CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #5

[Pumphouse363]

I paid only 373k for my home in Mariposa. Houses are dirt cheap and attract a diverse crowd. Moo partying…rentals…unknown persons is an issue, and I believe Googling will confirm what I’m saying. Idk what led to this tragedy but if using Occam’s Razor, HS is not on my list.
I don’t mind eating crow, if wrong.
Look at what we’ve been told thus far. Use critical thinking skills. All moo.

I agree with your thinking on property rentals with Airbnb - you just don’t know who is using your property. I think that HS will be decided upon by LE so the family will accept this explanation after all these weeks of waiting. It will be a lot less hassle and cost than a murder investigation and the rest of the world can go about their business. I don’t mind eating crow if wrong either. MOO

 

[Parsnip]

Look at what we’ve been told thus far. Use critical thinking skills. All moo.

Rsbm
Can you elaborate on the need for critical thinking skills? Ie, where they have been applied, where they have not been applied, etc.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

We have heard from @Runswithdogs that dogs could succumb faster to heat than humans. From the link, unrelated to this story: The dog died from heat; the hikers were also suffering but lived, and were charged with animal cruelty. Dog dies of heat exposure on Scottsdale hiking trail; owner cited

We have heard from @Runswithdogs that dogs could succumb faster to heat than humans. From the link, unrelated to this story: The dog died from heat; the hikers were also suffering but lived, and were charged with animal cruelty. Dog dies of heat exposure on Scottsdale hiking trail; owner cited

Good find. That was a similar situation to this case, except they got help. "The department responded to reports that the hikers and a dog were suffering from heat-related issues on Lost Dog Wash Trail in the McDowell Sonoran Preserve just before 12:15 p.m. The hikers were in "heat distress" and the dog had already died when crews arrived despite lifesaving efforts by the owner, officials said."

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

Didn't they go to the museum on Saturday?

It was reported that Jon and the baby were at the Yosemite museum on Friday in an earlier thread, not sure if EC was there too. MOO.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

I've wondered about that too. Yes, LE used the singular, "water bladder", and did not specify who was carrying it. Could be either one of them, you can add one to a baby backpack, one by Osprey says "Pocketing provides storage for hydration reservoirs, layers, snacks, and more" for example. You can easily remove them from an old pack, or buy just the bladder with hose to add it to another pack. Perhaps they distributed the load by having EC carry the water. Last possibility, they did both have them, they usually are an individual item. I tried one, didn't like it for several reasons. One disadvantage is you can't readily judge how much water you have left- imagine a 3L bladder, vs three clear 1 liter bottles. You know exactly how fast you are going thru your water with the bottles.

Agree it is hard to judge how much is left, also harder to get out to put in dog bowl, pour on a cooling cloth, etc.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

@PerplexedPatty can you clarify please? Are you giving an opinion that fentanyl would be identifiable in an autopsy or do you know this with certainty?

And to what are you referring when you call it a legal drug? That was not my impression, excluding perhaps use by anesthesiologists.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[HannahJJJ]

I agree with your thinking on property rentals with Airbnb - you just don’t know who is using your property. I think that HS will be decided upon by LE so the family will accept this explanation after all these weeks of waiting. It will be a lot less hassle and cost than a murder investigation and the rest of the world can go about their business. I don’t mind eating crow if wrong either. MOO

i haven't read all the recent posts so someone may have already said this...if the family has any suspicion at all of foul play, i can't see that they would accept hs "after all these weeks of waiting...will be a lot less hassle and cost of a murder investigation...". if my son or daughter, my grandchild, Oski might have been murdered, even small chance, I would want not want a Single Stone left unturned.

 

[PerplexedPatty]

@PerplexedPatty can you clarify please? Are you giving an opinion that fentanyl would be identifiable in an autopsy or do you know this with certainty?

And to what are you referring when you call it a legal drug? That was not my impression, excluding perhaps use by anesthesiologists.

Thanks for clarifying.

Fentanyl is not meth, coke or heroine, imo.
Fentanyl is a recognized controlled substance, imo.
More Fentanyl: What You Should Know
All moo, of course.

