Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #137

[Yemelyan]

right, and so far with the physical evidence they have they have not been able to exclude JBC. mOO

My concern is that with the physical evidence they have, they have not been able to exclude Paul Etter either (or many other potential suspects, some known to the public and some unknown).

 

[infinit]

Respectfully snipped by me to focus on this...

I wonder if they thought he might be hunched over in the frames that they have to reference. So they took the variability of both shoe type and how straight he was standing (his chin is down in some frames) and could only come up with a four inch range? It is unfortunate they can't pin it down further as a 5'6 man in America is considered short but a 5'10 man is considered basically average height.

Yeah I think he's looking where he's going to place his feet. There are certainly frames where his legs seem at full extension. I'd like to think professionals at this kind of thing can take into account the head looking down vs being raised and any potential forwards slant of his upper torso. Having him walking I'd like to think being able to superimpose a skeleton which can anatomically match BG isn't that far fetched, even with his baggy clothing.

My background is cyber security, I've seen some incredible stuff done when it otherwise seemed hopeless. We've managed to track people's paths around multistorey large corporate buildings to the point we could actually path their route, the rooms they went in and times with no/little CCTV purely based on system logs and signal strengths from all the different wireless access points without any actual access to their device. To the point that out of the 2,000+ people who were caught entering and leaving that building on the entrance CCTV that day, we could pin it to 1 person.

So when I see stuff like that, it frustrates me. Perhaps this is just one of those fields that's in its infancy and will get better with time. But personally, I don't think that's the best that could be done. If I can find the time, I might actually have a go. But ideally would need someone with good familiarity of physiology.

JMO.

 

[Yemelyan]

Yeah I think he's looking where he's going to place his feet. There are certainly frames where his legs seem at full extension. I'd like to think professionals at this kind of thing can take into account the head looking down vs being raised and any potential forwards slant of his upper torso.
.

I think he's also hunched over in his upper body to make himself seem smaller, non-threatening as he approaches and possibly to avoid them getting a great look at his face. I keep my head down when I don't want to be noticed.

He doesn't want them to run off before he catches up to them. JMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

right, and so far with the physical evidence they have they have not been able to exclude JBC. mOO

True, nor have LE excluded “other possible suspects” as mentioned. Does it matter who the evidence may lead toward, JBC or someone else?

 

[Charlot123]

The mistake you can make when viewing this footage is to assume what has happened before and after. To do this could lead you to build an unknown series of events that in reality may not have happened at all.
So that leaves us with the footage of a person on the bridge who takes almost three akward steps in a slightly sideways but forward direction. We also have a visual on the persons clothing.
As I mentioned before the focus should on only that footage. Other people on the thread who may also have an interest in cctv and video crime footage will know that some images, and items may be blurred out or erased there is a variety of reasons for this. Some people may have been identified and eliminated as they are innocent or they may have been identified and are crucial to the case so are case sensitive material. The same applies to items, clothing, or vehicles in such cases.

It does take a considerable amount of time to clean up cctv and video and the results vary immensely in what you are able to reveal due to the methods used in blurring and erasing images.

In my opinion the footage shows more than one person.

(Hope it will quote right).

OK, let us assume that we are not seeing what we should see.

(It could be a horrible mistake by LE, not to release the footage as it is, in this case. Horrible. MOO).

But there are so many versions with this video...

First, was it taken at the day of the murders?

At first, I wondered, why were the girls dressed weather-appropriately, and this dude bundled up? Was he sick, did he have laryngitis? But the voice, if it is his voice, is not that hoarse.

Then I wondered if he was traveling from out-of-state, several days in advance, and dressed in anticipation of a different weather. But a kind Websleuther said that the weather in Indiana was warm the whole week before.

Then I thought, what if the video was made on another day? And it did, indeed, reflect some activity, and later led to the girls' murder?

That would explain his clothes.

