GUILTY OH - Pike Co, 8 in Rhoden Family Murdered Over Custody Issue, 4 Members Wagner Family Arrested #66

[Dudly]

It is also puzzling since there was no Lab reports for DNA or Prints on the guns at least yet or in that discovery. There would have been previous prints on the guns just from handling, if not from the night of the murders. Did they wipe the guns off that thoroughly, but not wipe off the knife good or at all. They did make mistakes.

Why bother keeping the knife or the guns when they could just have gotten rid of them all. Seems those items meant somethinng to them.

I assume JW said that G4 was at the scene in some capacity so they probably do not need anything that proves G4 was there. It is nice in a trial to have some independent DNA/forensic evidence but JW's confession will probably seal G4 fate as far as him being there and being complicit. Complicity in aggravated murder is considered the same legally as being the principal offender.

From everything I have read, yes, if you are complicit, you are as guilty as the perpetrator... That said, the Defense does not have to prove anything, the Prosecution has to prove complicity. To a juror that can be in the eye of the beholder....

 

[Covert Operative]

From everything I have read, yes, if you are complicit, you are as guilty as the perpetrator... That said, the Defense does not have to prove anything, the Prosecution has to prove complicity. To a juror that can be in the eye of the beholder....

Very true. I was speaking from a legal perspective only. You never know with jurors. I have looked up quite a few cases in Ohio related to complicity to murder and there are a wide range of sentences. I have researched complicity a lot and it can be kind of complicated in some ways and not in other ways to prove or defend. It seems to me that the state probably has that proof from the things we know so far.

 

[RAISINISBACK]

It is also puzzling since there was no Lab reports for DNA or Prints on the guns at least yet or in that discovery. There would have been previous prints on the guns just from handling, if not from the night of the murders. Did they wipe the guns off that thoroughly, but not wipe off the knife good or at all. They did make mistakes.

Why bother keeping the knife or the guns when they could just have gotten rid of them all. Seems those items meant somethinng to them.

I assume JW said that G4 was at the scene in some capacity so they probably do not need anything that proves G4 was there. It is nice in a trial to have some independent DNA/forensic evidence but JW's confession will probably seal G4 fate as far as him being there and being complicit. Complicity in aggravated murder is considered the same legally as being the principal offender.

The concrete that was poured over them could have had an effect on fingerprint recovery. I know you can get really bad burns and infections from working with concrete. Had a nephew that worked finishing concrete after it was poured who had some bad burns on his knees from crawling around on concrete to smooth it, even with knee pads on. Still has scars on his knees now. Maybe some who has worked with wet concrete knows more about what's in it and the effects.

JMO

 

[Covert Operative]

The concrete that was poured over them could have had an effect on fingerprint recovery. I know you can get really bad burns and infections from working with concrete. Had a nephew that worked finishing concrete after it was poured who had some bad burns on his knees from crawling around on concrete to smooth it, even with knee pads on. Still has scars on his knees now. Maybe some who has worked with wet concrete knows more about what's in it and the effects.

JMO

The knife was in concrete also but a print and DNA was retrieved from it. It's possible that the guns and knife could have been in plastic, one or more could have been or neither could have been in plastic before being submerged. If none of them were in plastic, do you mean the concrete would affect DNA/ prints on the guns but not the knife? The types of material that things are made of may also determine how long fingerprints/DNA can be detected once they are submerged into a substance.

Either way they did not clean the knife or clean it well, it would seem.

 

[Cool Cats]

Here are all the charges Angela plead guilty to. Aside from the murder charges these will be all the charges George will have to fight in court in 5 months.

PLEA OF GUILTY TO

COUNT 9, CONSPIRACY

COUNT 10, AGGRAVATED BURGLARY SPECIFICATION 1,2,3

COUNT 11, AGGRAVATED BURGLARY SPECIFICATION 1,2,3

COUNT 12, AGGRAVATED BURGLARY SPECIFICATION 1,2,3

COUNT 13, AGGRAVATED BURGLARY SPECIFICATION 1,2,3

COUNT 14, UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF DANGEROUS ORDNANCE

COUNT 15, TAMPERING WITH EVIDENCE - Items belonging to the victims,
Phones, Cameras

COUNT 16, TAMPERING WITH EVIDENCE - Custody Documents

COUNT 17, TAMPERING WITH EVIDENCE - Silencer, Shell Casings, Parts of Hone Security System

COUNT 18, FORGERY

COUNT 19, UNAUTHORIZED USE OF PROPERTY - Cable and Computer Systems, Telecommunications Service, Social Media Accounts

COUNT 20, INTERCEPTION OF WIRE, ORAL, OR ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS

COUNT 21, OBSTRUCTING JUSTICE

COUNT 22, ENGAGING IN A PATTERN OF CORRUPT ACTIVITY SPECIFICATION 1,2,3

(DEFENDANT'S AGREEMENT FILED UNDER SEAL)

 

[Betty P]

Here are all the charges Angela plead guilty to. Aside from the murder charges these will be all the charges George will have to fight in court in 5 months.

