Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #137

[carbuff]

I hope so. Could it be they just have a solid alibi?

With DN that's definitely possible. What was released to the public is kind of fuzzy, but LE might well know more.

 

[MollyDDD]

(respectfully truncated for space)

Great post! I’m glad my ramblings may be a little helpful.

The clothes depends on Delphi, IMO. Rarely anyone dresses like that in my town, especially on the trails, but I would say that some older guys (like, 75-85ish-years-old), farmers/ag people, rural construction or rural automotive workers, and high school guys who highly identify as rural country boys are more likely to wear baggy jeans and a Carhartt-like work coat when out and about. Otherwise, guys dress more along the lines of the mid-range stuff at Kohl’s. However, in the town 45 minutes away, I see A LOT more of the kind of clothes that BG seems to have been wearing. It just depends on the town economy/income and town identity, which I don’t know about Delphi.

The weather is interesting, though. A few days ago, I looked up online weather records for I believe 2/6-2/13/17, and Delphi had hit 60’s and 50’s (!!), before plunging down to the teens for one day then up to 30ish for one day, and then into the 50’s and high 40’s by the time the girls were killed. It wasn’t just that Monday that was warm; it was almost a good 7 day stretch of mostly great weather. In my part of Indiana, once it hits 50 degrees, we’re leaving the coats at home and wearing jeans/maybe shorts/sweaters/sweatshirts. You’ll probably see some people in flip-flops. Overall, what Abby was wearing in the Snapchat photo is what I’d expect for a sunny, no-wind 45 degree day in February (especially following some warmer days before that, especially the 60-degree day), compared to BG who looks downright bundled up. So, I would say the weather turned out WARMER than expected for Indiana in February, except for that one day where it was around 15 degrees (ick). I'd usually expect temperature in the 30's.

It’s just so hard to tell what he’s actually wearing. Is it a light rain coat/windbreaker, or is a Carhartt work coat? Is there a scarf? Is there a hat? Is it a flannel shirt tail or a construction nail pouch? (I'm not meaning to open up this line of discussion again, really. I know it's been speculated for years. I just can't tell, and I can't tell if he was trying to mask how he'd usually dress, or if the image quality makes BG more mysterious than he really is.)

I think he wore bulky clothes to disguise himself.
Looks like a wind breaker to me with a hoodie underneath.
The baggie jeans are seen in a few of his photos on Facebook. There’s one where he’s standing on a cliff with mountains in the background and he has that same stance.
It’s chilling to see it. IMO

 

[MollyDDD]

Please note I have lost the complete toolbar in my reply box which is causing me problems as there are sections in my reply that I am unable to highlight as a matter of importance. Im also finding that some of my replies are not appearing as a seperate reply by as part of the original posters text. Sorry for any confusion...heres hoping it rights its self again soon!

I had the same thing happen with a few of my posts too, drives me crazy.

 

[Imvp2]

I think he wore bulky clothes to disguise himself.
Looks like a wind breaker to me with a hoodie underneath.
The baggie jeans are seen in a few of his photos on Facebook. There’s one where he’s standing on a cliff with mountains in the background and he has that same stance.
It’s chilling to see it. IMO

The wind breaker, that in my opinion, with the weapon imprint worn into the right side, was well worn by BG prior to Delphi. It may be long gone now, but that wind breaker with the weapon impression, someone has got to recall seeing it over the years

 

[JnRyan]

I just got an idea, and I am posting it here. It is not quite about the girls, simply, what to do with all these tips.

I think that the tips database that the Delphi murders case has created might be the largest one in the country, as the reward is huge. And it is very likely that some serial killers are in these tips. Maybe the Bridge Guy is not, although, unlikely, but in itself, the tips, the names, present a huge raw database.

So… I hope that for what I propose, one can simply write a search program. And I propose to use the tip names pool as the database.

Say, there is a name in the tip pool. For this name, one has to write all the addresses where the person has lived (phone numbers, too). And then, write all addresses of his/hers parents, aunts/uncles, grandparents, children, nephews/nieces. Maybe even best friends.

And then make a raw list of all disappearances, murders, sexual assaults in the country.

And run one list against the other. One could change the parameters, such as “within 10 miles”, or “within 30 miles”.

