Lies point us to the truth #2

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(Besides, John stated that the gifts from FAO Schwarz were from Patsy's trip in early Dec 1996.)

icedtea4me,

This statement is incorrect.
The trip happened in November.
New York
November 1996 Mother-Daughter Trip to New York (Includes Bloomingdales shopping)

"The first trip was a mother-daughter trip with my mother Nedra Paugh, my sister Pam Paugh, friends Susan Flanders from Charlevoix, Michigan, and her daughter and a friend of Susan's, Ms. Kirkpatrick I believe was her name, and her daughter, and JonBenet and myself." [Patsy 6/98]
 
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icedtea4me,

This statement is incorrect.
The trip happened in November.
New York
November 1996 Mother-Daughter Trip to New York (Includes Bloomingdales shopping)

"The first trip was a mother-daughter trip with my mother Nedra Paugh, my sister Pam Paugh, friends Susan Flanders from Charlevoix, Michigan, and her daughter and a friend of Susan's, Ms. Kirkpatrick I believe was her name, and her daughter, and JonBenet and myself." [Patsy 6/98]

The one in Nov 1996 was the mother-daughter trip. Patsy also went to NYC again in Dec.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9N-lD6aVuVw/UB2CyA2Ek8I/AAAAAAAAAhM/j3SQN1iZSKs/s1600/pageantapp.jpg

0231

1 pictures, but that was before we were really

2 involved in pageants, but then I subsequently

3 used a couple of those for her. Of hers.

4 TRIP DeMUTH: She was also in the

5 Christmas Parade, right?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

7 TRIP DeMUTH: She was on a float

8 with a couple of other girls?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it was a car.

10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Oh, she was

11 sitting in a car?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

13 TRIP DeMUTH: Was her name

14 displayed anywhere?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

16 TRIP DeMUTH: And who was she in

17 the car with?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: My car with the

19 driver, it was a BMW, and JonBenet -- and I

20 wasn't there, I was in New York at the time,

21 John and I were out of town,
but my parents took

22 her, and there were these little girls from the

23 America Kids.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm
 
The one in Nov 1996 was the mother-daughter trip. Patsy also went to NYC again in Dec.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9N-lD6aVuVw/UB2CyA2Ek8I/AAAAAAAAAhM/j3SQN1iZSKs/s1600/pageantapp.jpg

0231

1 pictures, but that was before we were really

2 involved in pageants, but then I subsequently

3 used a couple of those for her. Of hers.

4 TRIP DeMUTH: She was also in the

5 Christmas Parade, right?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

7 TRIP DeMUTH: She was on a float

8 with a couple of other girls?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it was a car.

10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Oh, she was

11 sitting in a car?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

13 TRIP DeMUTH: Was her name

14 displayed anywhere?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

16 TRIP DeMUTH: And who was she in

17 the car with?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: My car with the

19 driver, it was a BMW, and JonBenet -- and I

20 wasn't there, I was in New York at the time,

21 John and I were out of town,
but my parents took

22 her, and there were these little girls from the

23 America Kids.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

icedtea4me,

Yes, they did with the Stine’s. Managed to fit in Thanksgiving in Atlanta and Patsy’s birthday party.
 
The pineapple has both kids in the kitchen area around midnight. They could have gone upstairs to a bedroom. A common BDI motive is impulsive anger - either due to pineapple snatching or conflict over toys. However, both of these possible provocations of rage would place whatever occurred downstairs, and not in a bedroom. Although, a toy could have been brought upstairs and later removed? If BR lashed out, it'd happen spontaneously and not with a delayed reaction. Of course, this does not rule out SA as the motive. Then Burke would be also the abuser?

Patsy could have sent the size 12s directly to her niece. PR wanted to be viewed as Mrs. Christmas with house tours, Holiday parties, multiple trees, etc. It seems so out of character to hand out gifts with torn wrapping. There were wrapping supplies in the basement. At times, PR is like a perfectionist with a low standard of perfection. The staging in the WC is difficult to decipher. What is it meant to suggest about the intruder(s) or the FF? The packages have nothing to do with any of that aspect. Was it always part of the script that John would remove the body so that the final scene would not be able to be documented?
 
