CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #5

[5W's]

The drone pilot would fry in that heat. No, a biplane would make more sense, and that's a proven method. North by Northwest. MOO

I'm not sure what a biplane is however, drones are used for warfare in war torn places such the Middele East. I realize those are pretty sophisticated, but if those drones can be operated from far than its possible the operator doesn't have to be close by. Unfortunately its very efficient and at the same time a terrifying thought.

 

[5W's]

I posted earlier, this tragedy reminds me of a swimmer who perishes while trying to overcome a rip tide current. They start the swim unaware of the rip tide presence OR they are aware and think they can manage/avoid it. The family new it was hot, but thought they could *manage it*. They planned (MOO) to hike down to river and then back up the same trail, but by the time they reached the bottom and hour later, they realized the hike back up in the HOTTER temps would be too much for them, so they continued DOWN the river which would be much easier (level..perhaps more shade). They probably weren't familiar with barren steep SL back up (MOO). I don't think positing a *diminished mental capacity* as a reason for taking the hike in the first place is a plausible one. Just MOO.

My point was if the adults were under the influence of something perhaps even a sudden illness or unknowingly having ingested something that impaired their judgement. That's is the only reason I can think of as to why JG/EC would willingly put their vulnerable dependents and themselves at risk of death knowing how high the temperature was going to get that day.

 

[Lex Parsimoniae]

BBM
Perhaps, but *Camelbak* is not the most popular....MOO>> Doesn't qualify to reach *generic* status. So I take what LE said as fact. If they wanted to do what you say, then they should have said *Camelbak Style* bladder, but they identified it as a Camelbak bladder. MOO

They invented the category, the rest are knock-offs. From their company history:
TODAY, CAMELBAK IS A HOUSEHOLD NAME
A lot has changed since our days of an IV bag in a tube sock sold by a motorcycle-riding sales force of one, but our core values remain the same—it takes courage, conviction, and imagination to quench our thirst for better—from inventing the hydration category to becoming the world's leading maker of hydration solutions. MOO

 

[5W's]

They WERE exposed to something simultaneously. Extreme heat. They were found together because they were a family. When a family member can't go on, you don't just leave them. MOO, based on my family, yours may be different.

But, another way to look at it is that an able bodied family member who may not be in as bad a condition as the others would go look for help as it looks like EC was trying to do. MOO.

 

[5W's]

Oh temperature does indeed affect a drone to some degree. How much would depend on what type of drone and what its flight characteristics would be to some degree, but also temp would have an effect on simple things like battery life as well. I'm not sure that how temperature would affect a drone would be so much of a factor in whether anyone should consider the idea of a drone being involved in a nefarious plan so much as the simple question of whether or not a weaponized drone might be involved in a nefarious plan to begin with though.

The only reason I suggested the drone was because LE didn't mention anything about other footprints human/animal. So there is some ambiguity IMO about the footprints. The ones found could have also been there from this family on another day in cooler temperatures. It was for these reasons I imagined a scenario such as a drone.

 

[katydid23]

Not to be argumentative but I don't believe HS would suddenly occur. Someone posted what seems like a suggestion that HS would occur very quickly, yes after doing something strenuous in overly hot temperatures. In JG/EC's case we don't know for sure that they did the entire loop. Being experienced hikers I doubt that they would spend hours doing this hike with a baby and pet dog. We know that they had only a little bit of water left in their water bladder. If they had more water bladders then LE would have said so. LE specifically said one water bladder. LE would have said that the family had enough water with them for the entire hike. All MOO. I think something may have spooked them into doing the entire hike if they did so if no other footprints were found then possibly a drone. The operator threatened them and they did the entire loop. They did it under duress. Then yes HS would happen plus shock. On the other hand if they didn't do the entire hike then how could HS happen to them so quickly earlier in the morning and close to their vehicle. The way EC was found it was like she was desperately going back to the vehicle with what energy she could muster. HS causes people to be confused. On EC's part trying to go back to their vehicle was not a sign of confusion rather it was an attempt to get help since she knew the phone wasn't working. MOO.

As to the question of 'HS suddenly occurring' ----

In infants and canines, it DOES suddenly occur. That is the danger of this deadly affliction. It happens very quickly and is very hard to turn it around without lots of cool water, cold packs, shade and rest.

In the adults, it wouldn't have come on suddenly. But they would have spent so much time and energy trying to help the baby and their beloved dog, and used so much of their water trying to cool down the distressed baby, that bad things would eventually happen.

They would be out in the sun for a lot longer than planned, have very little water left, no shade, and still have a lot of hiking left to do to get to safety.

 

[katydid23]

But what on earth is the motive?? does anyone stand to gain from these murders? Is there anyone from their pasts that may not have accepted this relationship It's hard to fathom. mOO

And how does someone poison someone's bladder water? Wouldn't he/she have filled it that morning of the hike? Who else could have gotten to that bladder and poisoned it?

And if so, wouldn't that have been determined in the Tox results?

 

[katydid23]

If this was mentioned, apologies in advance.