(Another run would be running phone numbers agains the lists of ones that pinged at nearby cell towers on the day of the crime).

And when there are matches, check the dates - if these people could physically be at the places around the murders.

I think this comparison might allow to catch several serial killers. Not necessarily involved in the Delphi case; I am now thinking that “tip bases” could be combined.

I think that all of it can be done via programs.

The idea came from DNA criminology, where the element is building and comparing trees. What I thought was comparing “address trees” with “sexual crime” trees, since modern sex offenders know better than leave DNA. But they have to know the places of their crimes.

Someone mentioned that the Delphi LE group is very small. Small group dealing with large tips base is not productive. While tips can be submitted for different reasons, I believe that “scared” might be the uniting world.

What further filters to use for the names one gets - maybe mode of killing/attack? There is a reason why Delphi and Evansdale are combined, or MB’s case is mentioned there.

In short, when there case has stalled but there is a wealth of information, it can at least be used for other purposes?

What you are describing is what we used in some fraud cases. Also called 'data mining'. I always thought if I could have a database of the phone numbers, with the owner's names, that pinged in the area that afternoon and compared it with the motor vehicle database (assuming such database includes a photo). Going from there to compare the photos against the sketches and video we could get close. Using a 3rd DB, the FBI's tip database, Pyramid, might also help. Depending on the size of what might be the largest of the DB's, motor vehicle records, MS Access might do the trick.

Of course, my idea here is fantasy because a listing of cell phones WITH the owner's data is not going to be allowed as it violates legal decisions or privacy laws. But I can dream.

 

[Charlot123]

What you are describing is what we used in some fraud cases. Also called 'data mining'. I always thought if I could have a database of the phone numbers, with the owner's names, that pinged in the area that afternoon and compared it with the motor vehicle database (assuming such database includes a photo). Going from there to compare the photos against the sketches and video we could get close. Using a 3rd DB, the FBI's tip database, Pyramid, might also help. Depending on the size of what might be the largest of the DB's, motor vehicle records, MS Access might do the trick.

Of course, my idea here is fantasy because a listing of cell phones WITH the owner's data is not going to be allowed as it violates legal decisions or privacy laws. But I can dream.

Yes, but you are trying to make an algorithm to catch the Delphi killer. Which is a great idea because IMHO, manually, they can’t do much with Delphi tips.

I simply think that while the tip database might not be useful to catch the murderer of the girls, statistically, there should be a couple of random serial killers there in general. I just want to let the programs do the job, assuming that these people hunt in previously known places.

Your idea is great for this specific (Delphi) case. It probably could work even if the killer left the cellphone and the car 5 miles away from the CS and walked. It won’t work if he left this cellphone 60 miles away and took only a burner phone with him, but I believe people are more attached to their phones than we think, and that it probably was in his vehicle.

 

[JnRyan]

Yes, but you are trying to make an algorithm to catch the Delphi killer. Which is a great idea because IMHO, manually, they can’t do much with Delphi tips.

I simply think that while the tip database might not be useful to catch the murderer of the girls, statistically, there should be a couple of random serial killers there in general. I just want to let the programs do the job, assuming that these people hunt in previously known places.

Your idea is great for this specific (Delphi) case. It probably could work even if the killer left the cellphone and the car 5 miles away from the CS and walked. It won’t work if he left this cellphone 60 miles away and took only a burner phone with him, but I believe people are more attached to their phones than we think, and that it probably was in his vehicle.

All true, but using the tip database through a database program like MS Access to go after serial killers is really just another variant of the data mining that forensic accountants have been using for the last 10-15 years.

 

[sunshineray]

So if these hypothetical tipsters were searching for information about the case in order to make a decision about if they need to come forward, do you think it is helpful or unhelpful to read opinions stated as facts, such as "They've got him" or "There's no one else in the area who could have committed this type of crime" OR inflations/manipulations of the truth like "LE has shut down all discussion about the Delphi case"? (Which was asserted here but is not true according to MSM sources.)

I think this type of irresponsible posting is patently unhelpful and is the reason WS TOS states that things that are opinions need to be stated as such and things that are facts need to be cited.

