CA - Jonathan Gerrish, Ellen Chung, daughter, 1 & dog, suspicious death hiking area, Aug 2021 #6

[ItalyReader]

BBM
I completely agree, @IceIce9. That is why I find myself continuing to shake the proverbial branch.

ETA: bolded emphasis

It’s an interesting angle, but what do you make of JG’s mapping way points around the loop?

Why would he methodically force the app to map that specific 8 mile loop, by putting in way points along the path, if he only intended a short stroll?

 

[ItalyReader]

BBM
I completely agree, @IceIce9. That is why I find myself continuing to shake the proverbial branch.

ETA: bolded emphasis

It’s an interesting angle, but what do you make of JG’s mapping way points around the loop?

Why would he methodically force the app to map that specific 8 mile loop, by putting in way points along the path, if he only intended a short stroll?

It’s an interesting angle, but what do you make of JG’s mapping way points around the loop?

Why would he methodically force the app to map that specific 8 mile loop, by putting in way points along the path, if he only intended a short stroll?

ok I just read @RickshawFan’s theory (I think theirs) that in the GC mindset it was a short hike. That is compellingly possibile even though to the rest of us it is not short.

 

[5W's]

How would any of this have implications for this case, though? We know they weren't shot or assaulted. They apparently weren't robbed, not that they would have been carrying any valuables on a hike, anyway. We also know that JC researched the trail prior to their hike, and footprints corresponding to the family and pet were found, that indicated they'd done most of the loop. Those footprints weren't accompanied by any others. We also know they had a history of underestimating the potential effect of heat on their "adventures", per EC's IG posts.

What your research does say to me, though, is that their "dream" location they'd moved to, with starry-eyed visions of raising their child in nature, was poorly researched. Yikes! I wonder what their friends' opinions of life in Mariposa county are. A good place to raise a family? I wonder how people rationalize decisions like that. Ignorance may be bliss, until it kills you...

Can you point out those IG posts if its possible?

 

[5W's]

I think some of the questions about the amount of water they had and their clothing and backpack are beside the point. I don't think there's any amount of water or any type of clothing (except perhaps insulated cooling suits laden with ice?) that could have prevented heat stroke in this scenario. I keep going back to the temps between 107-109, direct sun, heat radiating off the terrain, the exertion of carrying a baby, and the exertion of hiking uphill on Savage-Lundy. 104 F is the danger zone body temp.

Dehydration was listed as a likely additional factor, but more water wouldn't have prevented heat stroke.

At the end of the day, the main lesson from this case is to not go hiking in such hot weather.

I don't mean to argue here but the amount of water, the type of clothing and how much they were carrying are absolutely relevant to such a devastating hike in such temperatures. I cannot see how they are not relevant. Without water on such a hike is death, not even wearing a hat, how could they walk so far without these provisions? Its not possible. Especially at 109 degrees. At the beginning of their hike they would at least think about this when they had the judgement. So there are questions. LE did they're work with what they had so there is no questioning that. For example if wind blew away footprints LE can't address that. They have to work with what they have. Its as simple as that. There is no explanation as to how the family managed to walk as far as it did without dying sooner than completing the full loop.

 

[HannahJJJ]

Sorry, I still don't have the hang of forum posting. Here's what I replied earlier to the latest post of member, Rocky Mountain Hi:

JG apparently mapped the hike.

Moo. EC may not have been fully aware of things. She may have let him take the lead when it comes to many aspects of their lives?

Moo. We don't really know anything about their relationship. It's possible that he was a kind of authority figure in it...?...he was fifteen years older than she.

I don't believe that any super close friends of the couple--his good buddies, her circle of girlfriends--have commented in the news articles. RH, who according to news articles was the person who reported them missing, doesn't appear imo/Moo to be in their intimate circle of friends. SJ, who made a couple of public statements, doesn't, either imo/Moo.

 

[neesaki]

It’s an interesting angle, but what do you make of JG’s mapping way points around the loop?

