GUILTY Germany - Woman, 95, Indicted on 10,000 Counts, Accessory to Murder, 1943-1945 Nazi Camp, 5 Feb 2021

[Mrs Marple]

I think Germany feels the need to continually prove they aren't an anti semitic nation anymore. It feels like a show trial.

 

[Niner]

I agree with you both - but since my parents escaped the Nazis & Soviet Russians in 1944 - I was interested in this case.
My parents had a lot of friends that ended up in concentration camps....

 

[Niner]

Just getting articles from October...

Monday, Nov. 29th thru Friday, Dec. 3rd:
*Trial continues (Days 29 to 33) (@ am CET) - Germany - *Irmgard Furchner (18 @ time of crime/95/now 96) Indicted (Feb. 5, 2021) on 10,000 counts of accessory to murder in Nazi Camp. Fuchner is accused of having contributed as an 18-year-old to the murder of 11,412 people when she worked as a secretary, stenographer & typist to SS commandant Paul Werner Hoppe & would have had a hand in transport lists of detainees due to be sent to Auschwitz for execution, the dictation of Hoppe’s orders, radio messages & his correspondence at the Stutthof concentration camp between 1943 & 1945.
Trial began on Oct. 19, 2021. Trial is scheduled to continue over the next few months. Sessions are limited to about two hours a day, based on medical advice.
After trying to escape the trial in late September, leaving the retirement home in Quickborn where she lives & traveling by taxi to the outskirts of Hamburg, she was arrested several hours later & placed in police custody for five days before being fitted with an electronic wrist tag.
Case & court info from Feb. 5, 2021 to Sept. 29, 2021 & trial day 1-28 (Oct. 19, 2021-Nov. 17, 2021) reference post #98 here:
Germany - Woman, 95, Indicted on 10,000 Counts, Accessory to Murder, 1943-1945 Nazi Camp, 5 Feb 2021
Nov. 29, 2021 Monday, Trial Day 29: No info yet available. Trial continues on Nov. 30, 2021 to Friday, Dec. 3, 2021 (Days 29-33).
Will start posting this only weekly on Mondays since no news outlets are giving updates on trial unless there are some developments in case.

 

[Charlot123]

I agree with you both - but since my parents escaped the Nazis & Soviet Russians in 1944 - I was interested in this case.
My parents had a lot of friends that ended up in concentration camps....

Yes, and predictably, in camps, there were guards, mostly men, who did horrible stuff. Some - few - could not do it and chose to be sent to the front. Usually, they were older Catholics. Younger people are more malleable and easier imbibe any ideology, methinks. On the Soviet side, too, the Gulag guards during WWII were predominantly young pragmatics unwilling to fight at the front.

And maybe even these men were not provided with the “job description” before they arrived at their respective destinations. But definitely people like Irmgard, who were supposed to type documents, were not, initially, told what they were expected to type.

In the camp, I guess, she understood. One can’t be that oblivious to what is going on. Why did she stay? Probably, good salary and ration. Maybe she had mom and sisters to support? It would be more interesting to know if she ever considered leaving, and why she stayed.

 

[Cryptic]

But definitely people like Irmgard, who were supposed to type documents, were not, initially, told what they were expected to type.

In the camp, I guess, she understood. One can’t be that oblivious to what is going on. Why did she stay? Probably, good salary and ration.

I think you are right in that it very likely that she did not choose her work assignment.

Irmgard was assigned to the concentration camp in 1943. 1943 is the year when the Germans mass mobilized for what Goebbels called "Total War". The Germans delayed mass mobilization because they were initially winning.

Anyways, in 1943, millions of German girls and women either volunteered or "volunteered" to assist in the war effort. As camp support staff such as the defendant were not SS, there is probably a less chance that one volunteered to serve as a typist at such places.

Rather, I strongly suspect that hundreds of thousands of German girls were given brief aptitude tests, then assigned to various parts of the war effort ranging from factory worker to nurses aid, to loading railway cars to typists.