PLEA OF GUILTY TO

COUNT 9, CONSPIRACY

COUNT 10, AGGRAVATED BURGLARY SPECIFICATION 1,2,3

COUNT 11, AGGRAVATED BURGLARY SPECIFICATION 1,2,3

COUNT 12, AGGRAVATED BURGLARY SPECIFICATION 1,2,3

COUNT 13, AGGRAVATED BURGLARY SPECIFICATION 1,2,3

COUNT 14, UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF DANGEROUS ORDNANCE

COUNT 15, TAMPERING WITH EVIDENCE - Items belonging to the victims,
Phones, Cameras

COUNT 16, TAMPERING WITH EVIDENCE - Custody Documents

COUNT 17, TAMPERING WITH EVIDENCE - Silencer, Shell Casings, Parts of Hone Security System

COUNT 18, FORGERY

COUNT 19, UNAUTHORIZED USE OF PROPERTY - Cable and Computer Systems, Telecommunications Service, Social Media Accounts

COUNT 20, INTERCEPTION OF WIRE, ORAL, OR ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS

COUNT 21, OBSTRUCTING JUSTICE

COUNT 22, ENGAGING IN A PATTERN OF CORRUPT ACTIVITY SPECIFICATION 1,2,3

(DEFENDANT'S AGREEMENT FILED UNDER SEAL)

Yes, George has many more counts to face and much greater involvement.

It's hard to argue you're not complicit in a murder when you broke into the home and stood there and assisted as the murders were carried out, multiplied by 4 crime scenes and 8 dead victims.

Come on, no one is going to believe he wasn't complicit when he was so intimately, eagerly and repeatedly involved. Again and again and again.

JMO, state has more than enough evidence to prove he was a shooter that night.

 

[joe jones]

I do wonder if they will be allowed to discuss AW/JW plea agreement if the GW's go to trial, I have watched trials where the plea agreements have been made known to the jury and trials that kept them out, I have also seen trials where jury is told a plea agreement was made but not the details, the details of the crimes from AW/JW contained in the pleas will be testified to but specifics of the pleas may be an issue

I think GW the younger would want AW agreement made known to the jury, as I am sure he would like to argue AW has no murder charges or convictions so I shouldn't, even though AW wasn't present and he was if it is true he didn't actually kill anybody then this may be one strand of his defence,

 

[Cool Cats]

I do wonder if they will be allowed to discuss AW/JW plea agreement if the GW's go to trial, I have watched trials where the plea agreements have been made known to the jury and trials that kept them out, I have also seen trials where jury is told a plea agreement was made but not the details, the details of the crimes from AW/JW contained in the pleas will be testified to but specifics of the pleas may be an issue

I think GW the younger would want AW agreement made known to the jury, as I am sure he would like to argue AW has no murder charges or convictions so I shouldn't, even though AW wasn't present and he was if it is true he didn't actually kill anybody then this may be one strand of his defence,

The Jury will know the basics of what is going on, it is all out there, be pretty obvious in a notorious Case like this that the mom and brother are testifying against George for a good reason.

There would be no reason to act like the jury has no clue that the mom and younger son turned State's evidence and the DP was dropped for all 4 and the mom also got 8 murder charges dropped in exchange for 30 years instead of life.

That sums up the plea agreements.

Problem is finding jurors who haven't formed opinions and jurors who don't know someone who knew a victim or defendant.

Be difficult to seat a Jury in Pike County. They can try.

To see how difficult it can be to seat a Jury in a small town look no further than the Ahmaud Arbery trial. Yes a jury was finally seated.

It's Proving Difficult To Find A Jury In The Trial For Ahmaud Arbery's Killing - The Seattle Medium

Glynn County · Population
85,292

Pike County · Population
55,933

 

[sunshineray]

From everything I have read, yes, if you are complicit, you are as guilty as the perpetrator... That said, the Defense does not have to prove anything, the Prosecution has to prove complicity. To a juror that can be in the eye of the beholder....

You know it seems to me if Charles Manson can be put away for orchestrating (and I don't think he went as far as to buy stuff to outfit the actual killers) multiple murders, then AW should be put away for the rest of her days also. Just saying and AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

Here are all the charges Angela plead guilty to. Aside from the murder charges these will be all the charges George will have to fight in court in 5 months.

