It is in the published OAG statement and if I remember correctly it states they were unable to determine if the damage to the facial area was before death or post death. And those injuries would NOT have been fatal if they occurred before death.
Found Deceased TX - Thomas Brown, 18, Hemphill County, 23 Nov 2016 #3
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This report released information to the public that was only released because of Klein making such a mockery of this entire case. It has some pretty eye opening information….
OutWest
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The question in the preceeding post was NOT whether there were injuries or the severity of injurites ...... the question was regarding the fact that OAG stated in 8/2019 that there were no skull injuries; then released info that there are skull injuries in the 10/2021 info release. For some reason (or maybe for no reason) they decided to release that information.
OutWest
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<modsnip - quoted post was removed>
Yes, a number of what appear to be questionable actions and/or unanswered questions. I get it. But there are many, many other questions and/or actions that never seem to be addressed by the "family conspiracists". Anybody can arrive at a desired “conclusion” if they selectively choose only information that fits the narrative that they wish to express. It is done all the time in fields such as advertising and government.
I do not know what happened to Tom. Hopefully, some day the truth will be known. But, in order to arrive at the full truth, one must be willing to consider ALL evidence and circumstances ….. or at least a true investigative effort to find answers.
The OAG informational packet contained a lot of information but it did not disclose much new information. They listed a significant number of activities/efforts on behalf of the investigation BUT they disclosed very little information regarding the RESULTS of those efforts. The total intent of the information release was simply to preempt Klein. Nothing more.
Regarding the OAG information, we know who submitted to 4 of the 9 polygraph exams but we don’t actually fully know the results; just bits and pieces. Also, we don’t know who submitted to the other 5 exams. We don’t know where the 9 formal searches were conducted or what, if any, evidence was found. We do not know the results of the 99 interviews/contacts. And, there was very little information disclosed regarding the 150 search warrants and subpoenas. We know that OAG did a cell “tower dump” but we don’t know anything they may or may not have learned.
Just IMO, I am impressed by the amount of effort that OAG has put forth on the case. But there are MANY other questions that remain unanswered at this point. Some are:
The friend of TuB (TR) would be a direct witness but there is no public information (that I am aware of) regarding his statements or interviews; you can bet your life that he definitely was questioned.
Why did early investigators neglect to conduct a thorough investigation into all possibilities as related to the evidence that was clearly available at the time? (LE involved at the time were actually very experienced and not inexperienced as some have suggested.)
Why were searchers turned back from the gate at Lake Marvin Road?
Regarding the deputy who found the remains: why was he looking for deer antler sheds at a time 2+ months earlier that when deer normally shed antlers?
Why did OAG initially choose to not disclose the skull fracture information? Just curious.
What was the cause of the facial injuries? Assault? Very important question.
What is the significance of the 25 caliber casing inside the vehicle and the small pistol case found close to other discarded items along Lake Marvin Road? Murder? Was a firearm utilized in a suicide then another person disposed of the firearm?
Once again, if suicide is suggested …. then what was the cause for the facial fractures? Important question.
Why did the CCTV footage from the two most important locations disappear?
Why did the Fronk Tech make a very detailed statement to OAG, then during subsequent questioning become extremely nervous only to have a sudden total lapse of memory and recant his original statement? Very odd to say the least. OAG though this memory lapse was so strange that they issued a warrant to view his phone records.
As noted before, IMO there are simply too many questions remaining to arrive at any valid conclusion.
Yes, a number of what appear to be questionable actions and/or unanswered questions. I get it. But there are many, many other questions and/or actions that never seem to be addressed by the "family conspiracists". Anybody can arrive at a desired “conclusion” if they selectively choose only information that fits the narrative that they wish to express. It is done all the time in fields such as advertising and government.
I do not know what happened to Tom. Hopefully, some day the truth will be known. But, in order to arrive at the full truth, one must be willing to consider ALL evidence and circumstances ….. or at least a true investigative effort to find answers.
The OAG informational packet contained a lot of information but it did not disclose much new information. They listed a significant number of activities/efforts on behalf of the investigation BUT they disclosed very little information regarding the RESULTS of those efforts. The total intent of the information release was simply to preempt Klein. Nothing more.
Regarding the OAG information, we know who submitted to 4 of the 9 polygraph exams but we don’t actually fully know the results; just bits and pieces. Also, we don’t know who submitted to the other 5 exams. We don’t know where the 9 formal searches were conducted or what, if any, evidence was found. We do not know the results of the 99 interviews/contacts. And, there was very little information disclosed regarding the 150 search warrants and subpoenas. We know that OAG did a cell “tower dump” but we don’t know anything they may or may not have learned.
