Kyron Horman Discussion Thread 2020 - 2022

[Truth Prevails]

And I don't think an indictment will come, unless, as Fergus stated, the FBI becomes involved. Should that happen, I'm still doubtful given that a grand jury was convened, during which DeDe testified with immunity. I would think if the evidence was there, the indictment would have come then. MOO

Even by her own admission, that claim was "unofficial". Due to the original source and whatnot, I highly doubt it.

Kyron Horman case: DeDe Spicher says she's 'unofficially' cleared in boy's disappearance

DeDe Spicher, a friend of Kyron Horman's stepmother, told .com that she testified before a Multnomah County grand jury in July, passed a polygraph test and agreed to an immunity deal with prosecutors.

www.oregonlive.com

But, what does she "unofficially" claim she was given immunity for? Since this supposed immunity has only been mentioned in the discussion of the disappearance of 7-year-old Kyron Richard Horman, I think it's a safe bet to say that her involvement with Kyron was due to her involvement with his stepmother who was called a de facto suspect in his disappearance by her divorce attorney.

Terri Moulton Horman, focus in stepson Kyron Horman's disappearance, shows for divorce hearing

Today's hearing dealt with whether to hold two separate hearings on Terri Horman's request to delay the divorce proceeding and Kaine Horman's motion to learn where Terri obtained money to pay for Houze, a high-profile criminal defense lawyer. The judge will hold one hearing Oct. 7 on both matters.

www.oregonlive.com

Therefore, wouldn't the reason for DeDe's need for "unofficial" immunity indicate Terri was involved with Kyron's disappearance and DeDe needed immunity for her part in it so she wouldn't have to go to prison?

Or do they boast about an "unofficial" immunity deal because they think it means she was innocent? Of what?

 

[FergusMcDuck]

So, hopefully, a few people may agree that there would exist a “blind” or a “hidden patch” on the right side of the vehicle. No one at the church or on Skyline Road could see what was happening there. Fingers crossed, we can all understand that she couldn’t be seen by anyone at the school or in the south side parking lot, either. Assuming she wasn’t amid another Alzheimer’s attack, she could use her own faculties to see if anyone, by any slim chance, was near enough to witness what was about to happen.

If you use Google Street View and place yourself at the entrance to the southern parking lot of Skyline School, and face northwestward looking down Skyline Boulevard, I, at least, can see that "hidden patch" perfectly. Not even elevation helps, really, since Skyline Boulevard slopes downwards and the access road is more visible from the parking lot than right below it. This would also have occurred between 8:45 and 9:00, when dozens of parents would get in their cars and drive onto Skyline Boulevard. Everyone turning an immediate right would have a perfect view of the clandestine deed, and Terri would have no real way of seeing them in advance.

It would be an incredibly poor choice of place for a murder.

It could have happened very quickly. She could have opened the door and told him to get in. She could have attacked him from behind. It wouldn’t have taken long. One blow. One push.

I’m saying this only as one possibility. I don’t know what happened. No one knows what happened but her. (If anyone else was possibly involved that person would only know their own part). And she won’t talk. My guess is she will never talk. She’s having fun with this. But I hope enough of us stick around to let her know that we will never forget.

I think at some point we have to realize how contrived the scenarios for the abduction and murder of Kyron by Terri have become. Every explanation needed to explain a hole in the theory contradicts another.

* Terri took Kyron to school and then clandestinely snuck him out, not signing him out, so everyone would believe he was still at the school. She leaves his jacket and backpack at school.
* Of course, Kyron would have been noted as missing as soon as the class gathered just before 9:00, which means Terri would have been called immediately after leaving the school with Kyron.
* This was averted by the teacher believing Kyron was at a doctor's appointment, delaying discovery for seven hours. But if that was sloppiness on behalf of the teacher, Terri would have no way of knowing or controlling that delay. So Terri must have informed the teacher about the (false) appointment deliberately.
* But if Terri informed the teacher about the (false) appointment, the school knows Kyron went with Terri, meaning sneaking out was completely pointless, and everyone knew exactly who Kyron walked out with and where he was.
* Terri had the chance to kill and hide Kyron in the 90 minutes she drove on rural roads in the forested hills.
* Prior to those 90 minutes she spent over an hour shopping in the city. This is supposedly to establish an alibi.
* But those stores are in the city, public parking lots in urban areas, and she goes into the stores with the baby, with Kyron still in the car. So she establishes her alibi for Kyron's abduction, with the victim in the car right outside?
* To circumvent this, we can try saying she had already killed Kyron before. Since there's no real time and place to do it, we can say she took a wild chance killing him right by the school, hoping no one noticed.
* But what, then, is the point of those "missing" 90 minutes? Kyron was already dead, it wouldn't take her 90 minutes to drive to a forest, toss him, and drive back. She's creating an alibi for an hour and then leaving an unnecessary gap for 90 minutes?
* For that matter, what is the point of killing Kyron at the school when you've supposedly made the school believe you were taking him to an appointment?