PLEA OF GUILTY TO

COUNT 9, CONSPIRACY

COUNT 10, AGGRAVATED BURGLARY SPECIFICATION 1,2,3

COUNT 11, AGGRAVATED BURGLARY SPECIFICATION 1,2,3

COUNT 12, AGGRAVATED BURGLARY SPECIFICATION 1,2,3

COUNT 13, AGGRAVATED BURGLARY SPECIFICATION 1,2,3

COUNT 14, UNLAWFUL POSSESSION OF DANGEROUS ORDNANCE

COUNT 15, TAMPERING WITH EVIDENCE - Items belonging to the victims,
Phones, Cameras

COUNT 16, TAMPERING WITH EVIDENCE - Custody Documents

COUNT 17, TAMPERING WITH EVIDENCE - Silencer, Shell Casings, Parts of Hone Security System

COUNT 18, FORGERY

COUNT 19, UNAUTHORIZED USE OF PROPERTY - Cable and Computer Systems, Telecommunications Service, Social Media Accounts

COUNT 20, INTERCEPTION OF WIRE, ORAL, OR ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS

COUNT 21, OBSTRUCTING JUSTICE

COUNT 22, ENGAGING IN A PATTERN OF CORRUPT ACTIVITY SPECIFICATION 1,2,3

(DEFENDANT'S AGREEMENT FILED UNDER SEAL)

So do you have to actually be on the property that the Aggravated Burglary occured on to be charged with that crime? Four crime scenes, four charges.

 

[Cool Cats]

So do you have to actually be on the property that the Aggravated Burglary occured on to be charged with that crime? Four crime scenes, four charges.

No you don't in Angela's case. It's there in black and white, she wasn't at the crime scenes but still has been found guilty of the 4 aggravated burglaries.

Maybe this is unusual but it worked out this way for her and there has to be a legal reason she can be charged and convicted this way.

I believe it is because aggravated burglaries involve violence and Angela assisted in the violence/homicides. Assisted in many ways, directly helping it to happen.

Evidently this is enough for the aggravated burglaries to stick and for the judge to accept her guilty plea, and part of her 30 year sentence is for them.

Angela = being involved with the violence

Also I think her Conspiracy Charge covers the aggravated burglaries, the aggravated burglaries were part of the conspiracy.

2006 Ohio Revised Code - 2923.01. Conspiracy..

 

[Johnny B Bad]

GW4 was probably to have been the person driving the vehicle that hauled the two shooters to and from the crime scene, JMO, GW4 had instructions to kill anyone that got away from the shooters and made it outside, I just wonder if GW4 wounded any of the victims in Chris Sr shooting, because the LE new somehow that Big Chris saw the Wagners coming and might have fault back, regardless George Wagner iv deserves Life without parole, for what ever the roll he did in the 8 murders, GW4 worked, ran around with and ate his meals with Jake Wagner everyday, GW4 new exactly what was going to happen to the Rhodens and Gilley family and did nothing to save any of the victims, GW4 deserves no mercy. JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

GW4 was probably to have been the person driving the vehicle that hauled the two shooters to and from the crime scene, JMO, GW4 had instructions to kill anyone that got away from the shooters and made it outside, I just wonder if GW4 wounded any of the victims in Chris Sr shooting, because the LE new somehow that Big Chris saw the Wagners coming and might have fault back, regardless George Wagner iv deserves Life without parole, for what ever the roll he did in the 8 murders, GW4 worked, ran around with and ate his meals with Jake Wagner everyday, GW4 new exactly what was going to happen to the Rhodens and Gilley family an
d did nothing to save any of the victims, GW4 deserves no mercy. JMO

You wonder if George wounded Chris Sr but his Motion #73 says he did not shoot anybody and I don't believe George had the guts to get close enough to Chris Sr to do anything else to him. I think if anyone did anything else to Chris - like beating him - it was Billy who had a physical fight with him and then pulled a gun on him within that week.

Motion #73

Recently provided Discovery makes it clear that George did NOT shoot and kill any of the victims.

Yet the State insists on proceeding with this case a capital case unless and until Jake Wagner testifies for the State to it's satisfaction.

Thus, the State seeks to hold the death penalty over the head of George Wagner who did not kill anybody while it has struck a remarkable plea bargain with the actual killer of at least 5 victims who also shot a sixth victim.

Apparently Jake is the one who shot and wounded Chris Sr.

So it seems to me from this Motion.

 

[Betty P]

You wonder if George wounded Chris Sr but his Motion #73 says he did not shoot anybody and I don't believe George had the guts to get close enough to Chris Sr to do anything else to him. I think if anyone did anything else to Chris - like beating him - it was Billy who had a physical fight with him and then pulled a gun on him within that week.