In short, anything could be wrong with this video. I have been looking at it for such a long time that it started reminding someone. And yes, I believe that there could be two people on that bridge, probably, not more, and that BG is not the person whose sketch we were shown in 2019 (not YBG).

 

[infinit]

(Hope it will quote right).

OK, let us assume that we are not seeing what we should see.

(It could be a horrible mistake by LE, not to release the footage as it is, in this case. Horrible. MOO).

But there are so many versions with this video...

First, was it taken at the day of the murders?

At first, I wondered, why were the girls dressed weather-appropriately, and this dude bundled up? Was he sick, did he have laryngitis? But the voice, if it is his voice, is not that hoarse.

Then I wondered if he was traveling from out-of-state, several days in advance, and dressed in anticipation of a different weather. But a kind Websleuther said that the weather in Indiana was warm the whole week before.

Then I thought, what if the video was made on another day? And it did, indeed, reflect some activity, and later led to the girls' murder?

That would explain his clothes.

In short, anything could be wrong with this video. I have been looking at it for such a long time that it started reminding someone. And yes, I believe that there could be two people on that bridge, probably, not more, and that BG is not the person whose sketch we were shown in 2019 (not YBG).

The video is taken at a time that matches when you'd expect it to be taken if it was just before the murders, he has a heavy shadow on his right side (North East) and is being illuminated from the South West suggesting it is atleast mid-afternoon.

 

[Charlot123]

Yeah I think he's looking where he's going to place his feet. There are certainly frames where his legs seem at full extension. I'd like to think professionals at this kind of thing can take into account the head looking down vs being raised and any potential forwards slant of his upper torso. Having him walking I'd like to think being able to superimpose a skeleton which can anatomically match BG isn't that far fetched, even with his baggy clothing.

My background is cyber security, I've seen some incredible stuff done when it otherwise seemed hopeless. We've managed to track people's paths around multistorey large corporate buildings to the point we could actually path their route, the rooms they went in and times with no/little CCTV purely based on system logs and signal strengths from all the different wireless access points without any actual access to their device. To the point that out of the 2,000+ people who were caught entering and leaving that building on the entrance CCTV that day, we could pin it to 1 person.

So when I see stuff like that, it frustrates me. Perhaps this is just one of those fields that's in its infancy and will get better with time. But personally, I don't think that's the best that could be done. If I can find the time, I might actually have a go. But ideally would need someone with good familiarity of physiology.

JMO.

It is very hard to tell how he looks because we don’t know his age. His neck looks short, and the head, set upon the neck in a specific way. There is a word to describe such habitus, but unfortunately, it has been tainted by early attempts to link constitution with psychopathology. However, I see a wide face, short massive neck sitting between the shoulders, barrel chest, rather short arms. This is who I see on the bridge.
In contrast, the sketch of YBG has a very different neck. Longer. And the head is set on the neck very differently. More gracefully. I think this is what is so different. Not the face - we don’t see the video’s face - but the neck.

 

[keep-it-real]

Trying to understand your theory - do you believe that police know that there are a group of people and have chosen not to release this fact to the public? In your scenario, what would be the value of hiding that information and focusing only on one individual to ask the public for help in identifying?

No I dont believe police are hiding this from the public... I believe they are choosing how they present it to the public. In the UK media releases focusing on one person police believe to be involved in crime are used to provoke a response from that person a scare tactic if you like. It benefits the case in a variety of beneficial ways
1. A response from the person could result in a distinctive change in the pattern of behaviour that the general public would recognise if they suspected the indivdual. Unexpectantly leaving a job, change of vehicle, moving home, leaving the country etc.
2. Contact by the suspect to other members involved in the crime.

I am not sure how much we can speak about the audio here??.. Legally I mean. I am UK based if anyone here has a legal background in US law I would be grateful for some guidance.