Just IMO, I am impressed by the amount of effort that OAG has put forth on the case. But there are MANY other questions that remain unanswered at this point. Some are:
The friend of TuB (TR) would be a direct witness but there is no public information (that I am aware of) regarding his statements or interviews; you can bet your life that he definitely was questioned.
Why did early investigators neglect to conduct a thorough investigation into all possibilities as related to the evidence that was clearly available at the time? (LE involved at the time were actually very experienced and not inexperienced as some have suggested.)
Why were searchers turned back from the gate at Lake Marvin Road?
Regarding the deputy who found the remains: why was he looking for deer antler sheds at a time 2+ months earlier that when deer normally shed antlers?
Why did OAG initially choose to not disclose the skull fracture information? Just curious.
What was the cause of the facial injuries? Assault? Very important question.
What is the significance of the 25 caliber casing inside the vehicle and the small pistol case found close to other discarded items along Lake Marvin Road? Murder? Was a firearm utilized in a suicide then another person disposed of the firearm?
Once again, if suicide is suggested …. then what was the cause for the facial fractures? Important question.
Why did the CCTV footage from the two most important locations disappear?
Why did the Fronk Tech make a very detailed statement to OAG, then during subsequent questioning become extremely nervous only to have a sudden total lapse of memory and recant his original statement? Very odd to say the least. OAG though this memory lapse was so strange that they issued a warrant to view his phone records.
As noted before, IMO there are simply too many questions remaining to arrive at any valid conclusion.
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Just wondering, do people here believe the OAG claim that a Durango seen at 1:10am in the direction of Tom's house, and 1:11am back in the direction of town; and the Durango seen heading towards Tom's house at 5:28am, and back again at 5:30am is actually Tom's Durango? or another one? or are they lying? I think PM mentioned that Canadian had three red Durangos, and it would seem highly unlikely another one (not Tom's) was out driving around at those hours.
This leads on to my main question - if there was no suicide/accident cover-up, this means homicide...if someone (not family) killed Tom, why on earth would they be driving his Durango anywhere near his house? Surely that's the last place you would go near, especially with the unique white writing on the windows. This to me points towards suicide/accident cover-up. If I'm being honest, I wouldn't event consider an accident an option...how could Tom go from pumping gas to a fatal accident when he was so close to his home? He wasn't playing around with a gun and shot himself by mistake.
This leads on to my main question - if there was no suicide/accident cover-up, this means homicide...if someone (not family) killed Tom, why on earth would they be driving his Durango anywhere near his house? Surely that's the last place you would go near, especially with the unique white writing on the windows. This to me points towards suicide/accident cover-up. If I'm being honest, I wouldn't event consider an accident an option...how could Tom go from pumping gas to a fatal accident when he was so close to his home? He wasn't playing around with a gun and shot himself by mistake.
OutWest
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According to OAG information, Tom’s iPhone battery died at 12:23 AM. According to multiple sources Tom was fanatical about keeping his phone battery charged; he had two cigarette lighter type 12v receptacles w/chargers inside the vehicle (as per photos) but obviously did not use them that night. It would be outside of Tom’s normal behavioral pattern to drive around for 6+ hours with a dead phone when he had car chargers readily available. Normal behavioral patterns matter. For that reason, I believe it was not Tom driving the Durango around. IMO, by the time the Durango was recorded on Alexander’s CCTV the first time, Tom had been dead or incapacitated for 1 ½ hours.
IMO, whoever was driving the vehicle was not aimlessly parading around town. They avoided most of 2nd Street and Main Street and therefore were able to purposely avoid every CCTV at local businesses with the exception of the Alexander’s location and the Jones Pavilion. That behavior smells like “involvement”, whether it be in a homicide or a suicide. Whoever was driving that vehicle knows the truth. Whoever was driving that vehicle only risked driving in town when, for some reason, they felt they HAD to do so.
IMO, whoever was driving the vehicle was not aimlessly parading around town. They avoided most of 2nd Street and Main Street and therefore were able to purposely avoid every CCTV at local businesses with the exception of the Alexander’s location and the Jones Pavilion. That behavior smells like “involvement”, whether it be in a homicide or a suicide. Whoever was driving that vehicle knows the truth. Whoever was driving that vehicle only risked driving in town when, for some reason, they felt they HAD to do so.
OutWest
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Just my thoughts and opinion …….. too much has been made of the theory regarding why the driver of the Durango twice turned onto Birch Street traveling east, then about 1-2 minutes later was recorded driving west on Birch Street. It seems that the general consensus among some is that the driver was driving “toward” Tom’s house for the purpose of getting a view the house, for whatever reason.
Consider this, if a person were to drive easterly on Birch Street ….. when they came to the intersection of the street that Tom used to live on, they would not be able to see the house at the end of his street, some 980 feet distant with a view that is obscured by trees and other houses. Also, there would be no reason to approach the house from the Birch Street route because the house would actually be clearly visible (no tree or house obstruction) from 2nd Street (main drag through town).
