Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #137

[infinit]

thanks much for this makes a lot of sense ...they have it , they work on it..it's a process and they will press conference when they decide to move forward with charges on public record.

I think they've got a hell of a task regardless. If they don't have the quality in the touch DNA to match, they're going to have to do a lot of work to build a case considering this is Carter 6 months into the investigation:

This is a tough case. This is a tough case. There's, I think, alleged a lot of evidence, but really we have very little evidence in this case, so we're working with what we have. We're getting a ton of tips, which helps.

 

[minazoe]

lets say JBC's foot prints aren't a match, or his hair does not match a hair found, or even his gait is not correct according to the video...or his voice is not a match..

I'm just saying...3.5 months is a good deal of time...
mOO

 

[minazoe]

also this is a high profile case and any association to it can prejudice a jury ( theoretically) ...so they would actually be under pressure to make some kind of statement that would disconnect JBC from The Delphi Murders..

but uh no can do...mOO

 

[infinit]

lets say JBC's foot prints aren't a match, or his hair does not match a hair found, or even his gait is not correct according to the video...or his voice is not a match..

I'm just saying...3.5 months is a good deal of time...
mOO

Forensic speaker recognition is no exact science. How far they'll get will depend on how many words BG says, how much other noise there is (the publically released version has clearly been heavily edited) including in the enviroment and Libby or Abby potentially talking at the same time.

Again, foot prints, unless he's kept the exact shoes for 4 years, being the same size doesn't exactly narrow it down. Perhaps they can pin him to the same brand and style of shoe if they can find photo's/video with him wearing them.

Again with the gait, I don't think personally bg even has a gait. In the stabilised video to me it seems it's quite clear the video released is ended when he changes direction to directly towards the girls.

I wasn't aware they had a hair, I know Carter heavily hints they have touch DNA. But again touch DNA is more commonly used by the defence because it's seen to have a high rate of false positives. Although you'd need a very good lawyer to explain it away in this case. It was used to convict Daniel Holtzclaw, but then they also had his GPS tracker that put him at the crime locations.

 

[minazoe]

Oh ! I was speaking hypothetically in terms of how many ways he could be cleared. I do not know if there is hair / mitochondrial evidence..But lets say the shoe size is a mens 8 ..is JBC a size 8? if he's a nine or ten he's out. And how about his phones ? or the eyewitnesses?

mOO

 

[minazoe]

I also wonder if he has boxes or bags of stuff stashed at people's houses where he stayed or if he needed a place to store some stuff..like at his sister's. ...he may have items of interest stashed around.

 

[infinit]

Oh ! I was speaking hypothetically in terms of how many ways he could be cleared. I do not know if there is hair / mitochondrial evidence..But lets say the shoe size is a mens 8 ..is JBC a size 8? if he's a nine or ten he's out. And how about his phones ? or the eyewitnesses?

mOO

I do hope so. I think I'm pessimistic because in my opinion, the most recent sketch looks nothing like JBC if I'm honest.

• JBC has a big, fat nose, the sketch has an almost abnormally thin nose.
  
• The mouth is not close to being in the correct place, in the sketch the mouth is up close to the nose and then there is a sizable, pointy chin. JBC's mouth seems to fit right in the middle between nose and bottom of the chin.
  
• Even in younger photos carrying less weight, he doesn't seem to have a pointy chin which is very prominent in the sketch
  
• JBC's got very distinct large ears which again aren't in the sketch
• JBC has thick eyebrows that fade towards the outer edges. The sketch has long, thin eyebrows.

The 1st sketch seems to have the ears, a more accurate nose, more accurate eyebrows and the mouth in a better position. But this is where I get annoyed with LE....

The 1st sketch has a curved chin, thicker eyebrows, a thicker nose and large ears
The 2nd sketch has a pointy chin, thin eyebrows, a very thin nose and average ears

And then they say there might be features from both? There are so many differences in the sketches that if you picked what you wanted I think you could get most males with brown hair to fit it.

 

[Charlot123]

.

I do hope so. I think I'm pessimistic because in my opinion, the most recent sketch looks nothing like JBC if I'm honest.

• JBC has a big, fat nose, the sketch has an almost abnormally thin nose.
  
• The mouth is not close to being in the correct place, in the sketch the mouth is up close to the nose and then there is a sizable, pointy chin. JBC's mouth seems to fit right in the middle between nose and bottom of the chin.
  
• Even in younger photos carrying less weight, he doesn't seem to have a pointy chin which is very prominent in the sketch
  
• JBC's got very distinct large ears which again aren't in the sketch
• JBC has thick eyebrows that fade towards the outer edges. The sketch has long, thin eyebrows.

The 1st sketch seems to have the ears, a more accurate nose, more accurate eyebrows and the mouth in a better position. But this is where I get annoyed with LE....

