Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #157

[Bbgiraffe]

"I mean, that's new news," Baldwin said after the hearing. When asked if that was reflected in the probable cause affidavit, Baldwin replied, "not the PCA that I read."

And

Baldwin recognized it may be unusual for defense attorneys to push for more information being unsealed, but he said that points to how confident they are that Allen is not guilty. "That's how confident we are that the evidence contained — at least what's written in the probable cause affidavit — is nothing for us to worry about," Baldwin said. "We're confident that whatever is out there is not going to be enough to show that our client did anything here." Baldwin said Allen is "confused" and "bewildered" at the accusations against him. He also said Allen had plenty of supporters, and they've received many calls from people who don't believe Allen is responsible for the murders. "I've got a guy here who says he's innocent ... and what I would say, a very flimsy probable cause affidavit. Those are the two things that I do know," Baldwin said.

From this article:

Richard Allen's defense team pushes for public release of court documents

"He is innocent. He has told us that very emotionally," defense attorney Andrew Baldwin said after the hearing.

www.wthr.com

Devil's advocate here.... Nicholas Mcleland the prosecutor's arguments against unsealing the probable cause document are basically that some witnesses are minors and that they believe Richard Allen is not the only actor in this. Can't they redact the minor witnesses' names or other identifying information? If there are other actors involved in this, I suppose Richard Allen is pretty confident he will be acquitted or is in fact innocent, otherwise why wouldn't he give up the accomplices to try and avoid the death penalty or on a wing and prayer he would somehow get a parole date.

I know most people say that "of course his defense attorney says he's innocent" but I am wondering, if the real reasons to keep the probable cause sealed are names and info that can be redacted and a theory that more people are involved, even though according to Richard Allen's attorney, who actually wants the probable cause released, no such information about other perpetrators or accomplices is listed in the probable cause affidavit. So what is the real reason they want it sealed? Or better question... who is lying here? Maybe it actually is as flimsy as Richard Allen's attorney says it is and the prosecutor wants to keep it sealed for the families or because they don't really have much and are hoping to find more.

 

[BrownRice]

Presumption of innocence until we see otherwise. I hope the DA has a rock solid case.
but nothing that I have read to this point would convict this man.
furthermore, I feel his family is off limits at this time!

Interesting. Did you join WS for this case? I see your profile date is shortly after the murders. Just curious if you’ve been following it closely.

I do agree the family should be off limits, following the WS TOS.

 

[Snow_In _June]

MOO Diener most likely was shocked he was doxxed and let go of the case because of it.

Talking of Diener, just a little factoid it means nothing at all but I found it interesting. Did you know NM stood against him in 2012 as Carroll Circuit Court Judge?

Diener has opposition in Circuit Court Judge race - Carroll County Comet

NM lost. Give the guy his due he is very ambitious he had only been practising for 3 years at that point.

Diener bests McLeland for Circuit Court Judge - Carroll County Comet

 

[GoBuckeyes]

From your link:

Carter: Well, I think you will remember, I have said from the very beginning, since 2017, a sketch is a sketch. It is not a photograph. That is the first time I have seen that, and I have also indicated over time that once we get where we are today, we will be able to look at the similarities and make a photograph, which will be Richard Allen. I think there is a little bit of both, and I don’t regret that strategy by any means.

So the two sketches per what DC is saying now are indeed both supposed to be BG who in turn is supposed to be Richard Allen. This is where we are today. Are we all on one page now? Is LE all on one page now? I can't tell.

That's one big emphatic NO!! MOO
I'm so confused that he still thinks the 2 sketches were a good idea and effective..Come on now!!

 

[gizmobtj]

I do not expect that the PCA is going to be released and I fully anticipate a publication ban over the trial proceedings as well. If they believe others may still be involved, they'll want to go after them as well, and any information may hinder their ability to bring others to justice.

I have no idea whether RA was involved in whole or in some part. I'm not a fan of secret documents and proceedings. But I do understand that if there are witnesses to any part of the crime or the story itself, they should be protected as much as possible, for as long as possible.

What do you mean by a "publication ban?"

