CANADA Canada - Donna Stearne & Wendy Tedford, both 17, Toronto, 26 Apr 1973

[Georgia8]

Thanks Dotr. I don't think in the podcast it is clear when they go to Yorkdale whether before or after College and Yonge. Construction site: I think it is a factory unless the factory was being built then. The man he ran to tell worked there now he was Italian as was the boy who found the girls. He was quoted as saying it is too bad they HAD to die. I believe he started a company later named after the nearby street Apex.

Any sleuths who are better at this than me: are there many cases where in much less than an hour two girls are taken or lured, raped and reclothed? I doubt it but let us know.

 

[Georgia8]

Thanks Dotr. I don't think in the podcast it is clear when they go to Yorkdale whether before or after College and Yonge. Construction site: I think it is a factory unless the factory was being built then. The man he ran to tell worked there now he was Italian as was the boy who found the girls. He was quoted as saying it is too bad they HAD to die. I believe he started a company later named after the nearby street Apex.

Any sleuths who are better at this than me: are there many cases where in much less than an hour two girls are taken or lured, raped and reclothed? I doubt it but let us know.[/QUOTE

Adding......one of the girl's sisters expresses some frustration they were only told recently they girls were raped.... if they were.

Detective Smith repeats the old idea they were killed execution style. He repeats the idea they were posed what years ago was called being 'packed' - but another cold case detective later opined they just fell that way.

I don't know what the evidence is concerning bikers OTHER than the gun being found out towards Windsor an a similar crime there. If there is nothing else then it could be coincidental.

I don't get a sense the detective knows this case all that well or has even been to the crime scene. I am guessing he is just repeating construction site from errors in media. I am not sure why the business the boy ran to was not investigated more. Were there trucks there then I would think so.

IMP the Windsor angle may be a red herring and the answer might be much closer to the crime scene area. The detective brings up the idea of gang initiation....I doubt it unless he has more info.

Since he doesn't seem to know the case that well I wonder if it is correct that more than one person saw them at the restaurant I had known of just one. Which makes it less than certain they were there.

From memory...I believe someone who knew them had seen them at a bus stop at Lawrence and Keele after 11.00 Why would they be there? It is not a logical route from either Yorkdale or College and Yonge.

 

[Georgia8]

Just saw a case solved by familial DNA young girl Soriano was reclothed the now arrested suspect lived in her building and shared an interest she had in astronomy - police originally noted that the crime was a bit neat as if the person cared for the victim. Unless LE has more than we know of in terms of the supposed biker link I think they should keep an open mind on that. Now if they went to Yorkdale and downtown then there isn't a lot of time for what I am suggesting but if they did NOT go to Yorkdale there is time. They went downtown to College Yonge LE has a receipt.

Did they meet anyone downtown?

Anyone know anything about the business I think a factory that the person who found the girls ran to for help? Did they have trucks?

Not to cast any shadow on the girls in this case but if their high school was anything like mine, and I think it was, high school can be a time of occasional bored pointless debauchery - especially if alcohol or drugs are used - it seems far more likely to me that the girls had some other type of meet up that night and for some reason were killed. Sit n eat to a sexual assault to re clothing (what for?) all in an hour probably less is a VERY tight timelime. It is just possible but barely.

As for the murders being execution style I am not so sure. One cold case detective did cast doubt on that. I have said all of this before if execution style why direct them towards a spot metres from houses to be shot it doesn't make sense. Unless they ran there OR the factory is a point of interest and the perp(s) psychologically wants to get AWAY from the factory where say they work or have a contact.

If the girls had some other type of contact that night with men does it have to be true two men committed the murders in other words were two guns used? I think it is only one gun, Sorry if I have forgotten something we are supposed to know. Hopefully there would be footprints or some disturbance of the ground so we know if there were one or two men there?

 

[dotr]

Random thoughts..
Maybe the sex assault did not involve rape, but rather the girls were forced to perform an act that did not require undressing?
Maybe the killer/s wanted to avoid the ''intimacy'' of actually raping the girls, the act of shooting was ''cold'' and devoid of passion as opposed to beating, strangling etc. to kill them.
One girl's body was face down and the other face up, almost as though the perp/s were packing fish at a factory, almost as if the perp was not attracted to the females.