So, IMO the question becomes, “What other reasons would there be that the driver twice turned briefly onto Birch Street at 1:20 AM and at 5:25 AM (approximate times)?”.
Consider this, if a person were to drive easterly on Birch Street ….. when they came to the intersection of the street that Tom used to live on, they would not be able to see the house at the end of his street, some 980 feet distant with a view that is obscured by trees and other houses. Also, there would be no reason to approach the house from the Birch Street route because the house would actually be clearly visible (no tree or house obstruction) from 2nd Street (main drag through town).
So, IMO the question becomes, “What other reasons would there be that the driver twice turned briefly onto Birch Street at 1:20 AM and at 5:25 AM (approximate times)?”.
OutWest
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Just IMO. Probably somewhere along Lake Marvin Road in the area of the Gene Howe property (i.e. near where backpack was placed) because an accomplace failed to show up to provide a ride back to town. Just nervously waiting for an opportunity to come back into town before sunrise once searches subsided. Pretty good coordination effort, I would say: Deputy Pyne Gregory returned Tucker home at 5:56 AM; Jones Pavilion CCTV recorded Durango driving by at 5:56 AM.
jellybean96
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Including this because it has been such a part of the 'side show' in Toms case:
(SNIPPED from Kleins FB page)
Public Statement :
This afternoon we have been advised that the Texas Association of Licensed Investigators has terminated and expelled Michelle Gomez from the association, and have forwarded a complaint against Gomez to the Governing Agency, The Texas Department of Public Safety.
TALI has begun and will continue to weed out those who attempt to circumvent the Laws of Texas and not follow the mandates by the legislature to protect the citizens of Texas. This now opens the door to civil and criminal penalties by the state of Texas and civil law. Gomez has a long history over the past ten years of not only violating Texas Law, but as an unlicensed private investigator with now five or more complaints to TALI and the State of Texas Department of Public Safety.
Gomez, who in the past, and continues to operate using a company name that is not registered in the state of Texas. As well, she reports herself as a private investigator investigating the Thomas Brown case, without a client. The board, in its wisdom, and post an investigation, unanimously voted for her expulsion and formal complaint to the Texas DPS.
Hemphill County and the State of Texas OAG has been notified.
Staff
(SNIPPED from Kleins FB page)
Public Statement :
This afternoon we have been advised that the Texas Association of Licensed Investigators has terminated and expelled Michelle Gomez from the association, and have forwarded a complaint against Gomez to the Governing Agency, The Texas Department of Public Safety.
TALI has begun and will continue to weed out those who attempt to circumvent the Laws of Texas and not follow the mandates by the legislature to protect the citizens of Texas. This now opens the door to civil and criminal penalties by the state of Texas and civil law. Gomez has a long history over the past ten years of not only violating Texas Law, but as an unlicensed private investigator with now five or more complaints to TALI and the State of Texas Department of Public Safety.
Gomez, who in the past, and continues to operate using a company name that is not registered in the state of Texas. As well, she reports herself as a private investigator investigating the Thomas Brown case, without a client. The board, in its wisdom, and post an investigation, unanimously voted for her expulsion and formal complaint to the Texas DPS.
Hemphill County and the State of Texas OAG has been notified.
Staff
NeverPersonal
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I wish someone could tell me the best pages to read because I don't think I could go through all of it, but I am tempted to try! Why do you think they released this due to Klein? I've been following the case since the beginning but didn't get deep into the war of private investigators, MG vs Klein, etc, <modsnip>
yeah, Tucker, i'd assume
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nannymo
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Anyone who thinks Klein always takes up for his client's even when they are involved needs to research Deor Koontz case. The family hired Klein to help find Deor and when he started investigating, he found information that strongly indicated the parents were involved. Of course they did not like that, but he stuck to his guns. Just go read about all that with an open mind and you will see what I am talking about.
I am not a big fan of Klein, but I really do not think he would continue with PM and family if he thought they were involved. <modsnip>
If you want to blame the family for hiring a PI so early in the investigation, go back and see what LE was stating. He was a gay kid who ran off to Denver with an older man! They would not waiver from that scenario until proven otherwise and that took finding his body! I am not sold on the fact LE was involved, but as a Mother, I know I would have hired a PI if LE would not listen to what I was telling them about my child. You also have to realize the Sheriff had a "beef" with Penny. That cannot be overlooked. Time proved the Sheriff wrong......not Mom!
