UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

[Becci]

I wonder whether Dr Jayaram had read the literature before his police interview.
As if he never noted the skin discoloration at the time.

 

[Tortoise]

Dr Jayaram:
“I had never seen anything like it before but my focus at the time was on ABC, airway, breathing, circulation.”

The doctor said: “As I stated at the time I didn’t appreciate the clinical significance of this whatsoever. Over time, having seen it on further occasions and in retrospect, absolutely.”

When suggested to him by Mr Myers that he had not actually seen such discolouration, Dr Jayaram said: “As a paediatrician of 30 years and a doctor of 32 years, if my character was such that I would make things up I would hope, friends, colleagues, doctors, nurses, parents, families, would have picked up on this before now.” [...]

"Dr Jayaram said: “I would say it has not… I remember reading this paper for the very first time and feeling really quite cold and worried. It is a matter of regret for me I didn’t mention it to the coroner at the time.”

Asked again by Mr Myers, whether his description of skin discolouration had been influenced by the research paper, the doctor said: No, absolutely, categorically not.”

Consultant tells trial skin marks ‘didn’t fit with anything he’d seen’


Why would the doctor have been researching something he hadn't seen?


Why would the defendant tell police others had noticed it?

"When interviewed by police regarding the circumstances over Child A's death, Letby said she had given fluids to Child A at the time of the change of shifts.
She said within "maybe" five minutes, Child A developed 'almost a rash appearance, like a blotchy red marks on the skin'.
She said she had wondered whether the bag of fluid "was not what we thought it was".
In an interview in June 2019, Letby said she had asked for all fluids to be kept from the bag at the end to be checked, but the prosecution said there was was no record of her having made such a request.
It was suggested by police that Letby had administered an air embolus. She replied it would have been very hard to push air through the line."

Recap: Prosecution opens trial of Lucy Letby accused of Countess of Chester Hospital baby murders


From - Agreed Summary of Lucy Letby's Police Interview - re Child A:

"She was asked if anyone had seen the mottling. Letby replies: "Yes."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Wednesday, October 26

 

[Sundial]

The thing I noticed with Dr Jayaram too which I found interesting in this case;

I looked back recently where he first became a “reality tv” presenter, the earliest I could find was the documentary he was hosting/on called (ironically) “Born naughty” in May 2015 on channel 4.

Then, in June 2015, is the first alleged case with baby A.

In August 2015 is the report of the fundraising LL was participating in for the new unit:

https://www.coch.nhs.uk/media/121105/6th-august-2015.pdf

I can’t recall whether this has been previously discussed and whether it is completely irrelevant by pure coincidence, I just find it a little strange how the first case with baby A comes shortly after Dr.R show first airs, and of course by August that same year is then the fundraising report. Quite a lot of publicity IMO.

Comparing this alongside text comments with colleagues and the police interview, LL is involved with babies she was not designated to in quite an odd way. To me JMO she seems irritated/frustrated “perhaps I was more experienced” (from the police report she gave). Projection of importance, more superior, the hero, the witness statement given by one of the mums “trust me I’m a nurse”. IMO she appears to be on a bit of a pedestal or at least seeking it, it’s very strange.

 

[Sundial]

@Tortoise This I find an interesting too;

“It was suggested by police that Letby had administered an air embolus. She replied it would have been very hard to push air through the line."

To me, IMO when it was suggested she had admintered an air embolus; her reply is a bit of a strange thing to say. If someone was being accused of anything that puts another person at harm- specifically what they are alleging, I would have thought something along the lines of “absolutely not!” would be the reply. Her response is quite a strange thing to say. It doesn’t matter how hard it would be, or even possible,.. surely if you’re being accused of all these awful cases (and if not guilty) your reply would reflect that. It just sounds like a very obnoxious thing to say.

 

[Tortoise]

@Tortoise This I find an interesting too;

“It was suggested by police that Letby had administered an air embolus. She replied it would have been very hard to push air through the line."

To me, IMO when it was suggested she had admintered an air embolus; her reply is a bit of a strange thing to say. If someone was being accused of anything that puts another person at harm- specifically what they are alleging, I would have thought something along the lines of “absolutely not!” would be the reply. Her response is quite a strange thing to say. It doesn’t matter how hard it would be, or even possible,.. surely if you’re being accused of all these awful cases (and if not guilty) your reply would reflect that. It just sounds like a very obnoxious thing to say.