So I'll just say this: The murders of Abby and Libby are still unsolved. LE have named NO definite suspects in this case. No one has been arrested for these murders. The tip line is open.
e-Mail: abbyandlibbytip@cacoshrf.com
Tip Line: (844) 459-5786
Indiana State Police: (800) 382-7537
Carroll County Sheriff: (765) 564-2413

It all comes back to what Sheriff Leazenby said and if you take his words literally or not.

My hypothetical tipsters, by the time they're thinking about tipping, already know who the guilty is/are. That was my point, anyone else's opinions wouldn't factor in at all. AJMO

 

[Thechaoz]

What you are describing is what we used in some fraud cases. Also called 'data mining'. I always thought if I could have a database of the phone numbers, with the owner's names, that pinged in the area that afternoon and compared it with the motor vehicle database (assuming such database includes a photo). Going from there to compare the photos against the sketches and video we could get close. Using a 3rd DB, the FBI's tip database, Pyramid, might also help. Depending on the size of what might be the largest of the DB's, motor vehicle records, MS Access might do the trick.

Of course, my idea here is fantasy because a listing of cell phones WITH the owner's data is not going to be allowed as it violates legal decisions or privacy laws. But I can dream.

Only an idiot would bring their phone to a potential murder site.

That being said, it was a very bold murder. In fact, I honestly believe he probably thought he was going to get caught and didn't even care. Had to act on the urge.

Busy day, unusually hot, condensed area in a small town on private property wearing clothes way too thick for the weather.

How could he think he WOULD get away with it?

Oh yes, LE incompetence

 

[katydid23]

I think JBC is the BG. Just can’t figure how he’s got away with it this long.

I think he got away with it for a few reasons---

---It was an opportunity attack---he had no known connection to the girls.
---I don't think there was a sexual assault---so he left no DNA of that type.
---I think the 'killings' were what gives him that kind of pleasure--not SA.
---He was just moving through the area---no connections to reveal or point to
---He left the area and didn't leave a 'footprint'---no job or home in the area
---He didn't tell anyone what he did---he is a lone wolf
---He didn't park nearby---was able to slip away quietly on foot
---He is an experienced criminal
---He knows how to be charming and act normal enough to 'pass.'

 

[keep-it-real]

Only an idiot would bring their phone to a potential murder site.

That being said, it was a very bold murder. In fact, I honestly believe he probably thought he was going to get caught and didn't even care. Had to act on the urge.

Busy day, unusually hot, condensed area in a small town on private property wearing clothes way too thick for the weather.

How could he think he WOULD get away with it?

Oh yes, LE incompetence

In my opinion they/he used Libbys phone to video the whole thing, thats the reason her phone was left at the scene.

I havent discounted that Libbys phone was also used to contact people not present at the Monon Bridge are that day.

JMO

 

[minazoe]

In my opinion they/he used Libbys phone to video the whole thing, thats the reason her phone was left at the scene.

I havent discounted that Libbys phone was also used to contact people not present at the Monon Bridge are that day.

JMO

How interesting..Im gonna say this is very much akin to my feelings too..because I have always thought he recorded the murders so he could watch them later..for a long time I thought he was wearing a go-pro camera with a mouth rig as he crossed the bridge..as a pedo/sadist a recording would be very important to him and I feel like its 80 percent possible he did record or take pictures maybe even with a phone. Yes he could have sent or transferred that file somewhere for safe downloading.. The only thing is I don't think the phone was in an obvious place...can anyone clarify how and where the phone was found? I can't remember.

for me JBC has not put that much effort into concealing , he is just naturally very sneaky
and he got lucky with earlier crimes.

The fact that he was not caught emboldened him..I think he was lusting for attention with the murder of the girls and I do think he attempts sex acts etc..but he knows about DNA from prison and has used that info to conceal his identity.

I think after the murders in Evansdale people have been much more watchful of their kids.. he may not have been able to get the little nine year olds he prefers.

I also think it is possible he would murder adult women too and should not be ruled out as a POI in other possible cases.

mOO

 

[Detective Willy]

Yes, but you are trying to make an algorithm to catch the Delphi killer. Which is a great idea because IMHO, manually, they can’t do much with Delphi tips.

I simply think that while the tip database might not be useful to catch the murderer of the girls, statistically, there should be a couple of random serial killers there in general. I just want to let the programs do the job, assuming that these people hunt in previously known places.