That aside for the moment I would ask people to listen again to what Doug Carter in the press conference said when he Speaks about the film the 'Shack' that film features a a journey to a Shack and the encountering of a trio of strangers and a woman. He also addresses directly to the killer 'we know this is about power to you'

What I would deduce from this and the extended audio is that police are looking for 3 men and a woman who could have some kind of involvement in this.

On the subject of his mention of 'power' in my opinion this is could refer to some object left at the crime scene or something being physically marked that symbolises power religious symbols have been known to been used by murders..
One example would be the Trident which in some religions are considered demonic and evil.

In my opinion it would not be unusual for these type of individuals to be quite open even vocal of their interest in this type of subject matter examples would be tattoos, the type of clothing they wear, jewellery, litarature and decorative objects in the home.

These are my opinions only

 

[keep-it-real]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the title of the book that talks so well about evil, death and eternity that Doug Carter referred to. Does he mean the Shack again or a different book?

The Shack by William Paul Young
Mack's youngest daughter, Missy, was abducted during a family vacation and evidence that she may have been brutally murdered is found in an abandoned shack deep in the Oregon wilderness.

 

[minazoe]

why wouldn't they just say they are looking for 3 suspects?

 

[MistyWaters]

why wouldn't they just say they are looking for 3 suspects?

I agree, no point in code talking to the killer/s about information they’re fully aware of while delivering contradictory information to the public, at the same time as seeking tips. IF three men and a women were involved, they’d know it and so if LE knew it too but are merely passing off the information in code to the perpetrators that doesn’t help solve the crime because it keeps the door shut to a tip about a collective group of four people whom somebody might suspect but not tip on considering LE’s focus has been on only one. Same as a religious symbol being left, obviously both the killer and LE are aware of any objects left at the crime scene so I can’t see any benefit of DC code talking information knowing the killer would surely be aware of their discovery.

Over the past 2+ years I think every word spoken by DC in that PC has been turned right-side-up and up-side-down in the search for clues and hidden meanings. I believe what he clearly said, what LE hoped would rattle the perp’s chains was the changed focus toward a younger age range as demonstrated by the new sketch.

JMO

 

[minazoe]

the funny thing about the sketch is that hairline..in the younger sketch you see curly hair..well now, wouldn't you know that JBC really has curly hair and before the crimes you can clearly see the curly shorter hair on Facebook...so what of it now..?

it appears that at some point after Delphi he either started straightening it or blowing it out..it also looks colored. so when you are looking at him now, it is a changed appearance..from his old look..there are also pics of him after he got out of prison where he looks much younger than he is ..I think he can really look different , clean shaven..also really the only thing on the younger sketch that is slightly off is the nose..otherwise I feel it matches him..of course this is after studying his FB and seeing all the different versions of JBC.

so it just seems like we even got him on the hair..he absolutely changed his hair and I wonder what it looks like now that he is in jail.

anyway for me JBC is a match is every way..I would ask you if you have not even entertained the thought of trying to consider him, I would ask you to actually look at this man's Facebook, his whereabouts and proximities to
several crimes...at literally the times they happened.

also here is a guy, he is hiding in plain sight..a violent sadist, pedophile...a would be killer. ..if the police can take him seriously and cannot clear him , maybe you guys that reject him should take a little closer look...just so you can see what everyone else is seeing. His Facebook is still up and I would think that if JBC ends up being BG
y'all are gonna wish you had taken it more seriously before it got taken down.

just sayin.

mOO

 

[infinit]

Does anyone have any thoughts on the title of the book that talks so well about evil, death and eternity that Doug Carter referred to. Does he mean the Shack again or a different book?

The Shack by William Paul Young
Mack's youngest daughter, Missy, was abducted during a family vacation and evidence that she may have been brutally murdered is found in an abandoned shack deep in the Oregon wilderness.

I've always seen it slightly differently to most. The line before is "We try so hard to understand how a person could do something like this to two children." He then goes into the reference to The Shack. I think everyone puts the focus on the girl being murdered element. The other part of The Shack is that Mack kills his father who abused him. To me I've always seen it as they profile the perputrator to have suffered abuse as a child. And that while it's not the same, they're basically saying we know you suffered abuse that has probably contributed to you being so messed up.