 

[Ontario Mom]

^this this this x 1000 agree agree agree

He's a judge that's what he signed up for its a very well paid, HIGHLy prestigious, politically powerful position, he likely had to be elected to. What would make any other judge any safer (has there been any confirmation of any real danger none that I've seen). @Alethea is 100% right this guy isn't scared of the public or YouTubers or whatever he was scared of being exposed for not being able to do his job. I think the recusal was accepted with out much fan fare b/c it was widely know he was not up to it and the state wants a competent judge for such a big case to not look like fools and to protect a conviction. MS reported that multiple sources in the Indiana legal community had contacted them with concerns about Judge Denier and anecdotes showing him not to be up to this type of thing even before he publicly went full toddler and threw all his toys out of his pram and quit. (see MS November 4th 2022 episode).

I've never listened to MS, so I'm just wondering, who they are & what their backgrounds are? I mean, are they former LE, retired lawyers, etc.?

 

[LammyTheRobot]

I've never listened to MS, so I'm just wondering, who they are & what their backgrounds are? I mean, are they former LE, retired lawyers, etc.?

One’s a journalist, the other an attorney. They’re quite good IMO, methodical and a bit old school compared to many podcasts, in a good way.

 

[Ontario Mom]

Presumption of innocence until we see otherwise. I hope the DA has a rock solid case.
but nothing that I have read to this point would convict this man.
furthermore, I feel his family is off limits at this time!

As per TOS here, his family is 100% off limits.
As per what's been released to the public, there's nothing that anyone has read at this point that would convict a jay-walker. There is nothing for the public to read. Yet.

But the judge that issued the search and arrest warrants did have something to read, and I'll assume he knew what he was doing when he issued the warrant.

jmo

 

[taylorss]

seen it theorized that maybe the LE-referenced “others involved” in this case are not contributors to the crime but people in RA’s life who false-alibi’ed him or similar…

Just wanted to say that the target of this investigation is the person(s) who murdered the girls… IMO catching anyone who EG told a lie after the fact is beside the point & would be dealt with later, if ever. No decisions that affect the killer’s prosecution will be made with the intent of snaring some bit player or side actor JMO

Aaaaaaand on the topic of side actors….. there is a precedent that someone who’s convicted of felony murder but was a bit player in the underlying crime is not eligible for the death penalty … just FYI.

Not saying that’s the case with RA - my assumption is that he’s a (if not the) primary actor …. cuz, thanks to Libby’s amazing quick thinking & bravery, I saw him stalking the girls on that bridge & I heard him kidnap them MOO JMO

But just saying … for those hoping RA pays the ultimate price for this despicable crime, the state is going to have to show more than the bare minimum. if they charged him with felony murder cuz too insecure or inept to take the harder route, they still have work to do
JMO

 

[Alethea]

Had he just recused himself, who cares?
But he did one judicial thing before, he read the PCA and sealed it. You either don’t touch the case, because you are ill fit for it, of if you touched it, you stay.
So the image that emerges in my mind is: the judge reads PCA, then covers his face with his hands. “Oh, it is so explosive, so scary, no one should ever see it, I am sealing it and I am outta here”. So of course the community exploded, what’s in this affidavit? Curiosity, and, for whatever reason, it is a highly known case. Hence the hissy fit. (IMHO, JMO, I am the curious public).

I understand your perspective but I think it’s simpler than that: this judge is inexperienced and did what the prosecutor asked without much thinking. Prosecutor came in and said it was important to seal the affidavit so he did. Then the media started intervening and the judge freaked out because his decision was questioned.

Honestly the professional thing to do would have been to go to a mentor or colleague and say you do not feel that you are experienced enough for a case like this and they could have quietly assigned a special judge. It’s the tantrum orders and emails to the press that make this one really weird IMO.

It has been a trend in high profile cases to seal PCAs. Coming from the perspective of a defense lawyer I don’t think it’s bad for a limited amount of time to allow the defendant to hire counsel and be prepared to respond to the allegations. I’d rather read it myself than see it sensationalized in the New York Post before my client even formally hires me. But the public is so used to open courts now that any even temporary sealing is pushed back against. I think it’s good even if I don’t agree in every case because the state should have to justify everything it does when it comes to enforcing the law against citizens.