I have 5 children. We hike a lot in all conditions in Colorado. If my child in the hiking pack was having medical issues, they would not still be in the pack. The dad was sitting with the baby in the pack next to him. Weird, no? If she had even been unconscious there’s just no way, in my opinion, she’d still be in that carrier.

So, it leads me to believe she was fine or at least not symptomatic when whatever befell the parents had taken place.

Also, what mother would leave baby with an unconscious father? No way, imho. (Nothing to slight the mother intended, just my personal feeling on that part of things).

They may have placed the baby in the pack, after she had already was unconscious?

 

[IceIce9]

They WERE exposed to something simultaneously. Extreme heat. They were found together because they were a family. When a family member can't go on, you don't just leave them. MOO, based on my family, yours may be different.

I would say that it is common for a family member to get help for other family members, if they are able.

 

[Pumphouse363]

Just an example of how quickly things can go wrong, even with experienced hikers: My dad and I were hiking in a remote part of Death Valley, in the summer. We were well-prepared with a car full of water, ice, snacks etc.

We were driving a rental car that we had picked up at the airport. Unbeknownst to us, the rental car had a “safety” feature where the doors locked automatically if the keys were left in the ignition.

We had parked in a spot off a gravel road, and were going to get our backpacks, water, hats, sunblock, etc. out of the back seat. We got out of the car and both shut our doors at the same time, and heard a loud “click” as all four doors locked.

We were locked out of our car, in 115 degree heat, somewhere deep into Death Valley. We hadn’t seen another human being for hours. Our ample supply of water, food, and ice was inside the car, along with cellphones, maps, etc. We weren’t even in an actual parking lot. We hadn’t let anyone know where we were going to be that day, as we were on a ten day trip hiking trails in three states with no set itinerary.

Fortunately I had been able to force something in beside the rear window, making enough of a gap that I could trigger the lock. We would have broken a window to get in if we needed to.

But it did make us think about all the things that could go wrong. We only had one key to the vehicle, what if we had lost it while hiking? And why didn’t we let anyone know our itinerary?

When you are hiking in extreme conditions truly one lapse in judgement can be fatal.

I’m so glad you made it. Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences.

Yeah, the sheriff said “They’re smart, they know hiking and what type of gear you need or don’t need for the amount of time you’re out there, and it appears it was a day hike.” But he only mentions one water bladder. 2-3 liters is typical, but I checked, they're available up to 6 liters. We probably won't get much more detail until the case is closed, if then. What would be cool is if Matthias Gafni (author of the excellent "Not One Clue" article about this case) would write an in-depth article, like his "One Hiker's Peak of Desperation" article. I just sent him an email asking him to do that.

I don’t see how the sheriff could make those assertions. It was Steven Jeffe who told the media he thought ‘it was a day hike’ as opposed to an overnight camping because Jon was due to work on Monday. If, as the sheriff implies, they ‘ know hiking and know what type of gear you need or don’t need for a day hike’ then why are people speculating that they didn’t?
We can’t always prepare for every eventuality that may occur and may misjudge situations and events. The fact that you quote the sheriff making the above-mentioned observation makes it even more difficult to accept the initial ‘bad decision’ to go on a day hike with a dog and a baby in the circumstances they ostensibly chose to do so.
It makes no sense whatsoever. MOO

 

[GatorFL]

According to the "Not One Clue" article "The family also had a backpack with a bladder that held a small amount of water, the sheriff said", but the Camelbak brand name is like Thermos or Kleenex, it gets used as a general term for any brand of "water bladder". It does seem unlikely that it was larger than 3L, as they aren't common, but MSR for example makes 4L and 6L bladders.

MSR actually makes them up to 10L. But they're not for day hiking, it's more of a portable bag for basecamp water. I've never seen someone carrying bigger than a 3L. Much easier to have the 3L and supplement w 1L bottles for a day hike.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

This thread is like Groundhog Day. The same questions, the same answers, the same theories, around and around as new people join and don't read prior posts. (ie if you have trail questions, check the maps and posts provided by @RedHaus first.)

IMO, there are only two reasons LE hasn't given a new public announcement:

1. They're waiting to brief all close family members with results which will not be popular with them, ie Heat Stroke. (J and E too smart for that. . . )

2. They have questions that point to foul play and are holding cards close.

Any other reasons? I can't quite believe all test results aren't in unless this case is the bottom priority of all state, federal test agencies.

As always, I am MOOing.

 

[RedHaus]

This thread is like Groundhog Day. The same questions, the same answers, the same theories, around and around as new people join and don't read prior posts. (ie if you have trail questions, check the maps and posts provided by @RedHaus first.)

RSBM
Yes, @neesaki, here is the map @MrsEmmaPeel mentioned. I'm reposting it to avoid further "Groundhog'in". AFAIK there is no "duplicate" or "confusing" trail names with respect to Savage-Lundy, where the family was found. But as far as roads and trails named after Mr. Hite, there are numerous confusing iterations.