The typists were then sent to where ever a typist was needed that was not on the front lines. Thus, she could well of wound up at the camp as random assignment.

Once assigned to the camp, she probably could have requested a re-assignment- if she really wanted to and was patient. As the war continued to turn against Germany, personnel managers were probably less inclined to entertain typist transfer requests and there was an increased expectation that one stay put.

There may of been other factors as well. By 1944, allied bombers were putting German factories and railyards under heavy attack. Likewise, food shortages were starting to occur in Germany proper (camp was in Poland)- not starvation level shortages, but not very comfortable either.

Thus, putting in a transfer request would risk angering personnel managers and also risk re-assignment to far more hazardous typing pool supporting say, an aircraft factory and then living under far less comfortable conditions.

 

[Charlot123]

I think you are right in that it very likely that she did not choose her work assignment.

Irmgard was assigned to the concentration camp in 1943. 1943 is the year when the Germans mass mobilized for what Goebbels called "Total War". The Germans delayed mass mobilization because they were initially winning.

Anyways, in 1943, millions of German girls and women either volunteered or "volunteered" to assist in the war effort. As camp support staff such as the defendant were not SS, there is probably a less chance that one volunteered to serve as a typist at such places.

Rather, I strongly suspect that hundreds of thousands of German girls were given brief aptitude tests, then assigned to various parts of the war effort ranging from factory worker to nurses aid, to loading railway cars to typists.

The typists were then sent to where ever a typist was needed that was not on the front lines. Thus, she could well of wound up at the camp as random assignment.

Once assigned to the camp, she probably could have requested a re-assignment- if she really wanted to and was patient. As the war continued to turn against Germany, personnel managers were probably less inclined to entertain typist transfer requests and there was an increased expectation that one stay put.

There may of been other factors as well. By 1944, allied bombers were putting German factories and railyards under heavy attack. Likewise, food shortages were starting to occur in Germany proper (camp was in Poland)- not starvation level shortages, but not very comfortable either.

Thus, putting in a transfer request would risk angering personnel managers and also risk re-assignment to far more hazardous typing pool supporting say, an aircraft factory and then living under far less comfortable conditions.

Thank you, very interesting. Yes, probably this is how it happened. She was so young, how many 18-year-olds would be able to make a rational, measured decision in advancing chaos?

I think honest memoirs about her life and experiences would be so much more interesting than this show trial. All the more so that she is probably one of the very few still remembering the war.

 

[Niner]

@ZaZara - same with this one as the Italian trial... find anything "new" on what's going on?

again - TIA!

 

[Laughing]

Thank you, very interesting. Yes, probably this is how it happened. She was so young, how many 18-year-olds would be able to make a rational, measured decision in advancing chaos?

I think honest memoirs about her life and experiences would be so much more interesting than this show trial. All the more so that she is probably one of the very few still remembering the war.

bbm

And, this job likely protected her entire family! Many materials were scarce -- housing, food clothing, gasoline, fuel for home heating & cooking.

Sometimes one family member's job allowed that family access to food and shelter and safety.

Jews, homosexuals, individuals with handicapping conditions were targeted first, but many 'ordinary' Germans and Poles and others found themselves shipped off to camps.

18 year old girl says "No, this is wrong, I won't participate" and the next morning her entire family might be on a train...never to return.

In my humble opinion, even if she knew exactly what was happening, even if she joked & laughed & flirted with officers, she was not & is not responsible.

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[squish]

bbm

And, this job likely protected her entire family! Many materials were scarce -- housing, food clothing, gasoline, fuel for home heating & cooking.

Sometimes one family member's job allowed that family access to food and shelter and safety.

Jews, homosexuals, individuals with handicapping conditions were targeted first, but many 'ordinary' Germans and Poles and others found themselves shipped off to camps.

18 year old girl says "No, this is wrong, I won't participate" and the next morning her entire family might be on a train...never to return.

