Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

[m00c0w]

I agree with you on this. I've had to obtain warrants before, and when you're writing the affidavit in support of the warrant, you're not writing anything that would give the judge a reason not to issue it. You're only going to write things that support the reasons why you want it. When I was before the judge, asking for a warrant, it was not uncommon to be asked questions which were were noted, along with the verbal responses. It was also not uncommon to be denied a warrant for lack of supporting information, or to be told to go back and find more evidence then return again. I'd love to know if they got this warrant on the first try, or if they were sent back? I'd also like to know what they omitted from it in order to get it (if anything).

Something to keep in mind regarding your questions at the end, is that this is an FBI agent submitting a search warrant affidavit through the state courts, not federal. One could potentially make some assumptions about an AUSA‘s willingness to support the warrant based on that...

JMO

 

[steeltowngirl]

This is just my take on things, but to me there are three things listed in that affidavit that point away from certain CODs, like strangulation, drowning, injection, etc.: 1) There was significant blood loss, 2) no visible signs of the girls fighting back, and 3) the nature of the injuries were such that the killer likely had blood on him.

So, my interpretation would be that the girls had no actively bleeding defense wounds, so the only way the killer would have gotten their blood on him, even if moving them post-mortem, would be for their injuries to be such that they were actively bleeding significant amounts, which wouldn't match up with the above listed CODs. JMO.

Unless they were unconscious or deceased by strangulation or one of the above - just prior to their being stabbed or shot. I assume one would still bleed out for a period of time. I hate typing that.

 

[CADwrest]

I agree with you on this. I've had to obtain warrants before, and when you're writing the affidavit in support of the warrant, you're not writing anything that would give the judge a reason not to issue it. You're only going to write things that support the reasons why you want it. When I was before the judge, asking for a warrant, it was not uncommon to be asked questions which were were noted, along with the verbal responses. It was also not uncommon to be denied a warrant for lack of supporting information, or to be told to go back and find more evidence then return again. I'd love to know if they got this warrant on the first try, or if they were sent back? I'd also like to know what they omitted from it in order to get it (if anything).

Exactly. I'm not in LE, but I do have a job where I frequently need to get approval from a higher authority. You know the result you want, so you're only going to put things that support that result in your request (EG. they leave out that he's not in the likely age range of the suspect, which they thought they knew at this point.)
There's something of an art to it. You want both quality AND quantity. You start with your strongest arguments, like the agent does here: The murder scene is on his property, his build is consistent with the suspect, he's known to carry the type of weapons used, he lied to create an alibi, someone thought the person in the video was him, etc. Then, to pad it out and make it the evidence seem overwhelming, you add supporting facts that wouldn't really stand up to scrutiny on their own: He's physically able to navigate the terrain, his phone was in the proximity at the time, he's capable of violence under different contexts, etc. The idea is, by the time the judge (in this case) gets to that part of it, he's made up his mind in your favor, and that all just reinforces it.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

JMO- Comments from investigators describing the crime scene as pristine and lack of struggle suggest to me the perp had some means to control them and suggests perhaps overwhelming h force. This suggests towards two perps. Even with the addition of a firearm it would be difficult to control both of them. Two perps certainly could have.

If I remember correctly, I thought it was actually RL who said the crime scene was pristine, after he was allowed back there after LE had finished looking for evidence. Might be wrong.

 

[steeltowngirl]

@helpfulcharlie - I agree with your post on the last thread about the surprisingly long list of potential suspects making the investigation difficult.

Recall this tweet -

https://twitter.com/x/status/1096831863451045889

HLN
@HLNTV

Some 1,100 people have been looked at in connection with the #DelphiMurders of teens Libby German and Abby Williams... but officials tell HLN's @SusanHendricks, that list now comes down to about two dozen names of people who could be the suspect they call "Bridge Guy."

 

[abams]

Something to keep in mind regarding your questions at the end, is that this is an FBI agent submitting a search warrant affidavit through the state courts, not federal. One could potentially make some assumptions about an AUSA‘s willingness to support the warrant based on that...

JMO

I'm not following. Unless evidence supporting a federal crime was found, this would be tried in state courts.

 

[IQuestion]

A FABULOUS SUMMATION and timeline leading to KK trial scheduled for May 2022. It has helped me understand ISP Superintendent Carter's line "We have spoken to you or someone close to you."