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You're always screeching about Burke's allegedly fecally soiled pajama bottoms, but turn a blind eye to all the pairs of fecally soiled underwear JonBenet had in her drawer.

icedtea4me,
Not a blind eye, why?

Because JonBenet's soiled clothing already has a provisional explanation, even it's Patsy's cover story for any prior abuse.

Burke's alleged pajama bottoms have no such explanation.

Try not to forget the long johns were just long underwear for years BPD and the Ramsey's were at pains, even in their interviews, not to link Burke with the long underwear, then when the CSI photographs were released, hey bingo, the long underwear had a front opening meaning they had belonged to Burke.

Like I said before I have a theory that covers all these little details, it's BDI on steroids, with the parents staging for him.

The CSI investigator did not think the soiled pajama bottoms belonged to JonBenet, otherwise why bother writing them up, as you point out JonBenet had pairs of fecally soiled underwear in her drawer.

Here is Holly Smith's account of JonBenet's soiled underwear, which I have posted many times in the past:
Holly Smith was head of the Boulder County Sexual Abuse team and has been called into the investigation, as she says, "to consult about some of the dynamics and some of the things people suspected might be going on with this case."

She started, as always, with a visit to the child’s bedroom. "That's a really important piece of getting a real feel for a family," Smith explains. With portfolio pictures galore and closets full of JonBenet’s elaborate pageant outfits, Smith says she had a hard time getting a feel for who the little girl really was, even in her bedroom. She recalls, "I just had a sense the type of decor in her bedroom was not really a child's decor." One poignant find that she does recall was a red satin box with what looked like JonBenet’s secret stash of candy.

She found something else in the room, however, which raised an immediate red flag. Smith says most of the panties in JonBenet’s dresser drawers had been soiled with fecal material. "There is this dynamic of children that have been sexually abused sometimes soiling themselves or urinating in their beds to keep someone who is hurting them at bay," explains Smith. JonBenet also had a history of bedwetting. While Smith points out there could be innocent explanations, this was the kind of information that raised questions. "It's very different for every child, but when you have a child that's had this problem and it's pretty chronic for that child, and in addition you know some sort of physical evidence or trauma or an allegation, you put all those little pieces together and it just goes in your head," she says.

Smith adds, "There was an indication of trauma in the vaginal area." The coroner's autopsy discovered evidence investigators say indicates JonBenet suffered vaginal trauma the night she was murdered. However the autopsy report also describes evidence of possible prior vaginal trauma. Experts disagree about the significance of that. It could indicate previous injury or infection, a sign of abuse, or nothing at all. Arapahoe County Coroner Dr. Michael Doberson says you would need more information before you could come to any conclusion. That was part of Smith's job. But then she was abruptly pulled off the investigation and told police were handling everything. "There was a lot of territoriality around the case,” she says.

Smith says she also saw things in the Ramsey investigation that she's seen in other cases, like the factor that money played in it. "No one is exempt but people with money are able to keep themselves more cushioned,” she says. She says she also saw a reluctance to even consider the issue of child sex abuse. Says Smith, "It’s just not a place where you know it's so abhorrent to people that they can't even do it, they can't even wrap their heads around it but it's more common than we think. The sexual violation of children has been around for a long time." Smith believes all of them involved with the case lost their way. She concludes, "In all the hyper-personalization around this case, everybody wanting a piece of it, everybody wanting to be the hero understandably and wanting to find out what happened to this little girl, our purpose really got lost. We lost sight of this child." In her writing, Smith describes seeing a picture of a smiling JonBenet, taken Christmas morning and tells how distressing it was to realize the child would die what she called a hideous death that very day.

Not only was Holly Smith removed from the case, but she had all the material relating to the Ramsey's redacted from her autobiography. What does that tell you?

.
 
icedtea4me,

Yes, they did with the Stine’s. Managed to fit in Thanksgiving in Atlanta and Patsy’s birthday party.

Rain on my Parade,
This should just highlight for everyone that Patsy on her second trip could have purchased a size up from JonBenet's size-6 underwear if she just wanted bigger set of Bloomingdale's or even just purchased a second set of Bloomingdale's size-12's, to replace the set JonBenet was asking for?