That's not even going into the case of DeDe Spicher, whose involvement would not solve a single problem that existed with the scenarios were Terri was alone.

Justice for a 7-year-old boy! Justice for sweet Kyron! Shame on law enforcement.

Agreed on all three, especially the last. Bring in the FBI already. They're far from perfect, but if Desiree is to be believed they were probably far closer to the truth than the MCSO.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

But, what does she "unofficially" claim she was given immunity for? Since this supposed immunity has only been mentioned in the discussion of the disappearance of 7-year-old Kyron Richard Horman, I think it's a safe bet to say that her involvement with Kyron was due to her involvement with his stepmother who was called a de facto suspect in his disappearance by her divorce attorney.

Terri Moulton Horman, focus in stepson Kyron Horman's disappearance, shows for divorce hearing

Today's hearing dealt with whether to hold two separate hearings on Terri Horman's request to delay the divorce proceeding and Kaine Horman's motion to learn where Terri obtained money to pay for Houze, a high-profile criminal defense lawyer. The judge will hold one hearing Oct. 7 on both matters.

www.oregonlive.com

Therefore, wouldn't the reason for DeDe's need for "unofficial" immunity indicate Terri was involved with Kyron's disappearance and DeDe needed immunity for her part in it so she wouldn't have to go to prison?

Or it could be her unemployment benefits scam.

If the police had dangled this above her to get her to "talk" (i.e. take a polygraph), it would be in their best interest to give her immunity for it.

 

[sketchyjen33]

Thank you for the information. Unfortunately they don't seem to be forthcoming with the parameters, method(s), and scope of data collection or analysis.

The full report...

https://www.missingkids.org/content/dam/missingkids/pdfs/ncmec-analysis/attemptedabductions10yearanalysisjune2016.pdf

 

[sketchyjen33]

Here's another report on missing kids (I tried to add screenshots from it since it's a rather lengthy read and won't upload but they were taken down...my bad). You can read the PDF regarding body location sites/Victim stats/Offender stats.

Investigative Case Management for Missing Children Homicides: Report II | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

 

[Truth Prevails]

Or it could be her unemployment benefits scam.

If the police had dangled this above her to get her to "talk" (i.e. take a polygraph), it would be in their best interest to give her immunity for it.

So you think they offered to drop the charges on the scam she was running by both working and collecting benefits at the same time--a scam she finally admitted to, under oath, at least a year prior to this most likely imaginary "unofficial" immunity deal?

Surely law enforcement had her on that long before she admitted it; so what would take them so long to offer immunity, if they did?

What would be gained by withholding a money scam she ran as the reason for the "unofficial deal"? We all knew about it and she knew we all knew. Why wouldn't she have given it as the reason for this get-out-of jail-free deal in even the unorthodox interview? Better yet, why not contact a valid investigative reporter such as Kyle Iboshi from KGW Channel 8 so we would all believe?

And if she didn't know anything about Kyron's disappearance and law enforcement was not onto her money scam, why was she afraid to take a polygraph and testify about her lack of knowledge in the disappearance of Kyron Horman? Or why is she still afraid, because I don't believe she did either.

 

[Truth Prevails]

I think at some point we have to realize how contrived the scenarios for the abduction and murder of Kyron by Terri have become. Every explanation needed to explain a hole in the theory contradicts another.

It's a mystery, that's for sure--who she hired and why she did the things she did.

Perhaps I simply don't have a good enough criminal mind.

However, sometimes suggested contradictions exist because there are those who cannot afford to admit the value of the points for their own reasons.