I am not a big fan of Klein, but I really do not think he would continue with PM and family if he thought they were involved. <modsnip>
If you want to blame the family for hiring a PI so early in the investigation, go back and see what LE was stating. He was a gay kid who ran off to Denver with an older man! They would not waiver from that scenario until proven otherwise and that took finding his body! I am not sold on the fact LE was involved, but as a Mother, I know I would have hired a PI if LE would not listen to what I was telling them about my child. You also have to realize the Sheriff had a "beef" with Penny. That cannot be overlooked. Time proved the Sheriff wrong......not Mom!
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without having the specific interview in front of me it was pertaining to the first search at Lake Marvin area when the LE car was parked. Klein stated at that time the LE were searching that area so searchers were dispatched the other directions. Later on in other interviews he stated they were actually stopped/blocked from searching that area by LE. And that area was not even the area where Tom was found. I believe later when he was found Klein stated something to the fact that no they had not missed him but they only had not searched that particular area yet.
OutWest
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<modsnip - quoted post was removed>
A popular exercise that is sometimes conducted in communication training seminars is: You take one person into a room and show them a photograph along with a short paragraph that describes an incident. You remove the photo and text then send another to the room. Person 1 verbally describes the photo/text to Person 2. Person 1 leaves and Person 3 enters. Person 2 describes to Person 3 what they were told. Person 2 leaves ….. and so on until 5 people have participated. It is amazing how the photo description and narrative changes somewhat between Persons 1 & 2. By the time Person 5 repeats the story, absolutely nothing is accurate at all; frequently even additional unrelated information is added to the description!
The lesson is, just as you point out, eyewitnesses can be unreliable. More so when stress and emotion are involved. Even more so after months or years have passed. Memories fade. Miscommunication and misunderstanding happens frequently. Yet we see some that attempt to point out small variations in time and/or in statements while correlating such to evidence of guilt. This was very evident in the most recent episode with the mystery radio guest, IMO.
Just saying that there are still a LOT of pieces to the puzzle that are missing. IMO, too many missing pieces to arrive at a conclusion.
A popular exercise that is sometimes conducted in communication training seminars is: You take one person into a room and show them a photograph along with a short paragraph that describes an incident. You remove the photo and text then send another to the room. Person 1 verbally describes the photo/text to Person 2. Person 1 leaves and Person 3 enters. Person 2 describes to Person 3 what they were told. Person 2 leaves ….. and so on until 5 people have participated. It is amazing how the photo description and narrative changes somewhat between Persons 1 & 2. By the time Person 5 repeats the story, absolutely nothing is accurate at all; frequently even additional unrelated information is added to the description!
The lesson is, just as you point out, eyewitnesses can be unreliable. More so when stress and emotion are involved. Even more so after months or years have passed. Memories fade. Miscommunication and misunderstanding happens frequently. Yet we see some that attempt to point out small variations in time and/or in statements while correlating such to evidence of guilt. This was very evident in the most recent episode with the mystery radio guest, IMO.
Just saying that there are still a LOT of pieces to the puzzle that are missing. IMO, too many missing pieces to arrive at a conclusion.
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OutWest
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I find it curious that there is no information/discussion regarding statements that TuB's friend TR may have made regarding his observations during the morning that he was with family members. No references from OAG, HCSO, Klein, Gomez, or family. Just silence on that matter for 5+ years.
OutWest
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The recorded meeting held in Pampa on 8/2019. I believe one reference is at around 00:23:30. The answer to a question regarding whether there was any finding of damage to the skull; the response was no (i think response was from Sgt. Kading).
I agree Outwest. Certainly he was interviewed. He would have been (or so I think) front and center when the family got concerned that TB had not returned at his curfew. His observations of any kind would be helpful.
Also, Klein said he thought the dogs had come to the Brown's house. It's my belief that the dogs never entered the house. If they did come by, it was to pick up TB's clothes from one of the Meeks.
I would reinterview the friend who had been at the house that night. Maybe since some time has passed, additional info or observations can be better recalled.
OutWest
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The 5th episode of KXDJ's series featuring former state investigator Crain aired last week. The episode is available on Soundcloud.
Listen for yourself. Just IMO, the session was 1 hour+ of a re-cap describing many of the antics, missteps, and seemingly irrational comments made by Klein over the past several years. Many persons following the case were already aware of these apparent credibility issues. Nothing really new there.
However, Crain's last statement is very interesting. Listen for yourself.
Listen for yourself. Just IMO, the session was 1 hour+ of a re-cap describing many of the antics, missteps, and seemingly irrational comments made by Klein over the past several years. Many persons following the case were already aware of these apparent credibility issues. Nothing really new there.
However, Crain's last statement is very interesting. Listen for yourself.
nannymo
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I am listening to the 4th episode of KXDJ's series. I just feel they are bashing Klein. I understand some of his frustration with Klein, but I am really wanting to refute some of the things they are talking about, but feel I don't have all of the info I feel I need. Do any of you have info to refute what MC is stating?
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