimes though extensive online research, than me. That said, I've decided to give more weight to DC's theory that ED was a victim of foul play. I don't agree with all DC's reasoning, but I do feel there are strong signs that the French authorities have reason to think DC may be correct. And of course DC's personal insights into all of this are greater than all of us put together. The weighting has recently shifted towards foul play, I think. I'm going to concentrate my own efforts on respecting and supporting DC's view that ED was indeed the victim of foul play. Obv, others will see things differently and that diversity is what makes this board so good. Folks should be proud to be a part of it, actually. So there!

 

[otto]

Hi @RedHaus. Thank you so much for reply! As I understand it, most research indicates that mood is initially euphoric and then depressed. Some research also indicates that it may depend if the person was born at altitude. A person born at altitude may not be as susceptible.

Some sources:

"Observed behaviors and personal anecdotes suggest that the initial mood experienced at altitude is euphoria, followed by depression. With time, individuals may also become quarrelsome, irritable, anxious, and apathetic (Van Liere and Stickney, 1963)." The Effect of Altitude on Cognitive Performance and Mood States - Nutritional Needs In Cold And In High-Altitude Environments - NCBI Bookshelf

"What’s interesting is that some people feel better at altitude, while others suffer from the depressive like symptoms. Renshaw suggests that in these cases the increase in dopamine supersedes the decrease in serotonin, and that this likely occurs in those who are born at altitude. These are the people who move away from the mountains and yearn to be back home.
On the flip side, if the drop in serotonin levels predominate then people are more likely to feel the symptoms of depression, anxiety, and so forth." Your Brain on Altitude- How altitude can cause or prevent depression?

"In a 2005 study, the Naval Health Research Center measured mood changes in Marines who left seaside San Diego for 30 days of strenuous training in the Northern California mountains. Before training, the Marines completed a self-evaluation of their levels of anxiety, dejection, fatigue and bewilderment, among other mood symptoms. They completed the same evaluation after training ended, and then again 90 days later. While their physical fitness improved during training, their mental health disintegrated. Before training, the Marines reported more balanced mood levels than average college-aged men. By the time they finished, they described mood symptoms comparable to those of psychiatric patients. Ninety days later, they were just as sad and agitated." Your Brain on Altitude- How altitude can cause or prevent depression?

Esther Dinley is sea level both in the UK and through her Dutch father. People born at 1100 meters above sea level are not quite the same as sea level hikers at 2200 meters.

Born in the Rocky Mountains, it's not difficult to understand the brainfart that sea-level dwellers experience in the mountains. The most bizarre story I heard was about sea level Australians who camped in the Great White North forest and they were attached by bears. They launched a lawsuit against the federal government demanding that bears be penned up so people could camp open - bivouac - in bear country.

Perhaps Esther became light headed, perhaps she became vulnerable. Regardless, she ended her life one way or another in the Pyrenees. I don't think she wanted to return to her life, which meant house sitting in France and soon returning to London with no money and no future. What was she going to do - stand on a street corner in London and ask people for fruit? Her lifestyle of 6 years was asking strangers for fruit. Not surprising she was afraid to go home.

 

[Grouse]

Hi, Grouse. I'm not sure which country you live in but where I live the free press is a pretty great thing. We don't always like what they write, of course, but they flag their readers' interests and concerns. Where people post below the line, they're the same sort of people who post here. I don't think it's fair to call people vile trolls. Online obviously gives far greater access and here you and I are - posting to an online board! In the end, these freedoms and facilities help solve problems - perhaps like the fate of Esther Dingley - which would have gone unsolved in the past. The media have been really sympathetic to the victims in this case. My own view is that we should encourage them and not diss newspapers and their readers. MOO.

Not sure if you are being serious or not, but FWIW I live in the UK and I have had good reasons over the years to distrust our tabloid press, the treatment of Christopher Jefferies, and the News International phone-hacking scandal to name a couple.

In the Esther Dingley case they do seem to have handled things more carefully, but some of the comments I've seen below articles by "readers" have been appalling.