In my humble opinion, even if she knew exactly what was happening, even if she joked & laughed & flirted with officers, she was not & is not responsible.

jmho ymmv lrr

Agreed. It was war. Whether or not she agreed, whether or not she knew, she had no choice. And everyone in war believes that their side is the right side and everyone else is evil.

By that point Germany were losing, the Allies were bombing their rail system and consequently many people were starving.

This job may well have saved her life.

Are Germany just going to persecute everyone who was an adult before 1945?

 

[Charlot123]

Agreed. It was war. Whether or not she agreed, whether or not she knew, she had no choice. And everyone in war believes that their side is the right side and everyone else is evil.

By that point Germany were losing, the Allies were bombing their rail system and consequently many people were starving.

This job may well have saved her life.

Are Germany just going to persecute everyone who was an adult before 1945?

Something has to do with the fact that Germany is the country whose history started in 1871. Less than 43 years of (pretty decent) history till WWI, might be no history to speak of if compared to other countries.

In the XX century, the history of Germany is marred by two world wars, that have forever changed Europe.

Germany, in general, has coped well with its historical complex, and done a lot in the process of denazification. Question is, do all these “nursing home processes” involving nonagenarians and centenarians “fit to stand trials” help, or hurt? I think, hurt, because compassion is compassion. Mentally, these people might be OK for their age, but I am thinking, are their wheelchairs convenient, and “I hope no one forgets to change their diapers”, and it all turns into farce.

 

[Cryptic]

Question is, do all these “nursing home processes” involving nonagenarians and centenarians “fit to stand trials” help, or hurt? I think, hurt...

I think it depends on the circumstances of the case.

Direct perpetrators should still be tried regardless of age. This is especially so if they were "double volunteers" in that they first volunteered to join the Nazi party or local pro Nazi group, then volunteered to join the SS or a local collaborating militia.

Senior enablers should still be tried. For example, a businessman who bid for contracts to construct forced labor camps. Or a businessman who specifically requested slave laborers from concentration camps be provided for his factory.

But.... trying then 18 year old secretaries with no history of promoting Nazi ideology as an individual and apparently no evidence of volunteering for the position is totally moronic.

That also goes for the German's last "big catch". A then 17 year old Belarusan conscript who was given three weeks training in late 1944 and assigned to a rear security unit guarding bridges and supply dumps.

No history of participating in pro Nazi groups in Belarus. His unit was then ordered to briefly guard holocaust victims on a death march. They were then returned to more "guard the bridge" duty. No survivor had previously identified him as being individually cruel.

 

[Niner]

I agree with you all - I don't think she should be tried either - I bet she had no choice - as someone said above - or she & her family would be in those camps....

Don't know what the Germans are trying to prove with this case - plus they have trial only 2 hours a day - due to her medical condition. This is going to drag for quite some time I believe.

 

[Vern]

Thank you, very interesting. Yes, probably this is how it happened. She was so young, how many 18-year-olds would be able to make a rational, measured decision in advancing chaos?

I think honest memoirs about her life and experiences would be so much more interesting than this show trial. All the more so that she is probably one of the very few still remembering the war.

Meh; we've all but recognized that it's quite acceptable and normal to try 18 year-olds as if they were adults and responsible for their decision-making ... and also quite often, those younger than 18 too. It happens hundreds of times a day right in the good old USofA.

We've got a tonne of experience with 18 year old men (and women) volunteering to serve in times of war and that "advancing chaos" to fight for the side that wasn't exterminating millions. Heck, even some of her fellow-citizens of the same age chose to help Jewish people hide, escape and worked the underground. Apparently they were able to make the choice to do the right thing. Only the ones doing or aiding the exterminating weren't capable of making better choices during that chaos and of same age? Bunk.

Goose and Gander. Choices. Same age.

A 'show trial'? Not in the opinion of the millions of innocent victims of that chaos or those who chose to serve to fight to end what was, quite literally, self-induced chaos.

Really, a country gets to create chaos and exterminate millions and the perpetrators then get a walk because it was "chaos"? Nyet.

 

[Charlot123]

I think it depends on the circumstances of the case.