In my opinion, depending on the circumstances, my points stand well. Perhaps I hit a nerve, hmm.

 

[Truth Prevails]

She's creating an alibi for an hour and then leaving an unnecessary gap for 90 minutes?

I think for my past effort I have earned the right to say this. I may get a time out, but I'm going to say it anyway.

It appears to me you are finally admitting that the timeline is not so tight--there is an "unnecessary gap for 90 minutes".

Or is that meant to be another of your little twists on my words?

In any event, I agree. Please continue. This is getting interesting.

 

[ReadySet]

It's been twelve years. As far as I can see there hasn't been movement in the case since 2013-14 when DeDe testified to the grand jury. If they had evidence, they would have indicted by now.

The only way I see a solution to this case is to take it out of the hands of the MCSO. Since they're obviously convinced Terri did it, they won't look into any other leads seriously, but without any evidence they can't get an indictment either. So they're stuck. They'll say they're working on it once or twice a year, usually when some anniversary comes up, but apart from hoping Terri would break and confess, I don't see them doing anything.

I could be wrong, but I really, really doubt it.

You never know when new evidence might appear.
Witnesses who have been silent for years someteims speak up. Witnesses sometimes confess that they lied in the beginning.
Items are found. Items are turned in.
Suspects sometimes let things slip.
It happens.

 

[ReadySet]

I don't think seeing a child's coat and backpack present would be sufficient to assume the child was coming back. Even in 2010, teachers had to be alert to such trickery, and I believe she was.

She had an email from the stepmother excusing his absence. To the best of my knowledge, the full contents of that email have never been released. For instance, did it say that Kyron would be returning for the afternoon; or would he be absent for the whole day?

I suspect it specified his absence would be for the whole day because that would nullify his appearance in the afternoon talent show, and also because the school's response when the bus driver notified them that Kyron wasn't on the bus was that he hadn't been at school that day. The response was quick and sure. Kaine thought there must have been a mix-up, so he immediately drove to the school. (Yes, yes, I know he took her and their baby with him).

So why did she leave Kyron's coat and backpack behind when she left with him right after the 8:45 am bell? Any decent, responsible person placed with the care of a 7-year-old child would have reminded him to get his coat before going outside on such a day.

There are three things here that come to my mind. The first one being: did she feel it would have attracted extra attention to their leaving? It would have taken a little longer, plus it would have signified they were going outside, not just to another part of the school. Perhaps she felt it would have created an event that lasted long enough in people's memory, even the children, that more of them would have remembered her leaving with Kyron.

The second thing is: did Kyron even realize she was going to lead him outside? A coat would have been a signal that might have made him publically resist. The attendance bell had just rung; he knew what that meant. What was about to happen would not have happened had he held out in any way. She couldn't risk it.

The last one is the most unthinkable, but did she want him to be as cold and as miserable as possible for his remaining time?

And then, on June 4th, the very day of his disappearance, law enforcement let her and Kaine take his coat and backpack home. She didn't miss her chance. She promptly washed them.

That should never, ever have happened. Those items should be under the care and custody of LE to this very day.

rsbm
I don't think seeing a child's coat and backpack present would be sufficient to assume the child was coming back. Even in 2010, teachers had to be alert to such trickery, and I believe she was.

I think all three of your reasons for Terri leaving Kyron's coat and backpack behind are likely.
As a long time teacher in multiple schools at multiple grade levels, I can tell you that kids leave their stuff behind all the time. Teachers know that the presence of a coat does not necessarily mean the student is present. And it's not like the teacher does a "coat and backpack" check throughout the day.
I had students, even older than Kyron, leave their stuff in my room for days at a time. I've informed parents their things were there and sometimes the parents don't even pick it up. At the end of every semester, in schools across the country, parents are informed that there is a large pile of lost and found items that need to go home. Even then, nice coats, gloves, backpacks and school supplies end up being unclaimed. The point is, that to LE and the public, it would look like the teacher was negligent because Kyron's things being in the room should have signaled that he was there and hadn't gone home. In reality, no.