 

[IrisElizabeth]

If I may make another small but perhaps significant point? While there is some redundancy in the posting here, that's generally a good thing in any constructive process. In the round, the quality of posting is really high and I for one am thankful for all the outdoors experts taking time to put great quality information up in a constructive and fraternal fashion. WS will be watched by LE and others and so we can be a (modest) force for good. I'm an experienced climber, but I absolutely defer to many of the folks here who have a much better knowledge of the area, sometimes though extensive online research, than me. That said, I've decided to give more weight to DC's theory that ED was a victim of foul play. I don't agree with all DC's reasoning, but I do feel there are strong signs that the French authorities have reason to think DC may be correct. And of course DC's personal insights into all of this are greater than all of us put together. The weighting has recently shifted towards foul play, I think. I'm going to concentrate my own efforts on respecting and supporting DC's view that ED was indeed the victim of foul play. Obv, others will see things differently and that diversity is what makes this board so good. Folks should be proud to be a part of it, actually. So there!

I don’t think there are strong signs that the French LE are leaning towards foul play, they just can’t rule it out which is not the same thing - and the publicity this case has attracted particularly because of DC’s adamant assertions that it could only have been foul play means that they need to get to the bottom of what happened to Esther. I still strongly believe she found a hidden quiet spot and ended her own life. Her nomadic way of life was coming to an end and I think she decided to stay in the mountains forever.

 

[Hatty]

It seems a lot more than a forensic analysis. Cops, prosecutors, patrols on the ground, many questions unanswered. This is a police inquiry now; that's why the media are begging it up I think.

When a body or part of a body is found, there is always an investigation and the police are involved. It does not mean foul play is necessarily suspected. In many of the other missing hiker cases, the whole body has been located (or most of it) making it easier to explain the reasons for death. In the UK a file has to be prepared for the Coroner to show that a satisfactory investigation into a death has taken place into why and how the person died.

Finding just a bit of skull without attempting to locate the rest of the body wouldn’t suffice in my experience.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Has Dan continued to suggest foul play since Esther’s skull was found? I understand that was his stance when she had seemingly vanished off the face of the earth, but now there is proof of her death in the mountains, is he still saying that?

Hopefully, further searches and forensic examination of the skull will bring some answers to this mystery. Her poor family have nowhere near enough info to get any closure yet.

 

[Hatty]

Could you maybe cite some French examples where LE has pursued a criminal inquiry in a "missing hiker found deceased" case without a tip that a crime might have taken place? Where LE/SAR kept trying trying trying to find the remainder of the remains of someone who has been "missing found deceased" in the mountains? In the Pyrenees? At the very start, LE made clear that they don't search interminably: it's not in the nature of mountains to make known where the dead are.
Backcountry and mountains are not the same as front country when it comes to protocol.

LE probably wouldn’t have searched interminably if they hadn’t found anything - but now that a body part has been found there is a duty to further investigate to establish what has happened. At least that’s what we do in the UK.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Finding just a bit of skull without attempting to locate the rest of the body wouldn’t suffice in my experience.

Exactly this, Hatty. I’m not sure why further searches are being touted as proof of foul play. Good to see you, police experience always welcome

 

[pineapple23]

Has Dan continued to suggest foul play since Esther’s skull was found? I understand that was his stance when she had seemingly vanished off the face of the earth, but now there is proof of her death in the mountains, is he still saying that?

Hi I'm new here but have been following this from the start. It's an interesting point. I can't help thinking that Dan's insistence on foul play was due in part, to it being the only option which allowed for the possibility of her still being alive - ie she might be being held somewhere against her will.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Hi I'm new here but have been following this from the start. It's an interesting point. I can't help thinking that Dan's insistence on foul play was due in part, to it being the only option which allowed for the possibility of her still being alive.

Of course, and we’ve seen that countless times in misper cases. Loved ones would rather someone left them involuntarily than on purpose. Insinuations of foul play also maintain the momentum of a case. “Hiker fell and died” does not a headline make.

Esther went missing shortly before the snow blanketed the area which halted searches. It effectively enforced a “pause” in the case lasting several months, thereby ramping up speculation and conjecture. It’s only natural. Had she been found, or the skull had been found, back in December, we’d all just assume tragic accident and quite possibly wouldn’t have give the case much more thought.