 

[Le Singe]

I've never listened to MS, so I'm just wondering, who they are & what their backgrounds are? I mean, are they former LE, retired lawyers, etc.?

my understanding - It is a passion project for both of them that they do on the side. She is a professional business journalist that has writen for some publications you have heard of and he is a lawyer although its unclear to me what type of lawyer or what his specialty is.

 

[TL4S]

So, this is probably obvious to everyone already, but I'm a little slow. I've been wondering what might be in that PCA, and if perhaps I've been thinking about the type of evidence in all the wrong way. The nature of RA's murder charges (resulting murder during the commission of at least one other felony act) might mean that the evidence LE included in that PCA was not necessarily directly pertaining to the murders themselves, but the "other" crime. He's not just some periphery player, though. They have since said RA was the man on the bridge and in both sketches, so there doesn't seem to be any question that they are accusing him of being on location that day. I'm just curious what evidence they could have to show RA was there committing the "other" crime.

 

[LammyTheRobot]

I understand your perspective but I think it’s simpler than that: this judge is inexperienced and did what the prosecutor asked without much thinking. Prosecutor came in and said it was important to seal the affidavit so he did. Then the media started intervening and the judge freaked out because his decision was questioned.

Honestly the professional thing to do would have been to go to a mentor or colleague and say you do not feel that you are experienced enough for a case like this and they could have quietly assigned a special judge. It’s the tantrum orders and emails to the press that make this one really weird IMO.

It has been a trend in high profile cases to seal PCAs. Coming from the perspective of a defense lawyer I don’t think it’s bad for a limited amount of time to allow the defendant to hire counsel and be prepared to respond to the allegations. I’d rather read it myself than see it sensationalized in the New York Post before my client even formally hires me. But the public is so used to open courts now that any even temporary sealing is pushed back against. I think it’s good even if I don’t agree in every case because the state should have to justify everything it does when it comes to enforcing the law against citizens.

The fact that Diener accepted an affidavit without the accompanying oath is alarming. This was stated by RA’s attorney on Tuesday - that the affidavit wasn’t even in its correct form.

Anyone who’s ever signed an affidavit knows there’s an oath section that then gives the document weight (because you’re swearing under penalty of perjury).

 

[photographer4]

What do you mean by a "publication ban?"

I mean they may make a ban so nothing can be released from the PCA to the trial details aside guilty or not guilty until some point in the future when others can be brought to face justice. This has happened in other cases: eg: Paul Bernardo / Karla Holmolka trial - no info was published or released anywhere in Canada because she lied to police and they gave her a sweet deal.

So, this is probably obvious to everyone already, but I'm a little slow. I've been wondering what might be in that PCA, and if perhaps I've been thinking about the type of evidence in all the wrong way. The nature of RA's murder charges (resulting murder during the commission of at least one other felony act) might mean that the evidence LE included in that PCA was not necessarily directly pertaining to the murders themselves, but the "other" crime. He's not just some periphery player, though. They have since said RA was the man on the bridge and in both sketches, so there doesn't seem to be any question that they are accusing him of being on location that day. I'm just curious what evidence they could have to show RA was there committing the "other" crime.

Well he put himself in the area that day per media reports. Notice we weren’t told where exactly or what time?

 

[TL4S]

Well he put himself in the area that day per media reports. Notice we weren’t told where exactly or what time?

That certainly could be a factor. I think there has to be more, though, to accuse RA of being the one who:

(2) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit arson, burglary, child molesting, consumer product tampering, criminal deviate conduct (under IC 35-42-4-2 before its repeal [this involves deviate sexual conduct]), kidnapping, rape, robbery, human trafficking, promotion of human labor trafficking, promotion of human sexual trafficking, promotion of child sexual trafficking, promotion of sexual trafficking of a younger child, child sexual trafficking, or carjacking (before its repeal).

It's just my opinion, but we have always known that L's phone, presumably sitting in one position, pinged off multiple towers the night of Feb. 13th, simply because of the way cell signals work when within range of more than one tower. RL's phone could be placed in the vicinity, at best, in the PCA to search his home. Even if RA had his phone on him that day, how likely was LE able to prove he was on the bridge, walking towards the girls, engaging them at 2:13pm?

That said, if RA was dumb enough to lie about when he was on the bridge, but had made a phone call, sent a message, or otherwise left a specific digital footprint around the time of the murders, from the area of the crime scene, then LE might have something to work with. JMO.