Your idea is great for this specific (Delphi) case. It probably could work even if the killer left the cellphone and the car 5 miles away from the CS and walked. It won’t work if he left this cellphone 60 miles away and took only a burner phone with him, but I believe people are more attached to their phones than we think, and that it probably was in his vehicle.

I like your theory here and if correct our Perp has committed premeditated double homicide. If this is the case LE has him on the shortlist but can’t nail him…..yet.

 

[minazoe]

this little ____er...is the kind of guy who is always on the prowl..in school I am sure he looked to get that one straggler from the pack alone so he could abuse them out of sight..I think what he did is pathological in that he is always going to do this..it's not so much a matter of a plan but actually who he is. He is a walking premeditation, he is ready when you are..he is just going to click the boxes and go...he's fast, he's efficient and he doesn't have to spend a lot of time..he is naturally sneaky so he has a preternatural way of making an assessment and having solutions to possible predicaments filed away in his head.

ADDED. He is a natural criminal..a born criminal. pathologically criminal.

mOO

 

[sandy_80]

I think he got away with it for a few reasons---

---It was an opportunity attack---he had no known connection to the girls.
---I don't think there was a sexual assault---so he left no DNA of that type.
---I think the 'killings' were what gives him that kind of pleasure--not SA.
---He was just moving through the area---no connections to reveal or point to
---He left the area and didn't leave a 'footprint'---no job or home in the area
---He didn't tell anyone what he did---he is a lone wolf
---He didn't park nearby---was able to slip away quietly on foot
---He is an experienced criminal
---He knows how to be charming and act normal enough to 'pass.'

I agree on all points except the last two
he doesnt need to be ( experienced ) to pull this off .. he might have planned and fantasized for a long while like that guy who kidnapped the girl and killed her parents ..the one that escaped

..also he doesn't have to be charming...he could be every bit creepy and scary just the drifter who no one gives a second thought ..

 

[carbuff]

I agree on all points except the last two
he doesnt need to be ( experienced ) to pull this off .. he might have planned and fantasized for a long while like that guy who kidnapped the girl and killed her parents ..the one that escaped

..also he doesn't have to be charming...he could be every bit creepy and scary just the drifter who no one gives a second thought ..

In other cases, it seems like that kind of person is able to turn on charm when he wants to, and then flip to scary and angry in a second.

 

[JnRyan]

I think he got away with it for a few reasons---

---It was an opportunity attack---he had no known connection to the girls.
---I don't think there was a sexual assault---so he left no DNA of that type.
---I think the 'killings' were what gives him that kind of pleasure--not SA.
---He was just moving through the area---no connections to reveal or point to
---He left the area and didn't leave a 'footprint'---no job or home in the area
---He didn't tell anyone what he did---he is a lone wolf
---He didn't park nearby---was able to slip away quietly on foot
---He is an experienced criminal
---He knows how to be charming and act normal enough to 'pass.'

Mostly I agree with these. That first especially as murders by strangers are harder to solve. On the third one, I do believe that even though there may have not been sexual assault he does derive some sexual gratification from the killings. (But that may be what you meant.) On number four, I believe he does have a connection to the area its just not obvious and recent. IOW, some time in his past - maybe middle school - he spent some time in the area maybe with a relative who no longer lives there or is deceased. I believe it is very likely he doesn't even live in Carroll County, let alone Delphi. He could even currently reside in Indianapolis, Louisville KY or Chicago IL and that is your fifth point.

'He didn't park nearby' - I tend to believe he did but I'm not 100% on that point. To the best of our knowledge LE only has one unidentified vehicle and it was parked at the CPS building. Or at least that is the only one LE has mentioned to the public. But that doesn't mean that is the vehicle the killer was driving. It is probably an obvious assumption that this person went on the trails, but it is probably just that - an assumption. For all we know the driver parked there for some other obscure reason and never went out on the trails. But for most of us we have an unidentified person (sketches) and an unidentified vehicle (CPS building) and so we put them together.