Kegan Kline Trial Updates

Stay up to date with our trial timeline.

juryfile.com

I did not realize his home was searched on Feb. 25, 2017 and that he hid "the phone with the apps" from the police and then started erasing info!!!
(This is the case I have always hoped would be solved.)
I am a self acknowledged technology dunce...no FB, Twitter, Yubo, Kik, Tik, Yubo, Yellow, Rumble, instagram, facetime, zoom, snapchat etc....so my contribution can only be "copy and paste" a link.

 

[O.Incandenza]

can we agree that the inclusion of ( no struggle ) makes no sense ?
unless
its to imply they don't have dna under their nails and so on.. so they wouldn't be obliged to compare what dna with they have with RL and thus not being granted a search warrant ?
so the reliability/reasoning of this statement is questionable

I think the detail about the lack of signs of a struggle is included to support the warrant being extended to firearms as well as cutting weapons. From the description of the crime scene, it doesn't sound like there was any evidence of a gun being used in the actual murders. So it would make sense for the warrant to only extend to weapons capable of inflicting the wounds seen on the victims. But a lack of struggle indicates that the murderer got them under control in some way prior to killing them. And a gun is a likely way to do that.

 

[m00c0w]

I'm not following. Unless evidence supporting a federal crime was found, this would be tried in state courts.

FBI agents don’t normally go out filing state papers, especially if there is no federal nexus. That would be a job for local or state law enforcement. The FBI agent was the affiant here. That is telling.

JMO

 

[helpfulcharlie]

FBI agents don’t normally go out filing state papers, especially if there is no federal nexus. That would be a job for local or state law enforcement. The FBI agent was the affiant here. That is telling.

JMO

Curious about what that means to you. I know there have been some who thought a local LE might have involvement, is that where you're going with this?

 

[photographer4]

If I remember correctly, I thought it was actually RL who said the crime scene was pristine, after he was allowed back there after LE had finished looking for evidence. Might be wrong.

Of course it was - LE wasn't going to return a crime scene that was still in a state of chaos to the landowner, were they? That would have given rise to huge gossip and rumors! I think they gathered everything they needed and took it with them and probably raked the area or whatever they had to do to make it less obvious what had happened, or that anything had happened at all.

 

[Barbieshell]

Here's something to ponder, what happens if Ron Logan was BG, he told the girls they were trespassing and offered to get them back across the creek where he killed them. But as a coincidence someone Libby had been communicating with went to the bridge to meet them - "I was supposed to meet up with her but she didn't show up".....he then thinks he's been blown off, exits the trails and gets his dad to pick him up.
Doug Carter said nobody had got the scenario right, it could be something like the aforementioned but it could explain someone giving LE the YBG sketch as he was there, with his burner phone perhaps, possibly planning to do something illegal, but not murder.
This case is just baffling, I think LE need to come out and publicly state Ron Logan was NOT bridge guy, or maybe he was, maybe he did get them back over to his side and shooed them off with a flea in their ears only for them to fall into the clutches of the actual killer that was on the trails - eek !!

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Of course it was - LE wasn't going to return a crime scene that was still in a state of chaos to the landowner, were they? That would have given rise to huge gossip and rumors! I think they gathered everything they needed and took it with them and probably raked the area or whatever they had to do to make it less obvious what had happened, or that anything had happened at all.

Exactly!

 

[photographer4]

Here's something to ponder, what happens if Ron Logan was BG, he told the girls they were trespassing and offered to get them back across the creek where he killed them. But as a coincidence someone Libby had been communicating with went to the bridge to meet them - "I was supposed to meet up with her but she didn't show up".....he then thinks he's been blown off, exits the trails and gets his dad to pick him up.
Doug Carter said nobody had got the scenario right, it could be something like the aforementioned but it could explain someone giving LE the YBG sketch as he was there, with his burner phone perhaps, possibly planning to do something illegal, but not murder.
This case is just baffling, I think LE need to come out and publicly state Ron Logan was NOT bridge guy, or maybe he was, maybe he did get them back over to his side and shooed them off with a flea in their ears only for them to fall into the clutches of the actual killer that was on the trails - eek !!

They're not going to do that unless they get a firm conviction on someone else. Once they do that, they have to have the evidence to back themselves up. Once they say it, if they were to charge someone else later, they'd be up against reasonable doubt that they themselves created. RL cannot be tried because he is dead. So they better be sure if they're pinning it on him and closing the case. This hasn't happened, so its either they don't have enough or don't think it was him.

 

[Ekliptika]

Unless they were unconscious or deceased by strangulation or one of the above - just prior to their being stabbed or shot. I assume one would still bleed out for a period of time. I hate typing that.