Why did this not happen, because the size-12's only became an issue the night/morning JonBenet was killed.

Someone who had little experience of female underwear replaced JonBenet's size-6 Wednesday Bloomingdale's for a size-12, Wednesday Bloomingdale's pair.

Obviously thinking size-12, Wednesday, fine, job done?

Patently neither adult would have redressed JonBenet in this manner and everyone familiar with the case knows why, so who else does that leave?

It has to be the same person who left his fecally soiled pajama bottoms behind on JonBenet's bedroom floor?

There was no intruder, neither JR or PR left any incriminating forensic evidence in JonBenet's bedroom.

We know all three Ramsey's were involved in the postmortem staging, the parents admitted to the tabloids that BR was wide awake during the 911 call, i.e. he just faked being asleep that morning.

All three Ramsey's put on an Oscar winning act the morning of the 911 call, and nearly everyone has bought into their story, hook, line and sinker!

.
 
The pineapple has both kids in the kitchen area around midnight. They could have gone upstairs to a bedroom. A common BDI motive is impulsive anger - either due to pineapple snatching or conflict over toys. However, both of these possible provocations of rage would place whatever occurred downstairs, and not in a bedroom. Although, a toy could have been brought upstairs and later removed? If BR lashed out, it'd happen spontaneously and not with a delayed reaction. Of course, this does not rule out SA as the motive. Then Burke would be also the abuser?

Patsy could have sent the size 12s directly to her niece. PR wanted to be viewed as Mrs. Christmas with house tours, Holiday parties, multiple trees, etc. It seems so out of character to hand out gifts with torn wrapping. There were wrapping supplies in the basement. At times, PR is like a perfectionist with a low standard of perfection. The staging in the WC is difficult to decipher. What is it meant to suggest about the intruder(s) or the FF? The packages have nothing to do with any of that aspect. Was it always part of the script that John would remove the body so that the final scene would not be able to be documented?

proust20,
The wine-cellar staging is meant to suggest a kidnapper snatched JonBenet along with the gifts and clothing and dumped everything in the wine-cellar, including JonBenet, as the kidnapping had failed, i.e. JonBenet was dead.

Patsy never opened those gifts, it was BR looking for the size-12 underwear so he could replace a bloodstained pair of Bloomingdale's size-6 underwear.

BR did not need to visit the wine-cellar to do this as they were not present at that point in time, i.e. no staging had occurred!

The wine-cellar staging was a roll of the dice by the Ramsey's. If JonBenet was not found, either they clean up and claim to find her, relocate the body, or just leave the crime-scene ASAP.

The latter option appears to have been JR's choice as he called his pilot to prepare to fly his private plane out of Colorado state.

.
 
Patsy was in the wine cellar on Xmas Eve night. She took a peek by peeling back a portion of the taped paper to determine which presents should be brought upstairs. Then Burke was down there on Xmas afternoon before they went to the Whites' home checking out the wrapped gifts in the wine cellar.





It was speculation on my part. It's not one bit surprising to me that you'd think it'd be logical to put wrapped Xmas gifts in the wine cellar prior to all those Xmas trees and decorations having to be lugged out by Linda and her family. Naturally it didn't occur to you that, in the process of removing the trees and decorations, someone could knock a gift over and step on it accidentally. (Besides, John stated that the gifts from FAO Schwarz were from Patsy's trip in early Dec 1996.)

icedtea4me,
Patsy was in the wine cellar on Xmas Eve night. She took a peek by peeling back a portion of the taped paper to determine which presents should be brought upstairs. Then Burke was down there on Xmas afternoon before they went to the Whites' home checking out the wrapped gifts in the wine cellar.
So Patsy says. Why does she need to peek at gifts she allegedly placed in there in the first instance, i.e. she knows who the intended recipient is intended to be?

Then Burke also has to have a look too, why is this, does he recheck Patsy's Partially Opened Gifts, or does he Partially Open others?

Patsy covers for Burke, then there is evidence linking Burke directly to the wine-cellar, so BR says he visited the wine-cellar on Christmas day afternoon, and of course he has another visit downstairs on Christmas night about the same time period JonBenet was killed, all entertainingly convenient!