Direct perpetrators should still be tried regardless of age. This is especially so if they were "double volunteers" in that they first volunteered to join the Nazi party or local pro Nazi group, then volunteered to join the SS or a local collaborating militia.

Senior enablers should still be tried. For example, a businessman who bid for contracts to construct forced labor camps. Or a businessman who specifically requested slave laborers from concentration camps be provided for his factory.

But.... trying then 18 year old secretaries with no history of promoting Nazi ideology as an individual and apparently no evidence of volunteering for the position is totally moronic.

That also goes for the German's last "big catch". A then 17 year old Belarusan conscript who was given three weeks training in late 1944 and assigned to a rear security unit guarding bridges and supply dumps.

No history of participating in pro Nazi groups in Belarus. His unit was then ordered to briefly guard holocaust victims on a death march. They were then returned to more "guard the bridge" duty. No survivor had previously identified him as being individually cruel.

Then everyone, every farmer, who held laborers from Poland or Ukraine has to be prosecuted…only many of these laborers preferred to stay in Germany, at the same farms, after the D-day, and never returned back.

Senior enablers and direct perpetrators are all dead. .. Those people who were 18 in 1943 could not by default be senior enablers, at least.

There were some situations that make me wonder. One of them is Speer, I have already mentioned him, and the other one, Dr. Mengele, where I believe that Germany was shockingly lax.

Mengele’s son visited him in Brazil. Mengele got his real birth certificate from West Germany embassy and became the citizen of Argentina - that was the moment to identify and get him. He divorced his wife; another moment. There was a trail…and Israel made multiple requests for his extradition. I read a book about Mengele’s postwar life; it was not happy, and drowned in the sea, either from a stroke or suicide. But, there was no comeuppance. His could have been the process of the century, and maybe this is why it did not happen.

We can talk about the fact that there were horrible people in the Third Reich who knowingly did unbelievably ugly things…and maybe this was the main reason for them to avoid capture, because other names would inevitably pop up during their public processes.

But all these people are dead, and throwing the book at Irmgard, and calling her “secretary of evil” (tongue-in-cheek comparison to Dr. Death, Joseph Mengele), is unnecessary. There were the orchestrators, and Irmgard was, indeed, as she is accused, contributing into smooth running of the Nazi German war machine, but so was the whole country. How it happens to countries is another question, but for Irmgard, born in 1925, perhaps there was no other society that she knew? For older people, who were equally complicit, fear was the driving factor, IMHO.

 

[Charlot123]

Meh; we've all but recognized that it's quite acceptable and normal to try 18 year-olds as if they were adults and responsible for their decision-making ... and also quite often, those younger than 18 too. It happens hundreds of times a day right in the good old USofA.

We've got a tonne of experience with 18 year old men (and women) volunteering to serve in times of war and that "advancing chaos" to fight for the side that wasn't exterminating millions. Heck, even some of her fellow-citizens of the same age chose to help Jewish people hide, escape and worked the underground. Apparently they were able to make the choice to do the right thing. Only the ones doing or aiding the exterminating weren't capable of making better choices during that chaos and of same age? Bunk.

Goose and Gander. Choices. Same age.

A 'show trial'? Not in the opinion of the millions of innocent victims of that chaos or those who chose to serve to fight to end what was, quite literally, self-induced chaos.

Really, a country gets to create chaos and exterminate millions and the perpetrators then get a walk because it was "chaos"? Nyet.

OK, @Vern, I don’t know your history, but I had multiple relatives who fought and were killed in WWII, one peaceful citizen who was killed by the Nazi in 1941, one relative who returned from war, with high awards, only to serve two years in Gulag.

All I can see is that XX century was such a mincemeat for Europe, that heroes died first. Countries were not heroic and chose wrong actions, don’t let me mention the fate of M.S. St Louis…

So accusing people of not being heroic (and it was heroic - to choose the right side), when heroism led people precisely to the same places like Stutthof and Auschwitz, is extreme. Any human society is a Bell distribution, and the most are average. Both evils and heroes are the same, top 2 and bottom 2 percent. We should name the heroes, but by default, heroes are not a majority.