JMO.

 

[infinit]

the funny thing about the sketch is that hairline..in the younger sketch you see curly hair..well now, wouldn't you know that JBC really has curly hair and before the crimes you can clearly see the curly shorter hair on Facebook...so what of it now..?

it appears that at some point after Delphi he either started straightening it or blowing it out..it also looks colored. so when you are looking at him now, it is a changed appearance..from his old look..there are also pics of him after he got out of prison where he looks much younger than he is ..I think he can really look different , clean shaven..also really the only thing on the younger sketch that is slightly off is the nose..otherwise I feel it matches him..of course this is after studying his FB and seeing all the different versions of JBC.

so it just seems like we even got him on the hair..he absolutely changed his hair and I wonder what it looks like now that he is in jail.

anyway for me JBC is a match is every way..I would ask you if you have not even entertained the thought of trying to consider him, I would ask you to actually look at this man's Facebook, his whereabouts and proximities to
several crimes...at literally the times they happened.

also here is a guy, he is hiding in plain sight..a violent sadist, pedophile...a would be killer. ..if the police can take him seriously and cannot clear him , maybe you guys that reject him should take a little closer look...just so you can see what everyone else is seeing. His Facebook is still up and I would think that if JBC ends up being BG
y'all are gonna wish you had taken it more seriously before it got taken down.

just sayin.

mOO

I repsectfully disagree on the hairline being perfect.

If you take the Norwood scale, the sketch is very clearly of someone at 01, no kind of receding what so ever. Chadwell is clearly a 2 starting to go towards 3 in July 2017 which I've highlighted below (Hope that's in the rules)

I guess if he had a fringe, he could mask it quite easily, but the sketch has no fringe.

JMO.

 

[keep-it-real]

why wouldn't they just say they are looking for 3 suspects?

LE said more than once ...We are keeping somethings close to our vest

 

[keep-it-real]

I agree, no point in code talking to the killer/s about information they’re fully aware of while delivering contradictory information to the public, at the same time as seeking tips. IF three men and a women were involved, they’d know it and so if LE knew it too but are merely passing off the information in code to the perpetrators that doesn’t help solve the crime because it keeps the door shut to a tip about a collective group of four people whom somebody might suspect but not tip on considering LE’s focus has been on only one. Same as a religious symbol being left, obviously both the killer and LE are aware of any objects left at the crime scene so I can’t see any benefit of DC code talking information knowing the killer would surely be aware of their discovery.

Over the past 2+ years I think every word spoken by DC in that PC has been turned right-side-up and up-side-down in the search for clues and hidden meanings. I believe what he clearly said, what LE hoped would rattle the perp’s chains was the changed focus toward a younger age range as demonstrated by the new sketch.

JMO

Can I politely ask why you think he even mentioned the film the Shack?

 

[infinit]

LE said more than once ...We are keeping somethings close to our vest

Sure, I think there is something they are not sharing. But Carter has a track record for not following the script. And he consistently in every interview uses the words "he" "killer" "person." There is not one slip up where he mentions "they" "killers" "people" "persons" that I can find. I find it hard to imagine he wouldn't have fumbled atleast once in all of the interviews etc he has given.

 

[Charlot123]

No I dont believe police are hiding this from the public... I believe they are choosing how they present it to the public. In the UK media releases focusing on one person police believe to be involved in crime are used to provoke a response from that person a scare tactic if you like. It benefits the case in a variety of beneficial ways
1. A response from the person could result in a distinctive change in the pattern of behaviour that the general public would recognise if they suspected the indivdual. Unexpectantly leaving a job, change of vehicle, moving home, leaving the country etc.
2. Contact by the suspect to other members involved in the crime.

I am not sure how much we can speak about the audio here??.. Legally I mean. I am UK based if anyone here has a legal background in US law I would be grateful for some guidance.