Why would he methodically force the app to map that specific 8 mile loop, by putting in way points along the path, if he only intended a short stroll?

ok I just read @RickshawFan’s theory (I think theirs) that in the GC mindset it was a short hike. That is compellingly possibile even though to the rest of us it is not short.

Nor was it short for a dog.

 

[RickshawFan]

BBM and Sniped
Yes...so we have a mindset that set expectations...a "short stroll" a "walk in the park"...ERGO>>> Minimal preparation. "We've done our homework on this (on line resources), so no need to make this a big deal." The problem I have with this is that being rational human beings with precious cargo on board, one would expect at some point there was a realization that they miscalculated. It was no longer a casual hike and things were turning into a >>DOWNER<<. In your jargon, "NATURE WAS TELLING THEM" >> You have problem<<. The only conclusion one can gather from this is that they simply thought they could tough it out with the sparse resources they had. They must have realized they miscalculated at some point, yet decided to roll the dice. I really feel that they could have salvaged themselves from certain death because that point in time would be early enough to do so. MOO

I agree with this.

If they were still in their high tech theoretical world of “dream it and it will happen”, it’s very possible they didn’t interpret danger along the way as being other than a glitch to be overcome. Keep going. Until keeping going was not an option. I’m thinking this realization didn’t come to them until they were turning/had turned onto SLT.

 

[lotus777]

IMO there will likely be some argument about this, but yoga (EC's metier) is also highly practiced in "high tech". Same with mindfulness. Whenever I've gone to yoga, it's seemed to have a dangerously high potential for competitiveness (injury, too), e.g. in the degree of stretch. It also involves "mastery", e.g. of the body and/or a sequence of movements. I can see yoga being turned into just another ruthless, ambitious, competitive quest that I see in the high tech world. In that context, it would not be about "being present" in an integrative way, but rather about being the best at a task and mastering a soul-full art. In other words, I don't think SFO tech and yoga practice are at all incompatible, but reinforcing, crazy as this may seem to some yoga practitioners. Perhaps this mindset was part of the problem, too.

RSBM...

I agree with your characterization of much of the yoga practiced in the West, but I'd like to add that whether you witness the competitive or "mastery"-focused aspects of yoga is highly dependent on the teacher and studio. As an example my teacher has 30+ years of experience and studied in India in the 70s. He and other teachers trained by him are careful to share that yoga isn't meant to be competitive and that the practice involves lifelong learning, not something that's at all possible to master. That your body's limitations should guide you and yoga should be approached humbly. I once took a yoga class where the teacher introduced herself as "the yoga guru." No true guru would ever use that word. They'd let their teaching stand on their own.

Westernized yoga's focus on fitness, along with the competitive drive of American culture, has resulted in the dilution/disappearance of these ideas and many of the original more spiritual teachings. The ubiquity of all types of yoga teacher trainings and practices like Bikram and other hot yoga hasn't helped. To anyone interested in less competitive, more traditional yoga, I'd suggest an Iyengar yoga class or one referred to as "alignment-focused."

 

[lotus777]

I agree with this.

If they were still in their high tech theoretical world of “dream it and it will happen”, it’s very possible they didn’t interpret danger along the way as being other than a glitch to be overcome. Keep going. Until keeping going was not an option. I’m thinking this realization didn’t come to them until they were turning/had turned onto SLT.

I think you may be onto something. And it's not only in the tech world--the Burning Man crowd has heavy overlap with the "new-age/spiritual law of attraction aficionados," for lack of a better term. There are quite a few in certain neighborhoods here in SoCal and some of them have their heads so high in the sky you wonder how they manage the fundamental aspects of living. (Not to discount all new agers or the law of attraction, as we know attitude goes a long way in life, but some in that group are on a whole different non-rational level.) These ideas are also all over social media. It's something they would have encountered in San Francisco and with Burners, though we certainly can't know how much it impacted them.

 

[Rocky Mountain Hi]

Sorry, I still don't have the hang of forum posting. Here's what I replied earlier to the latest post of member, Rocky Mountain Hi:

JG apparently mapped the hike.