Senario:
Terri emails the teacher that Kyron has an appointment Friday.
When no one is around to overhear, she reminds the teacher verbally that morning about the appointment. Perhaps the teacher reminded her to check him out at the front office. But she didn't.
She leaves his coat and backpack.
She takes him out the door (not the front entrance)or directs him to follow or meet her. The authority he had been reminded to listen to included her.
The teacher marks him absent because a parent directly telling you they are taking the student means they are absent.
Although Terri never managed to get a full-time teaching position, she had several long-term sub positions at different schools. She was familiar with how schools worked and how teachers think.
When it was realized that Kyron was not at school all day, Terri hoped that the teacher would be blamed. "How do you mess that up?" in regard to the teacher, was one of the things she said in the days after the disappearance. But the teacher had been told by Terri that he was leaving for the rest of the day.
Terri hoped that the fact his things were still in the classroom would make it seem that he didn't leave the school willingly, that "a man" took him. She wanted LE and others to think, wow, his stuff is here, so the teacher must have known he was here, why did he mark him absent. Why didn't she tell the office that a student was missing? Because the teacher believed that Kyron had left with Terri.

 

[Truth Prevails]

rsbm
I don't think seeing a child's coat and backpack present would be sufficient to assume the child was coming back. Even in 2010, teachers had to be alert to such trickery, and I believe she was.

I think all three of your reasons for Terri leaving Kyron's coat and backpack behind are likely.
As a long time teacher in multiple schools at multiple grade levels, I can tell you that kids leave their stuff behind all the time. Teachers know that the presence of a coat does not necessarily mean the student is present. And it's not like the teacher does a "coat and backpack" check throughout the day.
I had students, even older than Kyron, leave their stuff in my room for days at a time. I've informed parents their things were there and sometimes the parents don't even pick it up. At the end of every semester, in schools across the country, parents are informed that there is a large pile of lost and found items that need to go home. Even then, nice coats, gloves, backpacks and school supplies end up being unclaimed. The point is, that to LE and the public, it would look like the teacher was negligent because Kyron's things being in the room should have signaled that he was there and hadn't gone home. In reality, no.

Senario:
Terri emails the teacher that Kyron has an appointment Friday.
When no one is around to overhear, she reminds the teacher verbally that morning about the appointment. Perhaps the teacher reminded her to check him out at the front office. But she didn't.
She leaves his coat and backpack.
She takes him out the door (not the front entrance)or directs him to follow or meet her. The authority he had been reminded to listen to included her.
The teacher marks him absent because a parent directly telling you they are taking the student means they are absent.
Although Terri never managed to get a full-time teaching position, she had several long-term sub positions at different schools. She was familiar with how schools worked and how teachers think.
When it was realized that Kyron was not at school all day, Terri hoped that the teacher would be blamed. "How do you mess that up?" in regard to the teacher, was one of the things she said in the days after the disappearance. But the teacher had been told by Terri that he was leaving for the rest of the day.
Terri hoped that the fact his things were still in the classroom would make it seem that he didn't leave the school willingly, that "a man" took him. She wanted LE and others to think, wow, his stuff is here, so the teacher must have known he was here, why did he mark him absent. Why didn't she tell the office that a student was missing? Because the teacher believed that Kyron had left with Terri.

I agree with your scenario. This was carefully planned because she knew it would give her at least a six-hour window of opportunity.

She also volunteered at Skyline. With her "teacher's knowledge" and her personal knowledge of the school, she needed no help in understanding how to get him out without any phone call to Kaine or Desiree being made until it was way too late.

She knew disappearing him from school was the best bet to take the heat off her. I'm sure it didn't quite work as she had hoped, but it still worked well--she is not in a prison yet.

Do we think if she had not taken him to school that morning, it would have worked better for her? I think not. She had to show up at school with Kyron and work her plan from there.

It seems she's a woman who doesn't forgive slights, and I believe she felt slighted by Kyron's teacher. In spite of her DUI and child endangerment conviction, I think she believed she was better qualified to be the 2nd-grade teacher and jealousy is a green-eyed monster. It's possible she took a little bit of extra delight in setting up a plan that could have led to making Kyron's teacher and the school look incompetent. That would have been icing on the cake for her.

I take a small measure of comfort in knowing that everything she wanted didn't go as planned.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

So you think they offered to drop the charges on the scam she was running by both working and collecting benefits at the same time--a scam she finally admitted to, under oath, at least a year prior to this most likely imaginary "unofficial" immunity deal?