There is a difference in blood loss depending on whether wounds are inflicted when the victim is alive or if wounds are inflicted after death. Significant less blood at the crime scene if inflicted after death. What I interpret from the RL affidavid, excess blood loss means wounds inflicted before death. Whether those wounds and subsequent blood loss was cause of death we do not know.

 

[TL4S]

RI said the CS was "odd" and had "signatures." We now know the killer took a souvenir piece of clothing, moved and staged the bodies, and probably left bloody. LE also recently told the family they believe it was SM-related and put out the a_shots ask.

I don't know what, if anything, RL had to do with the murders that day, but I'm having trouble picturing him as a catfishing, depraved killer.

 

[twall]

A FABULOUS SUMMATION and timeline leading to KK trial scheduled for May 2022. It has helped me understand ISP Superintendent Carter's line "We have spoken to you or someone close to you."

Kegan Kline Trial Updates

Stay up to date with our trial timeline.

juryfile.com

I did not realize his home was searched on Feb. 25, 2017 and that he hid "the phone with the apps" from the police and then started erasing info!!!
(This is the case I have always hoped would be solved.)
I am a self acknowledged technology dunce...no FB, Twitter, Yubo, Kik, Tik, Yubo, Yellow, Rumble, instagram, facetime, zoom, snapchat etc....so my contribution can only be "copy and paste" a link.

KK trial is now scheduled for Sept./Oct.

Docket at link, type in his name

Indiana Courts Case Search - MyCase

Indiana Supreme Court, Public Access

public.courts.in.gov

 

[iamnotagolem]

RI said the CS was "odd" and had "signatures." We now know the killer took a souvenir piece of clothing, moved and staged the bodies, and probably left bloody. LE also recently told the family they believe it was SM-related and put out the a_shots ask.

I don't know what, if anything, RL had to do with the murders that day, but I'm having trouble picturing him as a catfishing, depraved killer.

BBM, I don’t know that those are mutually exclusive. I think RL could be BG but not the killer and not the catfisher.

In most cases you KISS (keep it simple s…) but this case seems like it’s anything but simple. KAK seems to have started the AS account but doesn’t seem to be the one who was talking to Libby. AS seems to be who catfished Libby, possibly luring her to the bridge. The catfish may or may not be the killer. RL seems to have been involved or aware of what happened but IMO probably not the killer.

RL may be BG, as stated above by @Barbieshell , maybe he chased the girls away as the were at the end of the bridge. Maybe when he heard later that day they were missing he freaked out for having encountered them and sending them “down the hill” and went looking for them, found them dead, then decided he needed an alibi.

But the chances of these poor girls encountering so much evil from multiple sources seems astronomical.

 

[IceIce9]

RI said the CS was "odd" and had "signatures." We now know the killer took a souvenir piece of clothing, moved and staged the bodies, and probably left bloody. LE also recently told the family they believe it was SM-related and put out the a_shots ask.

I don't know what, if anything, RL had to do with the murders that day, but I'm having trouble picturing him as a catfishing, depraved killer.

I am thinking something along the lines of RL noticing someone in the vicinity and not mentioning to LE. Or withholding information of some sort.

I saw RL interviews countless times on all the local indianapolis news channels and I have a hard time seeing him as a catfishing, depraved killer as well.

 

[JnRyan]

Just my own opinion, Sandy, but maybe we are over-analyzing that. I think maybe "no visible signs of struggle" doesn't mean "no struggle." I think it probably just means there were no overt signs visible to the investigators. The autopsies may have shown other signs, not visible to the naked eye, and it may be that those weren't mentioned in the warrant because LE didn't want too much information out in the public eye. Maybe that's wrong, too; just my guess.

But "no signs of struggle" doesn't automatically mean "no struggle," IMO. When a barn burns down, there may be no signs of arson at the initial investigation but that doesn't mean there was no arson--just that they didn't see signs of it. And further investigations would be undertaken if there are suspicions. Is that logical or am I misreading it?

So IOW, just as another example if the initial CS investigators state the victim didn't appear to struggle/fight AND the ME later finds tissue under the victim's fingernails can one state there was 'no visible sign of a struggle'?

In my example, is such a statement in an affidavit really truthful? It makes me wonder what the writer is trying to convey to the judge. A quick, cold execution style murder?

I've never been involved in writing or assisting with an affidavit - not for a murder at least - so I don't know if the presence or absence of a struggle is boilerplate stuff. If it isn't I don't see the purpose of even commenting on it.