Moo. EC may not have been fully aware of things. She may have let him take the lead when it comes to many aspects of their lives?

Moo. We don't really know anything about their relationship. It's possible that he was a kind of authority figure in it...?...he was fifteen years older than she.

I don't believe that any super close friends of the couple--his good buddies, her circle of girlfriends--have commented in the news articles. RH, who according to news articles was the person who reported them missing, doesn't appear imo/Moo to be in their intimate circle of friends. SJ, who made a couple of public statements, doesn't, either imo/Moo.

This is what I've suspected from the beginning; that he, being 15 years older, was the family leader and had her complete trust. He was also the one bringing in the most income, so he was in the stronger position to make exotic adventures happen (Himalayas, Mongolia).

Still, though, you'd think that upon becoming a mom, her motherly instincts would kick in, and she'd have strong inclinations to protect the baby. I don't know how universal that is with new moms, though. There's a huge learning curve with infants (and kids of any age), for sure.

 

[Rocky Mountain Hi]

Can you point out those IG posts if its possible?

I'm not able to access Instagram, for some reason, but toward the beginning of this series of threads, several people looked at Ellen Chung's IG account (I think she had two, actually; there was one that featured their travels. ) I don't know if her IG accounts would still be up, but I can go back through the first couple of threads and see if I can find reference to the main one.

 

[RedHaus]

It’s an interesting angle, but what do you make of JG’s mapping way points around the loop?

Why would he methodically force the app to map that specific 8 mile loop, by putting in way points along the path, if he only intended a short stroll?

Well, my scientifically trained mind hates to jump to conclusions without adequate data. The fact JG researched the 8 mile 'loop' the day before they started their fateful outing, IMO, does not mean they planned to do the entire loop the next day. Maybe JG was just idly playing around, looking for the next adventure for when the weather got much cooler. Or maybe they had done the hike in the Spring and he had a free moment to finally map it. To me it is a potentially erroneous leap in logic to connect "map search on line day before" to "they must have intended to hike the entire loop the next day". Especially when it would be a ludicrous adventure in that heat.

What if they just planned to check out the trail head or a mile of this new adventure JG mapped out for a future time: "lets just go check out the condition of that road / trail"?

And on the flip side, an old question we've asked the data before - what if all the tracks LE found of the family were from several different prior outings?... In that case JG may have been mapping things they had done, not what they were planning to do.

To me, the most definitive data point that LE has not told us they have, is a call or text to a friend before they left for the day or a note from JG or EC left at their house (e.g on dining table) stating what they intended to do that day. Without that, the presumption that the family intended to hike the full loop is just that, a presumption. And a presumption is not a fact, my friends.

 

[ItalyReader]

Well, my scientifically trained mind hates to jump to conclusions without adequate data. The fact JG researched the 8 mile 'loop' the day before they started their fateful outing, IMO, does not mean they planned to do the entire loop the next day. Maybe JG was just idly playing around, looking for the next adventure for when the weather got much cooler. Or maybe they had done the hike in the Spring and he had a free moment to finally map it. To me it is a potentially erroneous leap in logic to connect "map search on line day before" to "they must have intended to hike the entire loop the next day". Especially when it would be a ludicrous adventure in that heat.

What if they just planned to check out the trail head or a mile of this new adventure JG mapped out for a future time: "lets just go check out the condition of that road / trail"?

And on the flip side, an old question we've asked the data before - what if all the tracks LE found of the family were from several different prior outings?... in that case JG may have been mapping things they had done, not what they were planning to do.

To me, the most definitive data point that LE has not told us they have, is s call or text to a friend before they left for the day or a note from JG or EC left at their house (e.g on dining table) stating what they intended to do that day. Without that, the presumption that the family intended to hike the full loop is just that, a presumption. And a presumption is not a fact, my friends.

I can’t remember but didn’t LE say GC had almost completed the 8 mile loop, without releasing specific evidence/details to the public?
I should relisten to the sheriff’s press release.