Did she admit to the scam under oath? Or did she plead the fifth when the question of payment at the farm came up?

Surely law enforcement had her on that long before she admitted it; so what would take them so long to offer immunity, if they did?

It's not like the MCSO has behaved intelligently in this case.

What would be gained by withholding a money scam she ran as the reason for the "unofficial deal"? We all knew about it and she knew we all knew. Why wouldn't she have given it as the reason for this get-out-of jail-free deal in even the unorthodox interview? Better yet, why not contact a valid investigative reporter such as Kyle Iboshi from KGW Channel 8 so we would all believe?

Why would she admit to something she got immunity for? Either way, if the police aren't going to publicly clear her since they're still (at least at the time) trying to build a case against Terri, there's not much she can do. And quite honestly, the media has behaved pretty one-sidedly in this case.

And if she didn't know anything about Kyron's disappearance and law enforcement was not onto her money scam, why was she afraid to take a polygraph and testify about her lack of knowledge in the disappearance of Kyron Horman? Or why is she still afraid, because I don't believe she did either.

Because polygraphs are as valid as a tarot reading. If the MCSO considers not taking one as not cooperating, and the passing or failing of one as any kind of indication of guilt, they're not serious. But sadly that's how a lot of LEAs operate.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

I think for my past effort I have earned the right to say this. I may get a time out, but I'm going to say it anyway.

It appears to me you are finally admitting that the timeline is not so tight--there is an "unnecessary gap for 90 minutes".

No? The whole point is that the timeline is too tight to have killed Kyron before or during her errand run, and having a living Kyron in her car as she was doing errands in public places defeats any point of an alibi. I don't believe I've said anything else.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Okay. So below is the image with the link underneath it.

It’s from a re-enactment done by law enforcement. I’m not sure if it’s Kaine’s truck, but at least it’s similar. It does not mean it was ever parked there. To me at least, it means they had enough people describe the truck being parked at that location that they went to a great deal of trouble to find out more.

We don’t know what they discovered if anything. And I ask you all to remember that law enforcement does not have to tell the truth. They are allowed to make misleading statements and often do. They could say it was nothing when it was, indeed, something.

So, hopefully, a few people may agree that there would exist a “blind” or a “hidden patch” on the right side of the vehicle. No one at the church or on Skyline Road could see what was happening there. Fingers crossed, we can all understand that she couldn’t be seen by anyone at the school or in the south side parking lot, either. Assuming she wasn’t amid another Alzheimer’s attack, she could use her own faculties to see if anyone, by any slim chance, was near enough to witness what was about to happen.

It could have happened very quickly. She could have opened the door and told him to get in. She could have attacked him from behind. It wouldn’t have taken long. One blow. One push.

I’m saying this only as one possibility. I don’t know what happened. No one knows what happened but her. (If anyone else was possibly involved that person would only know their own part). And she won’t talk. My guess is she will never talk. She’s having fun with this. But I hope enough of us stick around to let her know that we will never forget.

Justice for a 7-year-old boy! Justice for sweet Kyron! Shame on law enforcement.

View attachment 357082
Detectives Seek Public Help in Kyron Horman Case - Salem-News.Com

Why are you heaping shame on Law Enforcement? A grand jury was convened. They chose not to indict. LE has done and continues to do their job.

Concerning your reenactment photo, how does she supposedly get KH from the science fair into the truck without anyone noticing?

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Even by her own admission, that claim was "unofficial". Due to the original source and whatnot, I highly doubt it.

Kyron Horman case: DeDe Spicher says she's 'unofficially' cleared in boy's disappearance

DeDe Spicher, a friend of Kyron Horman's stepmother, told .com that she testified before a Multnomah County grand jury in July, passed a polygraph test and agreed to an immunity deal with prosecutors.

www.oregonlive.com

But, what does she "unofficially" claim she was given immunity for? Since this supposed immunity has only been mentioned in the discussion of the disappearance of 7-year-old Kyron Richard Horman, I think it's a safe bet to say that her involvement with Kyron was due to her involvement with his stepmother who was called a de facto suspect in his disappearance by her divorce attorney.