If you want to know how life was for the Jews in Germany, I strongly recommend the book “I shall bear witness” by Victor Klemperer, he was a Jew who won Purple Heart in WWI, was married to a German woman, was a Protestant, used to be a professor in Dresden, and by sheer luck, survived the war in Dresden. It is a view from the inside, and it explains a lot. By the end of the war, even sharing food with a Jew was heroism. To add, sometimes relatives who emigrated would not help.

Question is, is Germany making a heroic effort, or a farce, when so many directly responsible were allowed to die in their beds?

 

[Niner]

Monday, Dec. 6th thru Friday, Dec. 10th:
*Trial continues (Days 34 to 38) (@ am CET) - Germany - *Irmgard Furchner (18 @ time of crime/95/now 96) Indicted (Feb. 5, 2021) on 10,000 counts of accessory to murder in Nazi Camp. Fuchner is accused of having contributed as an 18-year-old to the murder of 11,412 people when she worked as a secretary, stenographer & typist to SS commandant Paul Werner Hoppe & would have had a hand in transport lists of detainees due to be sent to Auschwitz for execution, the dictation of Hoppe’s orders, radio messages & his correspondence at the Stutthof concentration camp between 1943 & 1945.
Trial began on Oct. 19, 2021. Trial is scheduled to continue over the next few months. Sessions are limited to about two hours a day, based on medical advice.
After trying to escape the trial in late September, leaving the retirement home in Quickborn where she lives & traveling by taxi to the outskirts of Hamburg, she was arrested several hours later & placed in police custody for five days before being fitted with an electronic wrist tag.
Case & court info from Feb. 5, 2021 to Sept. 29, 2021 & trial day 1-33 (Oct. 19, 2021-Dec. 3, 2021) reference post #103 here:
Germany - Woman, 95, Indicted on 10,000 Counts, Accessory to Murder, 1943-1945 Nazi Camp, 5 Feb 2021
Dec. 6, 2021 Monday, Trial Day 29: No info yet available. Trial continues on Dec. 7, 2021 to Friday, Dec. 10, 2021 (Days 34-38).
Will start posting this only weekly on Mondays since no news outlets are giving updates on trial unless there are some developments in case.

 

[Niner]

This is the only recent article - 5 days ago - that I could find.

Holocaust survivor, 86, addresses trial of 96-year-old Nazi 'secretary of evil' | Daily Mail Online

 

[Niner]

Nothing new since the last article I posted above - I did add the witness on for day 35.

Monday, Dec. 13th thru Friday, Dec. 17th:
*Trial continues (Days 39 to 43) (@ am CET) - Germany - *Irmgard Furchner (18 @ time of crime/95/now 96) Indicted (Feb. 5, 2021) on 10,000 counts of accessory to murder in Nazi Camp. Furchner is accused of having contributed as an 18-year-old to the murder of 11,412 people when she worked as a secretary, stenographer & typist to SS commandant Paul Werner Hoppe & would have had a hand in transport lists of detainees due to be sent to Auschwitz for execution, the dictation of Hoppe’s orders, radio messages & his correspondence at the Stutthof concentration camp between 1943 & 1945.
Trial began on Oct. 19, 2021. Trial is scheduled to continue over the next few months. Sessions are limited to about two hours a day, based on medical advice.
After trying to escape the trial in late September, leaving the retirement home in Quickborn where she lives & traveling by taxi to the outskirts of Hamburg, she was arrested several hours later & placed in police custody for five days before being fitted with an electronic wrist tag.
Case & court info from Feb. 5, 2021 to Sept. 29, 2021 & trial days 1-38 (Oct. 19, 2021-Dec. 10, 2021) reference post #116 here:
Germany - Woman, 95, Indicted on 10,000 Counts, Accessory to Murder, 1943-1945 Nazi Camp, 5 Feb 2021
Dec. 7, 2021 Tuesday Trial Day 35: State witness: Holocaust survivor Josef Salomonovic was 6 years old at time.
Dec. 13, 2021 Monday, Trial Day 39: No info yet available. Trial continues on Dec. 14, 2021 to Friday, Dec. 17, 2021 (Days 39-43).
Will start posting this only weekly on Mondays since no news outlets are giving updates on trial unless there are some developments in case.