It was a Thursday night, if the teens were downtown in the Yonge/College area, why would they not want to hang around there like most people that age, why go to the boring ''backwoods'' of the city for a bite to eat? Surely more fun and action downtown, did they meet someone there who promised them a ride?
complete speculation, imo.
Yonge and Carlton/Then and Now – Lost Toronto

Posts tagged “Yonge and Carlton/Then and Now”
Yonge and Carlton/Then and Now
The north side of Carlton just east of Yonge circa 1973. Note the Harvey Wallbanger Restaurant.

 

[dotr]

Fwiw..
Maybe an extra surge of guys were in the area when the teens went shopping, perhaps traveling from London, Ont. staying around Yonge/College for the forum show, then following to Detroit? imo, Complete speculation.
Yonge/College (Carlton)

• Johnny Winter Setlist at Maple Leaf Gardens, Toronto
• Maple Leaf Gardens, Toronto, ON, Canada
• Johnny Winter London Gardens, London, ON - Apr 23, 1973 Apr 23 1973

Apr 25, 1973

• Johnny Winter Maple Leaf Gardens, Toronto, ON - Apr 25, 1973 Apr 25 1973

Following concerts

• Johnny Winter Cobo Arena, Detroit, MI - Apr 26, 1973 Apr 26 1973

 

[Georgia8]

Thanks for the pic

Fwiw..
Maybe an extra surge of guys were in the area when the teens went shopping, perhaps traveling from London, Ont. staying around Yonge/College for the forum show, then following to Detroit? imo, Complete speculation.
Yonge/College (Carlton)

• Johnny Winter Setlist at Maple Leaf Gardens, Toronto
• Maple Leaf Gardens, Toronto, ON, Canada
• Johnny Winter London Gardens, London, ON - Apr 23, 1973 Apr 23 1973

Apr 25, 1973

• Johnny Winter Maple Leaf Gardens, Toronto, ON - Apr 25, 1973 Apr 25 1973

Following concerts

• Johnny Winter Cobo Arena, Detroit, MI - Apr 26, 1973 Apr 26 1973

Yes I think way Dotr you are someone else mentioned the concert and I had sort of shrugged it off......it is actually a really really good idea.....it would be great if the sister who was on WS could answer a few of these ideas that come up here - for example as here, would the girls have been interested in this musician? Now I wonder the concert if was sold out? There would have been scalpers for sure.....it is not impossible they did something like this...or even went to the concert it is not impossible - we don't know the time stamp of the purchase at the Yonge Street shop do we? If there is one.

I wish we knew if the girls went to Yorkdale I am guessing we don't really know that. They had planned to I know. Or so they said. The sighting at Lawrence and Keele is far from certain and I think the detective may have mispoke when he said they were seen by multiple people at the restaurant.

You are really making me think - I think they only know they went downtown because of that receipt. So was the concert the real goal? With the quick pick up of a gift beforehand?

I know we are speculating too much but I think suggesting something besides gang initiations might be a good idea!

And thanks for the pic Toronto looked as bad then as it does now. And you know, you are right about the kind of sex. And looking far into the past lol it was common for girls to sort of 'placate' guys with what you are suggesting

 

[Georgia8]

Thanks for the pic

Yes I think way Dotr you are someone else mentioned the concert and I had sort of shrugged it off......it is actually a really really good idea.....it would be great if the sister who was on WS could answer a few of these ideas that come up here - for example as here, would the girls have been interested in this musician? Now I wonder the concert if was sold out? There would have been scalpers for sure.....it is not impossible they did something like this...or even went to the concert it is not impossible - we don't know the time stamp of the purchase at the Yonge Street shop do we? If there is one.

I wish we knew if the girls went to Yorkdale I am guessing we don't really know that. They had planned to I know. Or so they said. The sighting at Lawrence and Keele is far from certain and I think the detective may have mispoke when he said they were seen by multiple people at the restaurant.

You are really making me think - I think they only know they went downtown because of that receipt. So was the concert the real goal? With the quick pick up of a gift beforehand?

I know we are speculating too much but I think suggesting something besides gang initiations might be a good idea!

And thanks for the pic Toronto looked as bad then as it does now. And you know, you are right about the kind of sex. And looking far into the past lol it was common for girls to sort of 'placate' guys with what you are suggesting

Listening to it a second time the video of appeal by sister of one of the victims linked a few post back it mentions that the friend who identified one of the bodies says don't let anyone tell you she wasn't beaten' then adds she was black and blue. Back to the timeline - so not just quickly shot in the head. Beatings often take a fair amount of time due to the pleasure the person doing it receives. I guess LE considered the business where the boy ran to when he found the bodies. They HAVE I think to have been beaten somewhere else. The scene is right beside houses people would have heard screams and commotion.