 

[rahod1]

@PerplexedPatty can you clarify please? Are you giving an opinion that fentanyl would be identifiable in an autopsy or do you know this with certainty?

And to what are you referring when you call it a legal drug? That was not my impression, excluding perhaps use by anesthesiologists.

Thanks for clarifying.

I think the original poster was indicating it's an RX Drug>>>Ergo *legal* when prescribed.
Also it can be identified at autopsy
Death by fentanyl overdose leads to indictment of two men on federal drug charges
"Richmond Hill Police officers initiated an investigation Aug. 12, 2020, after a male victim was found dead in a residential pool. An autopsy indicated the man died from a fatal dose of fentanyl"

 

[NSamuelle]

Good find. That was a similar situation to this case, except they got help. "The department responded to reports that the hikers and a dog were suffering from heat-related issues on Lost Dog Wash Trail in the McDowell Sonoran Preserve just before 12:15 p.m. The hikers were in "heat distress" and the dog had already died when crews arrived despite lifesaving efforts by the owner, officials said."

I have not been able to find any stories about babies or young children dying of heatstroke on hikes, but that’s not entirely surprising as it would be rare for anyone to expose a baby to high temps for a prolonged period of time (or carry a dependent in high heat, unlike a dog who could trot alongside you until they couldn’t).

 

[PerplexedPatty]

I think the original poster was indicating it's an RX Drug>>>Ergo *legal* when prescribed.
Also it can be identified at autopsy
Death by fentanyl overdose leads to indictment of two men on federal drug charges
"Richmond Hill Police officers initiated an investigation Aug. 12, 2020, after a male victim was found dead in a residential pool. An autopsy indicated the man died from a fatal dose of fentanyl"

Yes, thanks. And we are not privy to autopsy results in the Gerrish -Chung deaths, afaik. We only know autopsies did not answer questions and autopsied samples were sent for further toxicology testing. Finally, we know “illegal drugs” are off the list. A lot of “legal drugs” are fatal when used inappropriately, moo. Insulin, succinylcholine, fentanyl, to name a few. All MOO

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

I think the original poster was indicating it's an RX Drug>>>Ergo *legal* when prescribed.
Also it can be identified at autopsy
Death by fentanyl overdose leads to indictment of two men on federal drug charges
"Richmond Hill Police officers initiated an investigation Aug. 12, 2020, after a male victim was found dead in a residential pool. An autopsy indicated the man died from a fatal dose of fentanyl"

Illegal fentanyl is a MAJOR cause of over dose deaths, I'm sure they have that testing process streamlined. I GREATLY doubt they test for that last. MOO, using my well-honed critical thinking skills.

 

[HannahJJJ]

Fentanyl is not meth, coke or heroine, imo.
Fentanyl is a recognized controlled substance, imo.
More Fentanyl: What You Should Know
All moo, of course.

I only skimmed the article, will go back later when I have time to read it more thoroughly. Ty.

Fentanyl is tasteless, odorless? And somewhere I read some weeks ago that Fentanyl can cause a muscle/rigor mortis-like reaction in some living people due to dopamine release. I wonder if this applies when the person has died? I keep going back to LE saying that JG was in a seated position...although I realize that seated when deceased can have a completely different look.

 

[Parsnip]

Rsbm
Can you elaborate on the need for critical thinking skills? Ie, where they have been applied, where they have not been applied, etc.

Just putting this out there again. Where has this thread neglected critical thinking skills?

 

[jonjon747]

I’m thinking they might wanted to do something as banal and non-committal as “checking it out”. Perhaps with a view to doing a “shakedown” of the new baby carrier.

I also think they might have got lulled into letting their guard down, thinking the baby carrier would be a lot cooler and faster to hike in than the former kangaroo pouch. It’s just that the new baby carrier was not going to mitigate the heat in the way they anticipated.

Sorry but that scenario just doesn't check out for me.
They both ignored the hottest month of the year? very unlikely and the history of JG's hiking record from Alltrails tells us he was never a high risk, long distant hiker.
Not having a thought of getting lost in the middle of unrecognized trail shouldn't be even considered as the base of any theory. MOO
What time were they expecting to return to their vehicle on a scorching hot day?