 

[Niner]

Not finding any "new" articles on this case - so I'll keep posting it. @ZaZara - maybe you can find "something"?

Monday, December 20th:
*Trial continues (Days 44 to 48) (@ am CET) - Germany - *Irmgard Furchner (18 @ time of crime/95/now 96) Indicted (Feb. 5, 2021) on 10,000 counts of accessory to murder in Nazi Camp. Furchner is accused of having contributed as an 18-year-old to the murder of 11,412 people when she worked as a secretary, stenographer & typist to SS commandant Paul Werner Hoppe & would have had a hand in transport lists of detainees due to be sent to Auschwitz for execution, the dictation of Hoppe’s orders, radio messages & his correspondence at the Stutthof concentration camp between 1943 & 1945.
Trial began on Oct. 19, 2021. Trial is scheduled to continue over the next few months. Sessions are limited to about two hours a day, based on medical advice.
After trying to escape the trial in late September, leaving the retirement home in Quickborn where she lives & traveling by taxi to the outskirts of Hamburg, she was arrested several hours later & placed in police custody for five days before being fitted with an electronic wrist tag.
Case & court info from Feb. 5, 2021 to Sept. 29, 2021 & trial days 1-43 (Oct. 19, 2021-Dec. 17, 2021) reference post #119 here:
Germany - Woman, 95, Indicted on 10,000 Counts, Accessory to Murder, 1943-1945 Nazi Camp, 5 Feb 2021
Dec. 20, 2021 Monday, Trial Day 44: No info available. Trial continues on Dec. 21st to Friday, Dec. 24, 2021 (Days 44 to 48).
Will start posting this only weekly on Mondays since no news outlets are giving updates on trial unless there are some developments in case.

 

[Niner]

This will be the last week I post this - until I or someone finds something on "what" is happening with this case....

Monday, Dec. 27th thru Friday, Dec. 31st:
*Trial continues (Days 49 to 53) (@ am CET) - Germany - *Irmgard Furchner (18 @ time of crime/95/now 96) Indicted (Feb. 5, 2021) on 10,000 counts of accessory to murder in Nazi Camp. Furchner is accused of having contributed as an 18-year-old to the murder of 11,412 people when she worked as a secretary, stenographer & typist to SS commandant Paul Werner Hoppe & would have had a hand in transport lists of detainees due to be sent to Auschwitz for execution, the dictation of Hoppe’s orders, radio messages & his correspondence at the Stutthof concentration camp between 1943 & 1945.
Trial began on Oct. 19, 2021. Trial is scheduled to continue over the next few months. Sessions are limited to about two hours a day, based on medical advice.
After trying to escape the trial in late September, leaving the retirement home in Quickborn where she lives & traveling by taxi to the outskirts of Hamburg, she was arrested several hours later & placed in police custody for five days before being fitted with an electronic wrist tag.
Case & court info from Feb. 5, 2021 to Sept. 29, 2021 & trial days 1-43 (Oct. 19, 2021-Dec. 17, 2021) reference post #119 here:
Germany - Woman, 95, Indicted on 10,000 Counts, Accessory to Murder, 1943-1945 Nazi Camp, 5 Feb 2021
Dec. 20, 2021 Monday, Trial Day 44: No info available. Trial continues on Dec. 21st to Friday, Dec. 24, 2021 (Days 44-48).
Dec. 27, 2021 Monday, Trial Day 49: No info available. Trial continues on Dec. 28th to Friday, Dec. 31, 2021 (Days 49-53).
Will start posting this only weekly on Mondays since no news outlets are giving updates on trial unless there are some developments in case.