So what does this mean?

 

[jessica-]

Listening to it a second time the video of appeal by sister of one of the victims linked a few post back it mentions that the friend who identified one of the bodies says don't let anyone tell you she wasn't beaten' then adds she was black and blue. Back to the timeline - so not just quickly shot in the head. Beatings often take a fair amount of time due to the pleasure the person doing it receives. I guess LE considered the business where the boy ran to when he found the bodies. They HAVE I think to have been beaten somewhere else. The scene is right beside houses people would have heard screams and commotion.

So what does this mean?

Hypothetically speaking, I wonder if they were pulled into a vehicle. People near by might hear a commotion, but their sounds would be highly muffled. There is also the possibility that they got Into a fight elsewhere, and after taking off they caught up to the girls in the parking lot where they were shot.

 

[jessica-]

You aren't wrong about a possible connection, but those paint chips, and metal shavings especially, were connected to a more specialized auto shop. The gun connection was known for a long time, so I'm sure that would have been looked at. The problem is there were a lot of bikers around the area at the time and all also a lot of violent sexual assaults and abductions as shown in the picture. If I can get the map updated, each point will list the crime that occurred there. These all occurred between 1970 and 1980 and is by no means

Please delete, repost.

 

[Georgia8]

Please delete, repost.

As far as I know many of the 'facts' of the case are based on very slender evidence (of course LE must have much more).

1. Yorkdale: I think we only know that they planned to go to Yorkdale not that they went to Yorkdale.
2. The receipt from the College Yonge store for the gift for the sister. Was the gift found as well as the receipt?
3. Someone seeing them at Lawrence and Wilson one acquaintance and maybe the bus driver?
4. I only remember ONE person remembering seeing them at the restaurant though a recent interview with the detective seems to make that plural. But I think only one unless LE knows more which they might.
5. So the gun was used in a crime around Windsor used in this crime then found by the road out towards Windsor. Strange it was found there. I don't know what the basis for the biker gang theory is. I realize there was a similar crime out towards Windsor I think the town was Tilbury , two girls murdered. It is slightly odd there is a Tilbury Street near this crime scene but I doubt bikers reference other crimes in such an oblique way. I am wondering what evidence they have of bikers involved.
6. Time of the shooting I think is one person in the adjacent house to the crime scene and possibly one other person.

7. One person only I think hear a car hurriedly leave the crime scene area. Note they are not on bikes!

It is interesting that the detective says they are DNAd 70 people or so over the years. That suggests it is not new technology but rather hold back info they kept to themselves. Also that is a lot people. Some would be obvious, boyfriends etc. Perhaps a lot of sexual offenders?

8. The police/media rollout of the sexual assault info was poorly handled. No suggestion it was new. This should have been a big story.

 

[Snively]

The gun was used by a biker to shoot his girlfriend and her friend, then handed off to someone who used it in another crime.

 

[Georgia8]

The gun was used by a biker to shoot his girlfriend and her friend, then handed off to someone who used it in another crime.

Do you have source for this, the police knowing that gun was used by a biker for the crime you mention? New to me!

 

[Snively]

One thing I never have seen if it was followed up was the fact that Wendy had broken up with her boyfriend a few days before their murder.

Another thing is the owner of the restaurant at one point says he doesn't remember them ever being there then another time is quoted saying he served them cokes and they left about 10 minutes after the young guy who knew them had come in. So which statement is accurate?

 

[Snively]

Toronto Star - August 2009

 

[Snively]

Hulko & Campeau

 

[Snively]

The business that the kid ran to to phone the police did have trucks. They were an asphalt company.

As for why they didn't stay downtown to eat, the sister of one of the girls had said they were out looking for marijuana and they were going to stay at the sisters place on Falstaff. Likely they were heading home from downtown and were meeting someone to buy the drugs. Did they meet the person at the restaurant or was the deal already set up for a certain time? Considering they didn't have a car they likely got a ride from the restaurant and either went willingly to the lot or they were forced.

The gift, a blouse, was found near the scene of the murder.