Yes, I agree.

She seems to have some knowledge there of what she's saying, and it's nothing close to a denial.

 

[Sundial]

Yes, I agree.

Friends reports that we do know about, suggested she was “awkward and geeky”. Photos that have been published thus far appear somewhat contradictory. I don’t know what awkward or geeky personalities demonstrate that of someone swinging round a pole/pole dancing or drinking large chugs of alcohol.

The messages between colleagues also don’t reflect someone as awkward either, awkward people don’t generally tend to be obnoxious with remarks of “trust me I’m a nurse”, telling her colleague off asking for help or even the response she gave to the police. It seems quite the opposite, quite arrogant if challenged IMO almost as if she is most experienced, better and bigger. The nurse who wanted to attend to the baby to which LL insisted she would deal with it.

Awkward peoples generally don’t keep going against their superior either, several times she asked to go back to her own babies. Other comments where she was upset she claimed something like, “I know how I feel and people should respect that” She actually appears quite arrogant at times in retrospect IMO

 

[BabaVanga]

@Tortoise This I find an interesting too;

She replied it would have been very hard to push air through the line."

To me, IMO when it was suggested she had admintered an air embolus; her reply is a bit of a strange thing to say. If someone was being accused of anything that puts another person at harm- specifically what they are alleging, I would have thought something along the lines of “absolutely not!” would be the reply. Her response is quite a strange thing to say. It doesn’t matter how hard it would be, or even possible,.. surely if you’re being accused of all these awful cases (and if not guilty) your reply would reflect that. It just sounds like a very obnoxious thing to say.

She’s gaslighting. Pretending she imagines it would be hard to do when she knows exactly what it feels like because she’s done it repeatedly IMO

 

[Dotta]

@Tortoise This I find an interesting too;

“It was suggested by police that Letby had administered an air embolus. She replied it would have been very hard to push air through the line."

To me, IMO when it was suggested she had admintered an air embolus; her reply is a bit of a strange thing to say. If someone was being accused of anything that puts another person at harm- specifically what they are alleging, I would have thought something along the lines of “absolutely not!” would be the reply. Her response is quite a strange thing to say. It doesn’t matter how hard it would be, or even possible,.. surely if you’re being accused of all these awful cases (and if not guilty) your reply would reflect that. It just sounds like a very obnoxious thing to say.

Playing smug/smart *advertiser censored** with Police.
Narcissism is peeking.

Moo

 

[Sundial]

Yes, I agree.

She seems to have some knowledge there of what she's saying, and it's nothing close to a denial.

It strikes me almost as if she’s mocking them IMO. I get the impression that rather give a definite “no I did not” reply, it appears almost mockery because the police don’t know her job etc; instead it’s this really obnoxious answer to something that is quite frankly so serious and harrowing..Yet she’s really blatantly arrogant in the reply, from a nurse, I find this rather extraordinary.

 

[Dotta]

Friends reports that we do know about, suggested she was “awkward and geeky”. Photos that have been published thus far appear somewhat contradictory. I don’t know what awkward or geeky personalities demonstrate that of someone swinging round a pole/pole dancing or drinking large chugs of alcohol.

The messages between colleagues also don’t reflect someone as awkward either, awkward people don’t generally tend to be obnoxious with remarks of “trust me I’m a nurse”, telling her colleague off asking for help or even the response she gave to the police. It seems quite the opposite, quite arrogant if challenged IMO almost as if she is most experienced, better and bigger. The nurse who wanted to attend to the baby to which LL insisted she would deal with it.

Awkward peoples generally don’t keep going against their superior either, several times she asked to go back to her own babies. Other comments where she was upset she claimed something like, “I know how I feel and people should respect that” She actually appears quite arrogant at times in retrospect IMO

Awkward might mean not to connect well with people.

Moo

 

[squish]

@Tortoise This I find an interesting too;

“It was suggested by police that Letby had administered an air embolus. She replied it would have been very hard to push air through the line."

To me, IMO when it was suggested she had admintered an air embolus; her reply is a bit of a strange thing to say. If someone was being accused of anything that puts another person at harm- specifically what they are alleging, I would have thought something along the lines of “absolutely not!” would be the reply. Her response is quite a strange thing to say. It doesn’t matter how hard it would be, or even possible,.. surely if you’re being accused of all these awful cases (and if not guilty) your reply would reflect that. It just sounds like a very obnoxious thing to say.