Here is the zillion dollar question: Why does Patsy need to hide her niece's Christmas gift of size-12 Bloomingdale underwear away in the wine-cellar?

.
 
Proust,

Tell me more about how the pineapple has both children in the kitchen at midnight.
 
icedtea4me,

So Patsy says. Why does she need to peek at gifts she allegedly placed in there in the first instance, i.e. she knows who the intended recipient is intended to be?

You're naïve enough to think that she's going to remember that the gift that measures 24" x 18" x 3.5" goes to Burke, but the one that measures 24" x 18.5" x 3.5" goes to someone else, like a nephew?


<snip>Here is the zillion dollar question: Why does Patsy need to hide her niece's Christmas gift of size-12 Bloomingdale underwear away in the wine-cellar?

That's where all the gifts were kept.
 
The pineapple has both kids in the kitchen area around midnight. <snip>

Why would you think that a 9-yr old and a 6-yr old, who had been up since approximately 6 a.m., would still be up 18 hours later? (I firmly believe that this 26 Dec 1 a.m. time of death is wrong and that she succumbed to her father's garroting of her shortly before midnight.)
 
You're naïve enough to think that she's going to remember that the gift that measures 24" x 18" x 3.5" goes to Burke, but the one that measures 24" x 18.5" x 3.5" goes to someone else, like a nephew?




That's where all the gifts were kept.

icedtea4me,
You're naïve enough to think that she's going to remember that the gift that measures 24" x 18" x 3.5" goes to Burke, but the one that measures 24" x 18.5" x 3.5" goes to someone else, like a nephew?
BBM: I do not know how she name-checked her gifts. Neither do you. You do not have a clue what system Patsy used to memorise her gifts, as she never ever made this public.

That's where all the gifts were kept.
Who says so, you have a source for this?

Once again, nice try, but no cigar.

You obviously do not have a coherent theory as to who assaulted and killed JonBenet.

.
 
<snip>Burke's alleged pajama bottoms have no such explanation.<snip>

Unlike you, I'm smart enough to know that pants that look like they might be too big for JonBenet do not equal pants that are the correct size for Burke.
 
The autopsy indicates that JB ate the pineapple around midnight. She was to short to manage getting it from the fridge by herself. The bowl with it had Burke's fingerprints as did the glass of tea next to it. Patsy said that she wouldn't serve it with the type of spoon which was used.

I do not feel that the WC setting suggests a kidnapping gone wrong scenario, if that were intended. It doesn't appear haphazard nor thrown together in flight. Rather it seems almost ritualistic, and certainly carefully laid out. There's a striving for an effect that eludes. Why would the kidnapper(s) want to take the wrapped presents? JB is supposed to have been abducted by terrorists! I've no idea what the Rs or LS thought went wrong with the 'abduction'. Team R never fabricated a plausible narrative of the crime.

Since the size 6s and pj bottoms were removed and never found, it's safe to assume that they were incriminating. If BR did so, it could not be because of semen. That leaves blood of which there isn't much at the CS, and which would very difficult to eradicate completely. What would be the source of blood? Or could there have been a potty incident connected with them? Burke could have showered at some point?
 
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The autopsy indicates that JB ate the pineapple around midnight. She was to short to manage getting it from the fridge by herself. The bowl with it had Burke's fingerprints as did the glass of tea next to it. Patsy said that she wouldn't serve it with the type of spoon which was used.

I do not feel that the WC setting suggests a kidnapping gone wrong scenario, if that were intended. It doesn't appear haphazard nor thrown together in flight. Rather it seems almost ritualistic, and certainly carefully laid out. There's a striving for an effect that eludes. Why would the kidnapper(s) want to take the wrapped presents? JB is supposed to have been abducted by terrorists! I've no idea what the Rs or LS thought went wrong with the 'abduction'. Team R never fabricated a plausible narrative of the crime.