Someone earlier had asked how a car was able to get into what must have been a muddy field but there was a broken section of asphalt roadway right near where they were found.

 

[Snively]

Two other points. I'd have to look at the photos of the Sit N' Eat plaza, but how did the kid fail to see them exit the restaurant? Sure he could have been distracted and they quietly slipped out or they walked out along with some other people. But there seems to be a discrepancy of just how many people were in the place according to the restaurant owner. Which leads to the next point.

The restaurant owner went from saying it was really busy in there and he didn't notice them to remembering actually serving them cokes. That's a hell of a bump in memory. I'm guessing the restaurant had a back door likely leading out to the garbage bins and a small laneway for garbage trucks to pick up the bins. Did the girls go out the back door to a waiting car and is that why the kid never saw them exit? If so, was this common practice or did the owner know they were heading out that way to meet someone?

 

[Georgia8]

Two other points. I'd have to look at the photos of the Sit N' Eat plaza, but how did the kid fail to see them exit the restaurant? Sure he could have been distracted and they quietly slipped out or they walked out along with some other people. But there seems to be a discrepancy of just how many people were in the place according to the restaurant owner. Which leads to the next point.

The restaurant owner went from saying it was really busy in there and he didn't notice them to remembering actually serving them cokes. That's a hell of a bump in memory. I'm guessing the restaurant had a back door likely leading out to the garbage bins and a small laneway for garbage trucks to pick up the bins. Did the girls go out the back door to a waiting car and is that why the kid never saw them exit? If so, was this common practice or did the owner know they were heading out that way to meet someone?

I believe there were washrooms at the back close to a rear exit door to the parking lot. What you suggest is plausible. Note: what LE says makes absolutely no sense. If they simply were picked up while hitchhiking how does that fit with the biker theme especially the fact one at least was brutally beaten and they were assaulted. They seem like two different scenarios to me.

 

[Snively]

I don't think they were picked up hitchhiking at all. I think they set up a deal to buy drugs and went to meet the person. The person met them out back of the restaurant and either they were then forced to go with the person (why not just buy it right there?) or they were told he or they would take them to buy it.

The biker theory holds lots of water. The sister of one of the girls says they were going to buy drugs and the bikers were known to be dealing in drugs and there is clearly a ballistics connection with the gun used to kill them and also the two girls near Windsor which was most definitely a biker murder.

 

[Georgia8]

I don't think they were picked up hitchhiking at all. I think they set up a deal to buy drugs and went to meet the person. The person met them out back of the restaurant and either they were then forced to go with the person (why not just buy it right there?) or they were told he or they would take them to buy it.

The biker theory holds lots of water. The sister of one of the girls says they were going to buy drugs and the bikers were known to be dealing in drugs and there is clearly a ballistics connection with the gun used to kill them and also the two girls near Windsor which was most definitely a biker murder.

As far as we know we are talking marijuana. It is just very unusual for anyone to be killed over marijuana or a minor drug debt in those days. And "execution style"? Two girls? And for some reason we are now making light of what the police are calling sexual assault. Probably just because our understanding of the crime preceded the knowledge we now have of sexual assault. And if they knew the girls at all they would know one of their fathers was in the Canadian Armed Forces if I am correct.

There was no need to buy drugs from bikers in those days. Many of your friends would sell in a small way to support their own use. I find that very unusual. And we seem to have bikers driving a noisy old car if the evidence about the car leaving the scene is correct.

One thing: for a long time the ONLY cold case on the TPS web site was this murder. More than 20 years ago. Why? There might have been some special influence their from this father? Or something else we don't know.

According to what you are suggesting the two girls maybe go out the back (possible) for some type of drug deal or meet up and end up dead an hour later beaten and raped (you didn't say this I am taking this from LE) and shot in possibly a dramatic way. I think the weirdness of the crime is underestimated.

Do you think there is any 'meaning' to the bullet location i.e. throat etc. and the fact they were shot in different places? That seems odd to me may not be?

One thing about bikers: in the small town of a few thousand where I grew up some bikers kidnapped a 15 year old girl held her for hours at a trailer park gang raped her and forced her to have sex with their dog and generally humiliated her.

So IF bikers were involved do you think it is a matter of bikers taking vengeance for some misbehaviour in their eyes of the girls or is it bikers going rogue? I mean obviously bikers on a day to day basis don't commit the kind of crime I mention above.