The 1st sketch has a curved chin, thicker eyebrows, a thicker nose and large ears
The 2nd sketch has a pointy chin, thin eyebrows, a very thin nose and average ears

And then they say there might be features from both? There are so many differences in the sketches that if you picked what you wanted I think you could get most males with brown hair to fit it.

While I do not think it is JBC, and never did, a sketch is based on the visual memory of the witness. So, comparing eyebrows or noses might lead us nowhere - JMO. When I look at TB’s sketches, some look like him (long, concave face, pronounced eyebrows), some are off. Same with GSK. Human memory…

I don’t know what we have for comparison. The video changes from a frame to a frame, and then, one has to factor in that it is only half of the face that we see. The Internet is full of the photos of young men standing on MHB, “resembling” the BG; to me, it amply illustrates one fact, BG looks like any other average guy.

The span of heights and weights, as well as ages, adds to the confusion.

I hope the case will be solved. But I doubt that it will be by us. I think the fact that people blame JBC indicates how hopeless the community had become. (But it is a dangerous phase, too).

 

[keep-it-real]

I think they've got a hell of a task regardless. If they don't have the quality in the touch DNA to match, they're going to have to do a lot of work to build a case considering this is Carter 6 months into the investigation:

I think the task they face is because of the genealogy group, and that more than one person (a group) committed the crime.

These are my opinions.

 

[keep-it-real]

.
While I do not think it is JBC, and never did, a sketch is based on the visual memory of the witness. So, comparing eyebrows or noses might lead us nowhere - JMO. When I look at TB’s sketches, some look like him (long, concave face, pronounced eyebrows), some are off. Same with GSK. Human memory…

I don’t know what we have for comparison. The video changes from a frame to a frame, and then, one has to factor in that it is only half of the face that we see. The Internet is full of the photos of young men standing on MHB, “resembling” the BG; to me, it amply illustrates one fact, BG looks like any other average guy.

The span of heights and weights, as well as ages, adds to the confusion.

I hope the case will be solved. But I doubt that it will be by us. I think the fact that people blame JBC indicates how hopeless the community had become. (But it is a dangerous phase, too).[/QUOTE

In reply:-

If I may point out, the reason why this case has Sleuths going round in cirlces is because they are looking for one person.
I mentioned this crime is a crime commited by more than one person - a group of people. The span of height weights and and ages and and facial composites in my opinion are not meant to confuse, these are witness reports of individuals in Bridge area on that day around the time the murders took place and LE seek to identify them.

In regard to the BG video. Im not an expert but I do have a particular interest in cctv and video footage, it can be one of the most valuable tools presented to us in a crime. However this footage is particuarly difficult to analysis the person literally takes 3 steps the third step doesnt even hit the ground before the footage ends.
The mistake you can make when viewing this footage is to assume what has happened before and after. To do this could lead you to build an unknown series of events that in reality may not have happened at all.
So that leaves us with the footage of a person on the bridge who takes almost three akward steps in a slightly sideways but forward direction. We also have a visual on the persons clothing.
As I mentioned before the focus should on only that footage. Other people on the thread who may also have an interest in cctv and video crime footage will know that some images, and items may be blurred out or erased there is a variety of reasons for this. Some people may have been identified and eliminated as they are innocent or they may have been identified and are crucial to the case so are case sensitive material. The same applies to items, clothing, or vehicles in such cases.

It does take a considerable amount of time to clean up cctv and video and the results vary immensely in what you are able to reveal due to the methods used in blurring and erasing images.

In my opinion the footage shows more than one person.

These are my opinions

Please note I have lost the complete toolbar in my reply box which is causing me problems as there are sections in my reply that I am unable to highlight as a matter of importance. Im also finding that some of my replies are not appearing as a seperate reply by as part of the original posters text. Sorry for any confusion...heres hoping it rights its self again soon!

 

[jg580]

RE footprints- this is confirmed as something LE have? If so, do they know they are from the killer (or very likely based on placement?)

 

[Yemelyan]

RE footprints- this is confirmed as something LE have? If so, do they know they are from the killer (or very likely based on placement?)

This MSM article mentions the footprints:
https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...-bodies-found-as-missing-carroll-county-teens

"Sources tell Call 6 Investigates that a set of footprints are what led volunteers to the area the bodies were found."

However, there is no indication that these footprints - if accurate - are from the killer. They could have been footprints from one or both girls. There is no information as to size, shod or unshod, location, placement, etc.