 

[Curious_in_NC]

I think the original poster was indicating it's an RX Drug>>>Ergo *legal* when prescribed.
Also it can be identified at autopsy
Death by fentanyl overdose leads to indictment of two men on federal drug charges
"Richmond Hill Police officers initiated an investigation Aug. 12, 2020, after a male victim was found dead in a residential pool. An autopsy indicated the man died from a fatal dose of fentanyl"

Fentanyl is exceptionally potent. In the US it's a schedule II controlled drug, the highest category of "legal" control. The vast majority is used by anesthesiologists for surgery. To the extent it's prescribed in the US it's mostly as either fentanyl patches or nasal spray for chronic pain such as with cancer. I'd think any patches would have been easily identified at autopsy. MOO

 

[rahod1]

Not ruled out list (please add to this)

murder/homicide
Poison
Heat stroke
Environmental (algae mats/blooms)
Natural water sources (pond/stream/river)

MOO>> Occam's razor is often stated as an injunction not to make more assumptions than you absolutely need
Given:
* family/dog found on steep trail with no shade
*Seen approaching area around 7:45AM with verified temp nearby (El Portal) 85F@8AM and 92F at 9AM reaching near 100F at 11AM in SHADE at higher elevation from where they were found in no shade
*Prints compatible with family and dog found going DOWN HC Trail and bodies found approximately
5 1/2 miles from start of HC Trail head
*Infant and dog 100% dependent on adults.( If adults perish in heat so do dependents, it's not FOUR dyeing independently of each other).
Of the list in the above quote, which manner/cause of death requires the LEAST NUMBER of assumptions to explain cause/manner of death? I rest my case. MOO

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

MOO>> Occam's razor is often stated as an injunction not to make more assumptions than you absolutely need
Given:
* family/dog found on steep trail with no shade
*Seen approaching area around 7:45AM with verified temp nearby (El Portal) 85F@8AM and 92F at 9AM reaching near 100F at 11AM in SHADE at higher elevation from where they were found in no shade
*Prints compatible with family and dog found going DOWN HC Trail and bodies found approximately
5 1/2 miles from start of HC Trail head
*Infant and dog 100% dependent on adults.( If adults perish in heat so do dependents, it's not FOUR dyeing independently of each other).
Of the list in the above quote, which manner/cause of death requires the LEAST NUMBER of assumptions to explain cause/manner of death? I rest my case. MOO

Excellent summary, fits the information we have gotten from the sheriff and MSM interviews with the sheriff.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

Fentanyl is not meth, coke or heroine, imo.
Fentanyl is a recognized controlled substance, imo.
More Fentanyl: What You Should Know
All moo, of course.

I think the original poster was indicating it's an RX Drug>>>Ergo *legal* when prescribed.
Also it can be identified at autopsy
Death by fentanyl overdose leads to indictment of two men on federal drug charges
"Richmond Hill Police officers initiated an investigation Aug. 12, 2020, after a male victim was found dead in a residential pool. An autopsy indicated the man died from a fatal dose of fentanyl"

Thank you both for your replies.

 

[Adrenaline]

Fentanyl is an opioid. Probably closest in character to Heroin in general. Possibly slightly more euphoric. And about as lethal as heroin with respiratory depression. This was my area. Opioids are physical and emotional pain killers. Deep seated addiction is virtually always to manage deep seated emotional pain. Serious addiction then keeps itself going too. I consider opioid dependency as a drug solution-problem. Most dependent people don’t want to be cured. They’ve already found their cure.

I would suspect that Jon and Ellen would have been relatively naive to opioids and therefore quite susceptible to being poisoned with it. If that in fact was what was used.

Something was used IMO. Certainly if they were trying to escape up that track in heat, a respiratory depressant wouldn’t have helped. They’d have needed all the oxygen they could get. Though paradoxically some extreme athletes use opioids to get thru the “pain barrier” they experience in high marathon swimming /running type competitions.