 

[Snow_In _June]

Libby's phone has always bothered me! My reasons for it bothering me are as follows!

1. Dad rings at @3:11 pm no answer
2. He rings again no anwer

If Libby's phone was on silent BG wouldn't have heard it.
If it was not on silent and ringing out loud BG would have left it.

Can you imagine what BG would have done if hearing a mobile phone ring out loud and seeing the word Dad light up on the screen? A sharp quick exit is my best guess.

This leads me back to planned or unplanned and I freely admit I keep changing my mind
Today I am in the unplanned mode, BG wasn't expecting DG to call his daughter and was probably in turmoil about taking the phone or leaving it. He left it because he is a bit tech-savvy and knew it would be pinging,

I will probably change my mind again tomorrow.

Be Kind to each other and respect each other's opinions.

SIJ

 

[FromGermany1]

^this this this x 1000 agree agree agree

He's a judge that's what he signed up for its a very well paid, HIGHLy prestigious, politically powerful position, he likely had to be elected to. What would make any other judge any safer (has there been any confirmation of any real danger none that I've seen). @Alethea is 100% right this guy isn't scared of the public or YouTubers or whatever he was scared of being exposed for not being able to do his job. I think the recusal was accepted with out much fan fare b/c it was widely know he was not up to it and the state wants a competent judge for such a big case to not look like fools and to protect a conviction. MS reported that multiple sources in the Indiana legal community had contacted them with concerns about Judge Denier and anecdotes showing him not to be up to this type of thing even before he publicly went full toddler and threw all his toys out of his pram and quit. (see MS November 4th 2022 episode).

What, if one verrry explosive name in the PCA scared him "to death" and he immediately threw the towel?? Something like dangerous bias on his side??

 

[mrjitty]

It has been a trend in high profile cases to seal PCAs. Coming from the perspective of a defense lawyer I don’t think it’s bad for a limited amount of time to allow the defendant to hire counsel and be prepared to respond to the allegations. I’d rather read it myself than see it sensationalized in the New York Post before my client even formally hires me. But the public is so used to open courts now that any even temporary sealing is pushed back against. I think it’s good even if I don’t agree in every case because the state should have to justify everything it does when it comes to enforcing the law against citizens.

Thanks for this insight

I tend to agree that it seems a good idea in these preliminary phases.

 

[photographer4]

Libby's phone has always bothered me! My reasons for it bothering me are as follows!

1. Dad rings at @3:11 pm no answer
2. He rings again no anwer

If Libby's phone was on silent BG wouldn't have heard it.
If it was not on silent and ringing out loud BG would have left it.

Can you imagine what BG would have done if hearing a mobile phone ring out loud and seeing the word Dad light up on the screen? A sharp quick exit is my best guess.

This leads me back to planned or unplanned and I freely admit I keep changing my mind
Today I am in the unplanned mode, BG wasn't expecting DG to call his daughter and was probably in turmoil about taking the phone or leaving it. He left it because he is a bit tech-savvy and knew it would be pinging,

I will probably change my mind again tomorrow.

Be Kind to each other and respect each other's opinions.

SIJ

I wonder if she tossed the phone before her dad started trying to reach her - perhaps of her own volition, or perhaps at someone's orders?

 

[iamnotagolem]

Libby's phone has always bothered me! My reasons for it bothering me are as follows!

1. Dad rings at @3:11 pm no answer
2. He rings again no anwer

If Libby's phone was on silent BG wouldn't have heard it.
If it was not on silent and ringing out loud BG would have left it.

Can you imagine what BG would have done if hearing a mobile phone ring out loud and seeing the word Dad light up on the screen? A sharp quick exit is my best guess.

This leads me back to planned or unplanned and I freely admit I keep changing my mind
Today I am in the unplanned mode, BG wasn't expecting DG to call his daughter and was probably in turmoil about taking the phone or leaving it. He left it because he is a bit tech-savvy and knew it would be pinging,

I will probably change my mind again tomorrow.

Be Kind to each other and respect each other's opinions.

SIJ

My bet is the ringer was off. Most people under 60 don’t have their ringer on. IME MOO