Since the size 6s and pj bottoms were removed and never found, it's safe to assume that they were incriminating. If BR did so, it could not be because of semen. That leaves blood of which there isn't much at the CS, and which would very difficult to eradicate completely. What would be the source of blood? Or could there have been a potty incident connected with them? Burke could have showered at some point?


proust20,
I do not feel that the WC setting suggests a kidnapping gone wrong scenario, if that were intended. It doesn't appear haphazard nor thrown together in flight. Rather it seems almost ritualistic, and certainly carefully laid out. There's a striving for an effect that eludes. Why would the kidnapper(s) want to take the wrapped presents? JB is supposed to have been abducted by terrorists! I've no idea what the Rs or LS thought went wrong with the 'abduction'. Team R never fabricated a plausible narrative of the crime.
It's a kidnapping gone wrong by default as JonBenet never left her house, although the alleged kidnapper did, so it failed.

Why would the kidnapper(s) want to take the wrapped presents?
Keep JonBenet happy at her intended external location?

Team R never fabricated a plausible narrative of the crime.
That's because they knew there was none, and that the case is BDI.

Since the size 6s and pj bottoms were removed and never found, it's safe to assume that they were incriminating. If BR did so, it could not be because of semen.
Semen can be issued in prepubertal children it has a low density of sperm to fluid, but can obviously still be used to run a dna test.

What would be the source of blood?
Her internal injury?

Or could there have been a potty incident connected with them?
Possibly, remember BR asking What did you find, BR is really asking is there anything you found that links to me?

I reckon he used the basement toilet so he might be concerned he left something behind?

The BDI aspect that is difficult to imagine is BR moving JonBenet downstairs, the other option is that JonBenet and BR were in the basement?

The rest is patently staging by the parents.

.
 
Unlike you, I'm smart enough to know that pants that look like they might be too big for JonBenet do not equal pants that are the correct size for Burke.


icedtea4me,
Sure, everyone is dazzled by your consistent reasoning.

Pajama bottoms too big for JonBenet implies they belong to someone else.

That's it, we do not need a correct size to work out who they might belong to, since if we can eliminate that they are an adult size, guess who is left?

Yes, of course Burke Ramsey.

Naturally you being super smart already knew that, you were just testing me?

.
 
Poor Evan is simply a scapegoat for the Ramsey's. if he had been present or involved his dna would be all over JonBenet, her clothing, bedroom artifacts, etc, and according to the dna lab results it is not.

UKGuy,

Absolutely could be Evan was a scapegoat. But the dna is said to contain another unknown male on the long johns which is still unidentified. Can you share what you know here please?
 
Burke did not write the RN. He heard Patsy talking about it on the 911. He would of been curious of its contents. "What did you find?" might be asking "What does it say?" PR was vague about the RN on the call. She had to be. BR wouldn't learn much about it from what she told the operator. "We're not talking to you." could be a refusal to clue their son in? Did Burke read the RN before leaving the house?

proust20,

What I wonder about here is the tone of JR? Why would JR have reason to speak to BR like this; at a time like this? Sure BR didn’t write the RN … yet PR did state that their daughter had been kidnapped.

Why did BR go to his room, pretend to be asleep and ask no questions? He obviously already knew what had taken place. He expected everybody to know the truth of what happened before JB was buried.
 
The one in Nov 1996 was the mother-daughter trip. Patsy also went to NYC again in Dec.

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-9N-lD6aVuVw/UB2CyA2Ek8I/AAAAAAAAAhM/j3SQN1iZSKs/s1600/pageantapp.jpg

0231

1 pictures, but that was before we were really

2 involved in pageants, but then I subsequently

3 used a couple of those for her. Of hers.

4 TRIP DeMUTH: She was also in the

5 Christmas Parade, right?

6 PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-hum.

7 TRIP DeMUTH: She was on a float

8 with a couple of other girls?

9 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes, it was a car.

10 TRIP DeMUTH: Okay. Oh, she was

11 sitting in a car?

12 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah.

13 TRIP DeMUTH: Was her name

14 displayed anywhere?

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.

16 TRIP DeMUTH: And who was she in

17 the car with?

18 PATSY RAMSEY: My car with the

19 driver, it was a BMW, and JonBenet -- and I

20 wasn't there, I was in New York at the time,

21 John and I were out of town,
but my parents took

22 her, and there were these little girls from the

23 America Kids.

http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

Icedtea4me,

I stand corrected they went on the trip to NYC with the Stine’s Dec. 6th per JR.
 
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