That aside for the moment I would ask people to listen again to what Doug Carter in the press conference said when he Speaks about the film the 'Shack' that film features a a journey to a Shack and the encountering of a trio of strangers and a woman. He also addresses directly to the killer 'we know this is about power to you'

What I would deduce from this and the extended audio is that police are looking for 3 men and a woman who could have some kind of involvement in this.

On the subject of his mention of 'power' in my opinion this is could refer to some object left at the crime scene or something being physically marked that symbolises power religious symbols have been known to been used by murders..
One example would be the Trident which in some religions are considered demonic and evil.

In my opinion it would not be unusual for these type of individuals to be quite open even vocal of their interest in this type of subject matter examples would be tattoos, the type of clothing they wear, jewellery, litarature and decorative objects in the home.

These are my opinions only

Very interesting idea about the trinity, three people involved.

About power. I think DC was merely describing the personality not unlike Amon Goeth. Most SK have something of him, I believe.

However, you say the person was using a symbol of power? A special tool? Not difficult to order in a blacksmith store, I assume. Or maybe, in a farmers’ area, a mere hayfork would have done?

About tattoos, I don’t even know. I remember some SK that felt tattooed skin was unclean. I can imagine that about pierced bodies, they might feel “unclean”. If the BG needed to pose, I think he wanted someone young and clean. Sadly. What does it tell us about the killer himself? Clean? Not all in tattoos?

…And again, Missy Bevers comes to mind, and the small, economical movements of her killer. Could it be a woman? That killer seems to have a tiny problem with the knee. Look at the gait.

LE said more than once ...We are keeping somethings close to our vest

If we think that DC is leading a constant dialogue with the killer…does it mean that the killer likes to play cards? Poker?

 

[Charlot123]

I've always seen it slightly differently to most. The line before is "We try so hard to understand how a person could do something like this to two children." He then goes into the reference to The Shack. I think everyone puts the focus on the girl being murdered element. The other part of The Shack is that Mack kills his father who abused him. To me I've always seen it as they profile the perputrator to have suffered abuse as a child. And that while it's not the same, they're basically saying we know you suffered abuse that has probably contributed to you being so messed up.

JMO.

I have an intuitive feeling that the killer represents a certain connection between his own father and his child, or maybe his father and his brother. Beyond self-evident, something very emotional.

 

[keep-it-real]

Sure, I think there is something they are not sharing. But Carter has a track record for not following the script. And he consistently in every interview uses the words "he" "killer" "person." There is not one slip up where he mentions "they" "killers" "people" "persons" that I can find. I find it hard to imagine he wouldn't have fumbled atleast once in all of the interviews etc he has given.

Dave Bursten said Keep in mind that there is a likliness of possibility of more than one person, were not saying that the person that the voice that you heard is the same as the person here ( he outstretches his hand indicating a different place) he then says this is all very complicated very involved.

I agree they are focusing on one person as the killer again Bursten when on unveiling Sketch 2 pointed directly at it and said we believe this is the person that murdered those two little girls.

But I beleive the evidence points to a killer acting with others to commit this crime.

Take the audio. I am now advised by a WS member with legal knowledge that I can give my interpretation and opinion on it.
In my opinion I hear
The guys:- and then you can take the chick/chicks and rush past her down the hill.

In my opinion this is someone giving others instructions..Is it instructions to how someone is to be abducted?
What came before or after we have no record of could the male whose voice we heard have given instruction to girls as well as guys - maybe.

To listen to the audi can I suggest you use the official recording from the link below.. using in ear headphones and volume as high as you can get it adjust the settings wheel bottom right of the video to 0.75. personally I use just the right ear piece. replay will be needed for you to become accustomed to the slower speed ..you can also adjust the setting again to a lower setting if you feel you need more clarity of a specif word being spoken...
I hope this helps
The audio footage starts at 8.15 in the link