MI - 4 students killed, 6 injured, Oxford High School shooting, 30 Nov 2021 *Arrest incl parents* #2

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Not completely caught up on this thread but I’ve seen a lot of posts about the school knowing about threats and sending emails about possible threats to the school. And wanted to add my 2 cents.
I live in a city in Connecticut of about 70,000 people, and here we average less than 1 Murder a year. Most crime is domestic and/or drug related in my city, but honestly even that is minimal (the crime, not the drugs, we’re not immune to the opioid epidemic here) and it’s a really safe place to live overall.
That being said, I get an email like the one I’m attaching probably monthly, and upon further investigating of past, similar emails, the root cause can range from a kid getting a detention and making a comment (though not direct threat) like “I hope this school blows up I hate it here” to the opposite end of the spectrum, where there is a pointed threat to harm specific people/schools in a specific manner.
As a parent, it can be hard to decipher how serious to take each email. Im unsure how much “say” the school administration has in what procedure to follow if the police say they found the threat unsubstantiated. I’m curious is anyone knows more or has more insight into this.
The attached email seems like the proper way to handle the situation, alert LE, take caution, the school took the steps it could. I think the issue in this specific case is no one alerted law-enforcement at any point. Ethan was searching ammunition the day before which, as an isolated incident doesn’t really mean anything just could be interested but following up the next day with that disturbing drawing it does give meaning to the Internet search and the probability he had a gun.
 
I was reading some of the Michigan school safety documents and there is a reporting ‘OK2SAY’ hotline. I wonder if it really is anonymous? Or if students even know about it. It’s probably like our “anonymous” surveys at work. People usually know the source of a report, since an incident and participants have to be described in order to report it at all!

Ok2Say - OK2Say
MSP - Office of School Safety
My youngest is 28 so out of the school system for a while, but I thought they did have anonymous ways to report issues, I know law-enforcement does
 
Is it possible they could get reduced bail or get out?

Eta with no law on this what could they be held on?

They have been charged under actual laws for involuntary manslaughter. I think the "no law" you mean is the no law for gun security. That would not impact the charges. It would only make it easier to prove the underlying conduct giving rise to involuntary manslaughter if there were such a law. Such a law takes away the need to prove negligence of any degree.

For example my state MA has such a law. One of the provisions is as follows:

A violation of the provisions of this section shall be evidence of wanton or reckless conduct in any criminal or civil proceeding if a person under the age of 18 who was not a trespasser or was a foreseeable trespasser acquired access to a weapon, unless such person possessed a valid firearm identification card issued under section 129B and was permitted by law to possess such weapon, and such access results in the personal injury to or the death of any person.
Mass. General Laws c.140 § 131L

This creates the requisite negligence required for manslaughter as a matter of law. In Michigan they will need to create negligence, (i.e. "wanton or reckless conduct "MA) through facts. I don't see anything leading to a reduction in bail or release of the defendants without posting the full bail which it seems they are unlikely to be able to do.

I'm not even sure the gun storage issue is the critical one here since there is so much other evidence of negligence or reckless behavior. I think we all know the basics of the notes, gun purchase etc but I surmise they have MUCH more evidence which paints a damning picture of the parents in relation to their son and the gun. Just IMO and all but they came out so quickly with the charges. I hope it was because they have a strong case and not that they were just responding to public pressure & outrage. From what I've heard so far this does, IMO, seem to be a much more egregious case than I've seen before although I don't really follow school shootings anymore.
 

I'm not the OP, but I took "pause and think about that" to mean that the Crumbleys hired a high profile local criminal defense firm to represent them, while their son most likely has court-appointed counsel. They are in CYA mode and probably don't care what happens to Ethan. JMO

Smith Lehman, PC (defendingabuse.com)
 
<modsnip - quoted post removed>

Scott Kozak, an attorney for Crumbley, said he'd leave bond to the discretion of the court. He objected to Crumbley being transferred to a different jail facility, noting "these are all allegations and he has not been found guilty."
Suspect in Oxford shooting arraigned on charges

A lawyer who represented Ethan Crumbley at his arraignment, Scott Kozak, did not respond to a request for comment.
Rewards offered for parents of Michigan school shooting suspect

But he said he would not be representing him going forward:

Attorney Scott Kozak, who represented Crumbley in court Wednesday but said he won’t be involved in the case moving forward, declined comment after the hearing.
Oakland prosecutor weighs charging parents of accused Oxford shooter

There is also a reference to a prior attorney:

Kozak, the defense attorney, acknowledged the “extreme nature of the case.” He said that he would leave the setting of bond “to the discretion of the court,” but he also said that decision was made after consultation with the defendant and with the defendant’s parents.