Motion #73

Recently provided Discovery makes it clear that George did NOT shoot and kill any of the victims.

Yet the State insists on proceeding with this case a capital case unless and until Jake Wagner testifies for the State to it's satisfaction.

Thus, the State seeks to hold the death penalty over the head of George Wagner who did not kill anybody while it has struck a remarkable plea bargain with the actual killer of at least 5 victims who also shot a sixth victim.

Apparently Jake is the one who shot and wounded Chris Sr.

So it seems to me from this Motion.

Keep in mind, that's a motion filed by George 4's defense attorney, so take it with a grain of salt. It's his version of an interpretation of the evidence, not necessarily factual or in any way representative of the truth.

Recall, defense attorneys are not required to solve murders or find killers. Their only goal is to defend their client. They're actually free to be creative in accusing any number of suspects while defending their client without having to provide evidence or other proof.

JMO, the so-called Motion 73 is nothing but smoke and mirrors, lies by the defense attorneys in an attempt to gain misplaced sympathy for GW4.

JMO, he's as guilty as Jake and his father.

 

[Cool Cats]

Keep in mind, that's a motion filed by George 4's defense attorney, so take it with a grain of salt. It's his version of an interpretation of the evidence, not necessarily the truth.

Yup. Could be his interpretation of recent Discovery is lacking. Too many assumptions not enough substance.

Another word comes to mind:

Red Herring.

Seems to me if Jake would have come out and said that George did not shoot or kill anyone that Nash would have said that outright:

"Jake Wagner's statement is that George didn't do such and such....."

But instead we get the "sound bite" only:

"Recently provided Discovery makes it clear."

 

[Cool Cats]

Keep in mind, that's a motion filed by George 4's defense attorney, so take it with a grain of salt. It's his version of an interpretation of the evidence, not necessarily factual or in any way representative of the truth.

Recall, defense attorneys are not required to solve murders or find killers. Their only goal is to defend their client. They're actually free to be creative in accusing any number of suspects while defending their client without having to provide evidence or other proof.

JMO, the so-called Motion 73 is nothing but smoke and mirrors, lies by the defense attorneys in an attempt to gain misplaced sympathy for GW4.

JMO, he's as guilty as Jake and his father.

What do you think about this statement, bolded:

Thus, the State seeks to hold the death penalty over the head of George Wagner who did not kill anybody while it has struck a remarkable plea bargain with the actual killer of at least 5 victims who also shot a sixth victim.

This statement making it sound like Jake shot Chris Sr but it wasn't a shot that killed him. Makes no sense.

 

[Betty P]

Yup. Could be his interpretation is lacking. Too many assumptions not enough substance.

Another word comes to mind:

Red Herring.

Seems to me if Jake would have come out and said that George did not shoot or kill anyone that Nash would have said that outright:

"Jake Wagner's statement is that George didn't do such and such....."

But instead we get the "sound bite" only:

"Recently provided Discovery makes it clear."

Jake wasn't allowed to say anything specific pertaining to the actions of the other defendants during his own hearing. That doesn't mean they're not guilty as charged.

He can't discuss those specific details until he testifies during their trials. In the meantime the defense attorneys are free to make up any factoids they can to help their client.

 

[Cool Cats]

Jake wasn't allowed to say anything specific pertaining to the actions of the other defendants during his own hearing. That doesn't mean they're not guilty as charged.

He can't discuss those specific details until he testifies during their trials. In the meantime the defense attorneys are free to make up any factoids they can to help their client.

Really?

Then Nash wouldn't know if George did or didn't shoot anyone!

Wow. Hummm.....

Let alone if Jake shot 6 people.

 

[Dudly]

You know it seems to me if Charles Manson can be put away for orchestrating (and I don't think he went as far as to buy stuff to outfit the actual killers) multiple murders, then AW should be put away for the rest of her days also. Just saying and AJMO

There are a lot of people, some I know personally, that think Manson should not have been found guilty of murder based on the evidence in the Tate-LaBianca cases. That always surprised me…

 

[Betty P]

Really?

Then Nash wouldn't know if George did or didn't shoot anyone!

Wow. Hummm.....

Let alone if Jake shot 6 people.

Pretty sure Nash has seen Jake's proffer. He knows what George did. Jake wasn't allowed to discuss the other killers and their cases at his own hearing because that information belongs in the other killer's trials, when their attorneys are present, can raise objections and can cross examine the witnesses. IOW, if Jake stated, in his hearing, that George was one of the killers that night, George's attorneys could not object or cross examine Jake.


IANAL, JMO