Terri Moulton Horman, focus in stepson Kyron Horman's disappearance, shows for divorce hearing

Today's hearing dealt with whether to hold two separate hearings on Terri Horman's request to delay the divorce proceeding and Kaine Horman's motion to learn where Terri obtained money to pay for Houze, a high-profile criminal defense lawyer. The judge will hold one hearing Oct. 7 on both matters.

www.oregonlive.com

Therefore, wouldn't the reason for DeDe's need for "unofficial" immunity indicate Terri was involved with Kyron's disappearance and DeDe needed immunity for her part in it so she wouldn't have to go to prison?

Or do they boast about an "unofficial" immunity deal because they think it means she was innocent? Of what?

I think LE and prosecutor's office thought, as you do, that she needed immunity to be able to speak freely about the events of the day KH went missing. They gave her that immunity, and they uncovered no incriminating evidence against Terri. Because the immunity was connected to KH's disappearance, and the GJ decided not to indict, is exactly why some think Terri is likely innocent.

 

[FergusMcDuck]

However, sometimes suggested contradictions exist because there are those who cannot afford to admit the value of the points for their own reasons.

I fully admit that I don't see the value of a masterplan that seems to completely change every time a piece evidence needs to fit into a guilt-centric scenario.

 

[sketchyjen33]

So, if DS has "immunity" on this....does that mean that they have a timeline of her movements that day?

Why would 90 minutes not be enough time to commit a crime and then cover up that crime? To me, that seems like more than enough time.

If only the baby was of talking age when this happened.....

 

[mom2chloe]

I don't think seeing a child's coat and backpack present would be sufficient to assume the child was coming back. Even in 2010, teachers had to be alert to such trickery, and I believe she was.

She had an email from the stepmother excusing his absence. To the best of my knowledge, the full contents of that email have never been released. For instance, did it say that Kyron would be returning for the afternoon; or would he be absent for the whole day?

I suspect it specified his absence would be for the whole day because that would nullify his appearance in the afternoon talent show, and also because the school's response when the bus driver notified them that Kyron wasn't on the bus was that he hadn't been at school that day. The response was quick and sure. Kaine thought there must have been a mix-up, so he immediately drove to the school. (Yes, yes, I know he took her and their baby with him).

So why did she leave Kyron's coat and backpack behind when she left with him right after the 8:45 am bell? Any decent, responsible person placed with the care of a 7-year-old child would have reminded him to get his coat before going outside on such a day.

There are three things here that come to my mind. The first one being: did she feel it would have attracted extra attention to their leaving? It would have taken a little longer, plus it would have signified they were going outside, not just to another part of the school. Perhaps she felt it would have created an event that lasted long enough in people's memory, even the children, that more of them would have remembered her leaving with Kyron.

The second thing is: did Kyron even realize she was going to lead him outside? A coat would have been a signal that might have made him publically resist. The attendance bell had just rung; he knew what that meant. What was about to happen would not have happened had he held out in any way. She couldn't risk it.

The last one is the most unthinkable, but did she want him to be as cold and as miserable as possible for his remaining time?

And then, on June 4th, the very day of his disappearance, law enforcement let her and Kaine take his coat and backpack home. She didn't miss her chance. She promptly washed them.

That should never, ever have happened. Those items should be under the care and custody of LE to this very day.

I’m confused as I thought TH had washed Kyron’s backpack and jacket before the school bus showed up minus Kyron? Thanks in advance to anyone!

 

[FergusMcDuck]

So, if DS has "immunity" on this....does that mean that they have a timeline of her movements that day?

Probably. They weren't exactly complicated. She drove to the farm and worked during the day. DeDe has always claimed that she never left the farm, she was just at the far end of it and didn't hear the dinner call. Her car (with her phone inside) was parked at the farm the whole day.

Why would 90 minutes not be enough time to commit a crime and then cover up that crime? To me, that seems like more than enough time.

It is enough (unless you've gone to Sauvie Island). Had those 90 minutes directly followed Terri's leaving Skyline, I would certainly not feel able to exclude her.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

We can't know what was presented at the GJ. I presume that LE had a solid timeline locked in for DeDe before a GJ was convened, but I don't know that for certain. What I do know for certain is that the GJ did not indict. However many "points" one assigns to that <modsnip> is up to him or her. For me, and for our justice system, it's highly significant and supersedes everything else. IMOO