Interesting, if you look at this graphic carefully, the two blue circles indicate a "loop" of sorts. Each involve similar trail names and switchbacks on one section. Since putting this together, I've wondered if the family was disoriented somehow and attempted the 'wrong' loop. Perhaps they intended to do the popular Hite Cove Trail.

I also questioned ^^^ whether the MSM report JG had 'researched' trails the night before was actually JG researching the well traveled Hite Cove Trail and not the Hites Cove OHV Trail. In other words, does anyone know what exactly JG researched on 8/14 and if in fact it was anywhere near where they actually hiked on Sunday?

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

The HC part of the potential loop the family hiked might for clarity best be referred to as the HC OHV road, since it was maintained and used for that purpose. MOO

Thanks, @Auntie Cipation. You are far more patient than I am. Hites Cove OHV is our name for the trail the Mariposa.org group calls Hite Cove Access Road. It is an extension of Hite Cove Rd (where they parked) and allows access to the Merced River. It can be hiked or driven by Off-Highway-Vehicles.

Savage-Lundy is the only true and maintained hiking trail to the Merced River at this location. We've covered this extensively. Also, the question of why they might walk down HC OHV rather than SL. Once again, I will say that footsteps leading from the vehicle -- given all the unloading and unloading that comes with child, dog and supplies-- should clearly point in one direction. MOO.

 

[RedHaus]

IMO, there are only two reasons LE hasn't given a new public announcement:

1. They're waiting to brief all close family members with results which will not be popular with them, ie Heat Stroke. (J and E too smart for that. . . )
2. They have questions that point to foul play and are holding cards close.

Any other reasons? I can't quite believe all test results aren't in unless this case is the bottom priority of all state, federal test agencies.

RS&BBM
I agree, @MrsEmmaPeel.

I would add that another cause for delay could be a confusing array of manners and/or causes of death across the four family members. Piecing together the puzzle may pose a significant challenge. There could be for instance, at least two different manner of death - homicide and accident, or cause of death - heatstroke and poison. IMO.

 

[NSamuelle]

This thread is like Groundhog Day. The same questions, the same answers, the same theories, around and around as new people join and don't read prior posts. (ie if you have trail questions, check the maps and posts provided by @RedHaus first.)

IMO, there are only two reasons LE hasn't given a new public announcement:

1. They're waiting to brief all close family members with results which will not be popular with them, ie Heat Stroke. (J and E too smart for that. . . )

2. They have questions that point to foul play and are holding cards close.

Any other reasons? I can't quite believe all test results aren't in unless this case is the bottom priority of all state, federal test agencies.

As always, I am MOOing.

MOO, I lean towards foul play as the likeliest explanation for the delay. Can’t compare departments, but LE in Kreycik’s case was quick to conclude heat stroke even though the body was in much worse condition. I doubt they even completed all toxicology tests.

MOO because I don’t have experience with forensics (just the clinical side of medicine), but I am assuming that tox results would only take this long 1) due to severe understaffing - doesn’t make sense, they should outsource 2) if a chemical signature was detected that they did not expect, leading to additional tests, or 3) if they could not readily ID the signature or were still looking for something suggested by physical findings but not confirmed on a chemical level.

And, sorry to repeat myself, but the necropsy and water tox results taking this long does not make sense to me in the absence of some very sensitive results.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

@RedHaus I think either loop on your map was too much for the weather that day and I don't think the family would have intended to tackle either.

But if the western part of the Highway 140 trail is labelled "easy" (I'm saying if, don't know if that's actually true) I could see them deciding to do an easy mile or two that morning.

And then, because they ended up on the wrong HC (maybe because they saw it on a road sign and weren't aware there are multiple HC trails), found themselves in trouble. And for reasons we don't know they ended up doing the loop and coming up Savage-Lundy as opposed to backtracking on HC OHV road.

 

[minazoe]

MOO, I lean towards foul play as the likeliest explanation for the delay. Can’t compare departments, but LE in Kreycik’s case was quick to conclude heat stroke even though the body was in much worse condition. I doubt they even completed all toxicology tests.

MOO because I don’t have experience with forensics (just the clinical side of medicine), but I am assuming that tox results would only take this long 1) due to severe understaffing - doesn’t make sense, they should outsource 2) if a chemical signature was detected that they did not expect, leading to additional tests, or 3) if they could not readily ID the signature or were still looking for something suggested by physical findings but not confirmed on a chemical level.

And, sorry to repeat myself, but the necropsy and water tox results taking this long does not make sense to me in the absence of some very sensitive results.

weird huh?? if this is foul play as you suggest this is a very weird case and since they ruled out homicide perhaps a bit prematurely as something is slowing down the COD from being publicised...what could show in the final tox report?

 

[Noemia]

weird huh?? if this is foul play as you suggest this is a very weird case and since they ruled out homicide perhaps a bit prematurely as something is slowing down the COD from being publicised...what could show in the final tox report?

I may be wrong, but I think they ruled out suicide, not homicide.

 

[Auntie Cipation]

They ruled out violent homicide as in gunshot, stabbing, blunt force trauma of any sort.

But not all homicide. MOO