The judge confirmed that both Kozak and a previous juvenile attorney who represented Crumbley did not wish to have the defendant questioned further by the court as to the issue of bond. The judge then ordered the defendant to be held without bond.
15-Year-Old Michigan School Shooter 'Methodically and Deliberately Walked Down the Hallway Aiming the Firearm at Students': Prosecutors

He is actually a private attorney-link to his bar page ReliaGuide

But his address listed there goes to a UPS store....

His website ScottKozaklaw

Lets just say his is not a "big law" operation....

But don't forget, he did say he wouldn't be handling the case going forward so who knows who his current attorney is...
 
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I've seen a couple references to Scott Kozak who appeared at the arraignment:


Suspect in Oxford shooting arraigned on charges


Rewards offered for parents of Michigan school shooting suspect

But he said he would not be representing him going forward:


Oakland prosecutor weighs charging parents of accused Oxford shooter

There is also a reference to a prior attorney:


15-Year-Old Michigan School Shooter 'Methodically and Deliberately Walked Down the Hallway Aiming the Firearm at Students': Prosecutors

He is actually a private attorney-link to his bar page ReliaGuide

But his address listed there goes to a UPS store....

His website ScottKozaklaw

Lets just say his is not a "big law" operation....

But don't forget, he did say he wouldn't be handling the case going forward so who knows who his current attorney is...


Scott Kozak is NOT his lawyer. According to Court Record its: LOFTIN, PAULETTE MICHEL

https://micourt.courts.michigan.gov...ypeNumber=D01&caseType=FY&petitionNumber=null

Someone posted this above.
 
I've seen a couple references to Scott Kozak who appeared at the arraignment:


Suspect in Oxford shooting arraigned on charges


Rewards offered for parents of Michigan school shooting suspect

But he said he would not be representing him going forward:


Oakland prosecutor weighs charging parents of accused Oxford shooter

There is also a reference to a prior attorney:


15-Year-Old Michigan School Shooter 'Methodically and Deliberately Walked Down the Hallway Aiming the Firearm at Students': Prosecutors

He is actually a private attorney-link to his bar page ReliaGuide

But his address listed there goes to a UPS store....

His website ScottKozaklaw

Lets just say his is not a "big law" operation....

But don't forget, he did say he wouldn't be handling the case going forward so who knows who his current attorney is...

Attorney: LOFTIN, PAULETTE MICHEL
Date Filed: 12/1/2021
Offense Date: 11/30/20
Next Hearing: 12/13/2021 1:15 PM - SCHEDULED FOR PROBABLE CAUSE CONFERENCE
 
A couple of legal experts talk about the challenges the prosecution will face in the case against the parents.

Eric Ruben, a professor at Southern Methodist University's Dedman School of Law, said whether prosecutors succeed depends on the facts and on their approach. He said a case focusing on what the Crumbleys did - like buying the gun despite knowing it posed a high risk - is likely stronger than one homing in on what they failed to do.

Lawrence Dubin, a professor of law at University of Detroit Mercy, said that if the parents knew that their son had a dangerous state of mind but gave him easy access to the gun anyway, it could support the manslaughter charges.

Manslaughter charges against Michigan shooter's parents break new legal ground

The common thread among legal experts that I have read regarding whether Michigan's involuntary manslaughter charge will survive challenges at the trial or appellate levels comes down to whether or not the parents had any prior knowledge of EW's instability, and therefore would have known that their actions could create a situation where the risk of great bodily harm or death was very high.

I posted earlier on this thread an interview on MSM with Jonathan Turley, law professor at George Washington University and constitutional law expert, and this is his view. I also posted an article that gave a good summary of other cases where parents have been charged in both Michigan, Indiana, and other states, and prior knowledge of the child's mental instability appears to be the key issue, even in states that have laws requiring that guns be locked to prevent access by minors.
 
I do find it interesting that the parents hired attorneys for themselves but their son has a court appointed one. Wondering what type of arrangment the parents attorney's agreed to for compensation?