(I still can't get past LE bringing up the vehicle over 2 years after the murders. I can't remember the cars parked around me at a nearby trailhead two months ago and forget two years ago. Even if there was a vehicle parked on the shoulder of the road leading to the trailhead - i.e., outside the normal parking area - I don't believe I would remember enough details about it if it were last week. And if this was the car the killer arrived in, LE has to be relying on the public because he isn't going to come forward and say, "OK, you got me.". If the driver did use the trails and wasn't the killer and they are a male they're not likely to come forward as they will likely get the same treatment as all the other POI/suspects we've seen in the media. Then again, I wonder if LE sometime before the April 2019 PC went over the vehicles one more time and said, "Oops, we missed this one.")

Experienced criminal. Yeah, I believe it. It may have not been murder or rape, but likely some crime against a person. I don't believe this killer just walked out on the trail that day and said, "Oh, I'm going to kill those two girls and then go back to being a law abiding citizen.".

 

[minazoe]

why is it important to know how he left or how he got there? I don't get the fascination over how he comes and goes from the park..people come and go from the park all the time..he had to get there somehow and leave somehow..there are several choices..maybe he borrowed a car that day..maybe he left on a spaceship..maybe he walked ..so much emphasis on which path..etc..I just don't get it...mOO

 

[keep-it-real]

Mostly I agree with these. That first especially as murders by strangers are harder to solve. On the third one, I do believe that even though there may have not been sexual assault he does derive some sexual gratification from the killings. (But that may be what you meant.) On number four, I believe he does have a connection to the area its just not obvious and recent. IOW, some time in his past - maybe middle school - he spent some time in the area maybe with a relative who no longer lives there or is deceased. I believe it is very likely he doesn't even live in Carroll County, let alone Delphi. He could even currently reside in Indianapolis, Louisville KY or Chicago IL and that is your fifth point.

'He didn't park nearby' - I tend to believe he did but I'm not 100% on that point. To the best of our knowledge LE only has one unidentified vehicle and it was parked at the CPS building. Or at least that is the only one LE has mentioned to the public. But that doesn't mean that is the vehicle the killer was driving. It is probably an obvious assumption that this person went on the trails, but it is probably just that - an assumption. For all we know the driver parked there for some other obscure reason and never went out on the trails. But for most of us we have an unidentified person (sketches) and an unidentified vehicle (CPS building) and so we put them together.

(I still can't get past LE bringing up the vehicle over 2 years after the murders. I can't remember the cars parked around me at a nearby trailhead two months ago and forget two years ago. Even if there was a vehicle parked on the shoulder of the road leading to the trailhead - i.e., outside the normal parking area - I don't believe I would remember enough details about it if it were last week. And if this was the car the killer arrived in, LE has to be relying on the public because he isn't going to come forward and say, "OK, you got me.". If the driver did use the trails and wasn't the killer and they are a male they're not likely to come forward as they will likely get the same treatment as all the other POI/suspects we've seen in the media. Then again, I wonder if LE sometime before the April 2019 PC went over the vehicles one more time and said, "Oops, we missed this one.")

Experienced criminal. Yeah, I believe it. It may have not been murder or rape, but likely some crime against a person. I don't believe this killer just walked out on the trail that day and said, "Oh, I'm going to kill those two girls and then go back to being a law abiding citizen.".

re the car and the sketch of the younger male if it comes to that are product of intellignce gathered LE didnt have details of these beforehand, someone offered up this information, someone under pressure and was either facing jail time or their partner/wife was and they did a deal.
Did one or more of the group arrive in the car, most likely, was it abandoned on purpose most likely... time will tell.

Was it a sexually motivated crime?.. No this wasnt a crime based on sexual pleasure at the press conference Doug Carter addresses the murderer and says this is all about 'POWER' to you! This crime was committed to publicly show the 'POWER' the murderer is able exert over someone. Wether that was power over the victim or power over someone connected to the victim is yet to be determind. My opinion is that this crime was videoed by the person/s involved and it was most likely videod using Libbys phone or a phone left at the scene.
Its not enough these days for criminals competing for status or revenge to verbally threaten or physically beat people up or shoot them outright, real power comes from fear, fear that reaches new depths of humiliation torture and suffering and showing this in real time. This visual impact leaves the deepest and most profound effect on the lives of people wether they know the victim or not.

The use of hard drugs have played a part in the acceleration of such crimes.

These are my opinions only

 

[minazoe]

sex crimes are always about power..and these kinds of murders are always about sex.

mOO