 

[Rocky Mountain Hi]

I think you may be onto something. And it's not only in the tech world--the Burning Man crowd has heavy overlap with the "new-age/spiritual law of attraction aficionados," for lack of a better term. There are quite a few in certain neighborhoods here in SoCal and some of them have their heads so high in the sky you wonder how they manage the fundamental aspects of living. (Not to discount all new agers or the law of attraction, as we know attitude goes a long way in life, but some in that group are on a whole different non-rational level.) These ideas are also all over social media. It's something they would have encountered in San Francisco and with Burners, though we certainly can't know how much it impacted them.

I remember reading a description of EC early on, to the effect that she was a "head in the clouds" type, that you describe. The opinion was based, IIRC, on comments gleaned from her social media posting. I think the fact, that they didn't seem to learn from the dangerously close calls they'd had on earlier travels, speaks to that mentality in both of them. I suppose this is somewhat speculative, but there does seem to be a recurring pattern that occasionally pops up in their "adventures".

 

[Rocky Mountain Hi]

Well, my scientifically trained mind hates to jump to conclusions without adequate data. The fact JG researched the 8 mile 'loop' the day before they started their fateful outing, IMO, does not mean they planned to do the entire loop the next day. Maybe JG was just idly playing around, looking for the next adventure for when the weather got much cooler. Or maybe they had done the hike in the Spring and he had a free moment to finally map it. To me it is a potentially erroneous leap in logic to connect "map search on line day before" to "they must have intended to hike the entire loop the next day". Especially when it would be a ludicrous adventure in that heat.

What if they just planned to check out the trail head or a mile of this new adventure JG mapped out for a future time: "lets just go check out the condition of that road / trail"?

And on the flip side, an old question we've asked the data before - what if all the tracks LE found of the family were from several different prior outings?... In that case JG may have been mapping things they had done, not what they were planning to do.

To me, the most definitive data point that LE has not told us they have, is a call or text to a friend before they left for the day or a note from JG or EC left at their house (e.g on dining table) stating what they intended to do that day. Without that, the presumption that the family intended to hike the full loop is just that, a presumption. And a presumption is not a fact, my friends.

Interesting points. I do agree, that knowing what phone activity there may have been that day could be a big help in understanding what happened, depending on the nature of the activity (if any).

 

[lotus777]

Social media is fake - we only put on the best bits and the best pics. Not real life at all and says nothing about the real person. Lots of people on here making the mistakes they are suggesting that Jon and Ellen made - making decisions and assumptions about them based on very little knowledge imo

It is fake to a degree, but a lot can be gleaned about personalities based on how people write on social media and how they characterize things. That said, I'm not agreeing Ellen and Jon were the head-in-the-cloud types because I simply don't and can't know. I was only musing on the circles of people they were exposed to.

 

[RedHaus]

I can’t remember but didn’t LE say GC had almost completed the 8 mile loop, without releasing specific evidence/details to the public?
I should relisten to the sheriff’s press release.

You are correct. That is what the SO has stated since the early days of this case. My post though was teasing out what the family's intent was that day, not what LE believes they did. The family's preparation, equipment, clothing (lack of all the above) and having 2 vulnerable dependents is what makes me question their intent.

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

I'm not able to access Instagram, for some reason, but toward the beginning of this series of threads, several people looked at Ellen Chung's IG account (I think she had two, actually; there was one that featured their travels. ) I don't know if her IG accounts would still be up, but I can go back through the first couple of threads and see if I can find reference to the main one.

It was made non-public a while ago.

 

[starviego]

...footprints corresponding to the family and pet were found, that indicated they'd done most of the loop.

Sorry if this has been brought up before, but where/when did the Sheriff's Office say that?

 

[LifeIsAMystery]

I wonder if the illness that EC said caused her to withdraw from corporate work, but which was not specified, perhaps impacted her ability to wear a daypack? Not sure what that might be that would still allow hiking that loop in extreme temps but trying to hypothesize. MOO.