Look at these practice areas though:

upload_2021-12-6_13-1-58.png

I may want a public defender rather than a private practicing attorney that doesn't normally handle cases with these charges.
 
Michigan AG volunteers to investigate school's actions before mass shooting (nbcnews.com)

The state's top prosecutor offered to "conduct a full and comprehensive review" of campus events leading to the slayings of four students at Oxford High School.

Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel on Sunday offered to "conduct a full and comprehensive review" of actions taken at Oxford High School before last week's shooting that claimed four lives.

Oxford Community Schools Superintendent Tim Throne said in an open letter to the community on Saturday that he'd enlist a third-party investigator to determine if campus personnel could have done more to prevent Tuesday's deadly attack, allegedly carried out by 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley using a handgun officials said was bought by his father days earlier.

Michigan's top prosecutor suggested her state investigators would be the best equipped to take on that probe...
 
Correct, while these “ fine, specimens of something have hired, choreographed, and corralled an entire law firm for their defense… Everyone should just pause a few minutes and think about that…
My personal opinion is that any attorney that would take any of these cases is just seeking publicity. I can't see any defence for the crimes. They are blatant and horrendous. Give them their due process and let a jury decide! MOO
 
don't mind me, had a busy weekend and just getting caught up. will post things as they pop out to me. If you've already read just disregard.

Michigan school officials had legal grounds to search shooting suspect's backpack and locker but did not, prosecutor says
When asked if school staff members might be prosecuted, McDonald replied to CNN's Brianna Keilar, "We haven't ruled out charging anyone."
[snip]
"I'm sympathetic to parents, my husband and I have raised five children," McDonald said, adding "I'm certainly not suggesting that parents should be criminally prosecuted for any bad act of a child. But in this case, you can't possibly look at their actions and say that they didn't have reason to believe that there was real concern about a violent act."
----------------------------
"When they were gone, [Ethan Crumbley] would come knock on our door," she said, according to the Detroit Free Press. Crumbley would ask LeMieux to call his parents on his behalf because they didn't leave a phone with him, she said.

The former neighbor said she had worked as a restaurant server with Jennifer in 2012, adding that she considered her a friend and they often spent time together at areas downtown.

However, their friendship faded partially because LeMieux was worried about Ethan, according to the ex-neighbor.
Ex-neighbor says she warned Children's Protective Services about Oxford shooter's parents

Lawyer: Artist didn’t know Michigan parents stayed in studio
The couple went to artist Andrzej Sikora’s studio inside the downtown building Friday morning, but the artist was unaware of the charges against the couple or that they stayed after he left for the day, according to attorney Clarence Dass. He said Sikora had a “friendly relationship”′ with the Crumbleys but declined to give details, citing an active investigation.

Dass said when the artist awoke Saturday and heard news of authorities taking the couple into custody, he voluntarily contacted authorities. Authorities had been looking for the couple since Friday afternoon.

“There was a lot of confusion and the Crumbleys went to him for safety. He didn’t know about the charges,” Dass said. “They were there in the daytime. He left in the early evening. He didn’t even know they were still there.”
-----------------------------------------
1. I don't know if the school admin will face charges, I think it highly unlikely. Given what we have now heard about them opting to keep him at school rather than return a disturbed young man to an empty house on the day of the shooting, I would bank that the civil suits against the district are being drafted as I type.

2. Not surprised that these parents have an alleged history of being self involved at their child's expense.

3. I find this artist to be less than credible.
 
The common thread among legal experts that I have read regarding whether Michigan's involuntary manslaughter charge will survive challenges at the trial or appellate levels comes down to whether or not the parents had any prior knowledge of EW's instability, and therefore would have known that their actions could create a situation where the risk of great bodily harm or death was very high.

I posted earlier on this thread an interview on MSM with Jonathan Turley, law professor at George Washington University and constitutional law expert, and this is his view. I also posted an article that gave a good summary of other cases where parents have been charged in both Michigan, Indiana, and other states, and prior knowledge of the child's mental instability appears to be the key issue, even in states that have laws requiring that guns be locked to prevent access by minors.

The communications between the three of them and each other is going to be very revealing. Prosecution has it all and there's no way to hide anything now. That may be why the parents were hiding. JMO
 
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