 

[minazoe]

It is only one of many possible ways they can determine the size of the perpetrators feet, much in the way they were able to get a close approximation of his size by looking at the raw/original video file in the phone. So even if they don't have a footprint they may have a good idea of his shoe size.

added: they do estimate his height at 5.8 approx ..correct? so he is short. mOO

 

[Yemelyan]

It is only one of many possible ways they can determine the size of the perpetrators feet, much in the way they were able to get a close approximation of his size by looking at the raw/original video file in the phone. So even if they don't have a footprint they may have a good idea of his shoe size.

added: they do estimate his height at 5.8 approx ..correct? so he is short. mOO

The FBI "seeking information" page says that the unknown subject is believed to be between 5'6 and 5'10 and weighing between 180-200 pounds.

UNKNOWN SUSPECT — FBI

 

[Barbieshell]

One day I'm going to come back to this thread (as I do every day) to see the word "arrest" stated at the beginning of it... That will be a beautiful day, it truly will.

 

[MistyWaters]

also this is a high profile case and any association to it can prejudice a jury ( theoretically) ...so they would actually be under pressure to make some kind of statement that would disconnect JBC from The Delphi Murders..

but uh no can do...mOO

His defense lawyer is just doing his job. As the victim is alive and able to testify against JBC, after he’s likely convicted I’d bet his lawyer will use his notoriety as a reason to file for a mistrial whether the location of the trial was moved or not. But at the end of the day, I really doubt it has any influence on the Delphi investigation at all. JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

His defense lawyer is just doing his job. As the victim is alive and able to testify against JBC, after he’s likely convicted I’d bet his lawyer will use his notoriety as a reason to file for a mistrial whether the location of the trial was moved or not. But at the end of the day, I really doubt it has any influence on the Delphi investigation at all. JMO

So true. His attorney is in a chess match to make sure there are as many appeal opportunities as possible down the line if a trial occurs.

Having said that, I really doubt they will get to the point where his victim has to testify. Prosecutors will likely do anything to spare her that. Do not be surprised if this case pleads and then nothing else happens.

I wish he was the one responsible for Delphi, but...not sure at this point. It's not going to come down to tattoos or pictures/writings on Facebook, it'll be whether or not LE can place him at that bridge on that day and whatever physical evidence they have from that scene.

 

[minazoe]

right, and so far with the physical evidence they have they have not been able to exclude JBC. mOO

 

[infinit]

.


While I do not think it is JBC, and never did, a sketch is based on the visual memory of the witness. So, comparing eyebrows or noses might lead us nowhere - JMO. When I look at TB’s sketches, some look like him (long, concave face, pronounced eyebrows), some are off. Same with GSK. Human memory…

I don’t know what we have for comparison. The video changes from a frame to a frame, and then, one has to factor in that it is only half of the face that we see. The Internet is full of the photos of young men standing on MHB, “resembling” the BG; to me, it amply illustrates one fact, BG looks like any other average guy.

The span of heights and weights, as well as ages, adds to the confusion.

I hope the case will be solved. But I doubt that it will be by us. I think the fact that people blame JBC indicates how hopeless the community had become. (But it is a dangerous phase, too).

I completely agree.

When it comes to human memory, my issue isn't that they look different or that there is differences. I just think a defence lawyer potentially could have a field day with it and destroy the credibility of the witness(es) who compiled it if I'm honest. Carter in public has said they spent a lot of time on it, that they wanted to get it "right", which if JBC goes to trial, will get thrown back in their faces. When the face shape, eyebrows, nose, ears, and I'd even argue the mouth because JBC has an unusual top lip don't match in any way, there isn't much left. If someone randomly generated a male face I expect they'd probably end up with more matching features.

I think there are clear traits in the 1st sketch that match JBC. Someone has clearly remembered that who they saw had massive ears. Here in the UK I rarely see people with ears the size of his relative to his head. It's an unusual characteristic.

The FBI "seeking information" page says that the unknown subject is believed to be between 5'6 and 5'10 and weighing between 180-200 pounds.

UNKNOWN SUSPECT — FBI

I've never understood this. They have a video with reference objects in the background, they can ascertain exactly where the video was taken from, they can ascertain exactly where BG was in any single frame. I'd hope they have access to laser scanners which can map the entire area very precisely and from there it's just fundementally trigonometry. Yet they have a 4inch height range? I understand with shoes etc it adds variability... But come on, he wasn't wearing stilettos.

 

[Yemelyan]

I completely agree.

I've never understood this. They have a video with reference objects in the background, they can ascertain exactly where the video was taken from, they can ascertain exactly where BG was in any single frame. I'd hope they have access to laser scanners which can map the entire area very precisely and from there it's just fundementally trigonometry. Yet they have a 4inch height range? I understand with shoes etc it adds variability... But come on, he wasn't wearing stilettos.

Respectfully snipped by me to focus on this...

I wonder if they thought he might be hunched over in the frames that they have to reference. So they took the variability of both shoe type and how straight he was standing (his chin is down in some frames) and could only come up with a four inch range? It is unfortunate they can't pin it down further as a 5'6 man in America is considered short but a 5'10 man is considered basically average height.