I agree.

Very strange reaction to me, as someone interested in statement analysis. The priority should be to give a strong denial. In this excerpt, she didn’t give a denial at all.

How would she know it’s hard to push in an air embolus? Has she already put some thought into it?

It’s like, by saying this, she’s skipped a denial, and is already into the next stage of explaining why she “couldn’t” have done it. Except, for a normal person, the reason you couldn’t have injected an air embolus into a baby is because you wouldn’t harm a baby. Not that doing so takes too much effort.

Odd.

 

[Sundial]

Playing smug/smart *advertiser censored** with Police.
Narcissism is peeking.

Moo

That’s exactly it. Smugness in her answer is really unprofessional given the nature of her job and the devastating and truly harrowing circumstances. I don’t know why any person (if they are innocent) would use this kind of obnoxious kind of response particularly when facing time in prison. It’s so bizarre.

 

[ShireChe]

This must be so hard for the jury with the jumping back and to between cases. I understand it will be to do with expert availability etc and they will have the info in their packs, but it must be so hard to keep abreast of everything

 

[Sundial]

Awkward might mean not to connect well with people.

Moo

Perhaps, interesting point.
On one hand she seems quite capable of connecting with people, but we can also dispute this by saying, actually.. she may across across as blunt/uncaring.

Equally though, I feel IMO some of her replies have actually been quite vindictive. She appears as though she doesn’t like to be challenged/questioned. Pedestal theory IMO

 

[Dotta]

Perhaps, interesting point.
On one hand she seems quite capable of connecting with people, but we can also dispute this by saying, actually.. she may across across as blunt/uncaring.

Equally though, I feel IMO some of her replies have actually been quite vindictive. She appears as though she doesn’t like to be challenged/questioned. Pedestal theory IMO

Well, her parents were reported to adore her
I guess, as an only child and presumably a dutiful, hardworking and ambitious daughter she was absolutely on pedestal at home.

Moo

 

[Sundial]

Well, her parents were reported to adore her
I guess, as an only child and presumably a dutiful, hardworking and ambitious daughter she was absolutely on pedestal at home.

Moo

It is the same impression I have too IMOO, compared along with her responses and police reports, potentially she may have believed her greatness to be fact and how dare anyone question her. JMO

 

[crystalline]

It is the same impression I have too IMOO, compared along with her responses and police reports, potentially she may have believed her greatness to be fact and how dare anyone question her. JMO

Hmm, this could also tie in with why she wasn't happy with a nurse for requesting help and why she wasn't doing as instructed when she was asked to return back to her own unit by the nurse in charge that one time. Interesting thoughts.

 

[Dotta]

Hmm, this could also tie in with why she wasn't happy with a nurse for requesting help and why she wasn't doing as instructed when she was asked to return back to her own unit by the nurse in charge that one time. Interesting thoughts.

Well, we know nothing about her - we can only guess.

But, if guilty, I still am convinced of something undiagnosed and thus not treated eating at her.

If she is found guilty, all kinds of mental health specialists will rack their brains about this issue.

But I think Im starting to sound like a broken record haha

Moo

 

[Dcflag]

At first my assumption was that the babies were randomly targeted. But seeing some of Tortoises timelines and seeing the rapid succession of the deaths of the first three babies was shocking. It’s within weeks, when you consider how many deaths they expect in a year, it’s alarming.

I forget who it was (perhaps tortoise again) who pointed out the time gaps between attempts on the same babies, some of which transferred out of the hospital and back again, really do seem to suggest targeted victims opposed to opportunistic or random.

I’m not sure that really says much in the grand scheme of things. It could be down to once an attempt has been made, closure dictates to retry until the baby has passed, almost like when people can’t just stop reading a book halfway or not finish a conversation to completion. I also think.. in terms of motives, it’s important to remember someone who is deliberately killing babies, is illogical. There’s not likely to be an explainable method to the madness. We may never know the reason.

 

[Tortoise]

This is really interesting, also from the agreed facts of the 2018 police interview re Baby A

"Letby said she could not recall Child A's resuscitation, but recalled Dr Jayaram had entered the room."


I think it shows quite starkly where her awareness was at the time.