UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #7

[ColourPurple]

A glass of wine? I don't think that's likely.

Think you may have misunderstood my post. I wasn't linking alcohol to the alleged murders. Just saying that could be why she doesn't appear geeky and awkward in the pics where she's posing with a pole dancing pole.

 

[notsure]

Think you may have misunderstood my post. I wasn't linking alcohol to the alleged murders. Just saying that could be why she doesn't appear geeky and awkward in the pics where she's posing with a pole dancing pole.

No, I understood.

 

[Dotta]

Does the note (and probably other notes) expressing emotions/feelings indicate that she was attending some kind of therapy?

Also, the texts practically begging to be let into room 1 are really disturbing to me.

Her friend answered politely and in a caring way but got the answer about "not much of team spirit".

Very worrying.
Absolutely not normal IMO.

Moo

 

[ColourPurple]

No, I understood.

Ok, well if you don't think that alcohol can give people confidence fair enough. We'll agree to disagree.

 

[notsure]

Again, she was 25 yrs old, with a job she loved, friends, a social life, a loving and supportive relationship with her parents. What would/could she have to be bitter and resentful about at that age that would have turned her into this monster that she's being portrayed as?

Were she in her late 40s/50s with a life of disappointment behind her - eg. a career that never went anywhere, a history of failed relationships - then I could maybe get on board the idea that a switch flicked and the disappointment turned into bitterness and then into something psychotic towards those who had what she didn't have, but not at 25 with her life as it was and her whole life ahead of her.

Absolutely! Certainly in the UK in the 21st century, young women with a career are not looking to settle down and have a family in their mid-20s.

 

[ColourPurple]

Does the note (and probably other notes) expressing emotions/feelings indicate that she was attending some kind of therapy?

Also, the texts practically begging to be let into room 1 are really disturbing to me.

Her friend answered politely and in a caring way but got the answer about "not much of team spirit".

Very worrying.
Absolutely not normal IMO.

Moo

Could you just be the way she deals with things rather than an indication of therapy.

There was definitely a strong need to be back in room 1, and the apparent frustration when people disagreed.

 

[Sundial]

Very much agree it’s an odd response and potentially revealing but I don’t read narcissism (from this snippet). But perhaps the note and her evident distress has coloured things for me.

It isn’t necessarily this alone though. For me it’s this plus other evidence from other witnesses and medical evidence thus far.

Personally, I did initially mis-read the note at the start because there were so many other scrawlings on it I initially thought it said “they say I did it on purpose because I can’t look after them properly”. After re-reading (many times) this isn’t what it says; I hope they will return to that in due course but the evidence so far to me isn’t looking to favourable. I feel deeply saddened by the case of baby E for one, the mothers testimony and how anyone could just stand there (even if innocent), and not even clean the poor little tots face.

 

[notsure]

Does the note (and probably other notes) expressing emotions/feelings indicate that she was attending some kind of therapy?

Also, the texts practically begging to be let into room 1 are really disturbing to me.

Her friend answered politely and in a caring way but got the answer about "not much of team spirit".

Very worrying.
Absolutely not normal IMO.

Moo

Or, just to put an alternative point of view, maybe she thought she was more able to give support than the others on duty (bearing in mind that the unit was struggling at the time).

 

[Dotta]

Or, just to put an alternative point of view, maybe she thought she was more able to give support than the others on duty (bearing in mind that the unit was struggling at the time).

Hmm...
Sure, but what were the results of her "giving support"?
More deaths?
(Allegedly)

God, please free me of such "supporters", and as for my enemies I can deal with them myself.

Moo

 

[Sundial]

Again, she was 25 yrs old, with a job she loved, friends, a social life, a loving and supportive relationship with her parents. What would/could she have to be bitter and resentful about at that age that would have turned her into this monster that she's being portrayed as?

Were she in her late 40s/50s with a life of disappointment behind her - eg. a career that never went anywhere, a history of failed relationships - then I could maybe get on board the idea that a switch flicked and the disappointment turned into bitterness and then into something psychotic towards those who had what she didn't have, but not at 25 with her life as it was and her whole life ahead of her.

This is a fair and valid point.

On the other hand I have worked with people in a similar age bracket from health related roles where one would think they had their whole life ahead of them, a good job etc and nothing to be bitter about. However everyone’s trajectory is different irrespective of age of employment. On the surface some of those I have worked with have been extremely pleasant, successful individuals. But in reality, scratch the surface and we couldn’t be further from the truth, some have been absolutely in the wrong job, bitter, resentful and outright unprofessional.

 

[Sundial]

Absolutely! Certainly in the UK in the 21st century, young women with a career are not looking to settle down and have a family in their mid-20s.

I think this would depend too; whilst there has been an increase in women waiting to settle down until they are in their 30s, I have also seen young mid-20s women who display resentment to their female counterparts with children/families. Often if there are a higher number of people (women) in the workplace who have children, their colleagues with children will also be able to relate to them, they have that common ground. Topics such as childcare, schools, kids parties etc.

I suppose if you wanted a child (which we don’t know here either way), and couldn’t or didn’t have the things most people in your workplace have (eg children); it does create a bit of a divide, hostility, resentment, working more than others/always the one covering shifts etc or excluded because you don’t fit into the same circle as some of your peers. JMO

 

[Eloise]

Friends reports that we do know about, suggested she was “awkward and geeky”. Photos that have been published thus far appear somewhat contradictory. I don’t know what awkward or geeky personalities demonstrate that of someone swinging round a pole/pole dancing or drinking large chugs of alcohol.

The messages between colleagues also don’t reflect someone as awkward either, awkward people don’t generally tend to be obnoxious with remarks of “trust me I’m a nurse”, telling her colleague off asking for help or even the response she gave to the police. It seems quite the opposite, quite arrogant if challenged IMO almost as if she is most experienced, better and bigger. The nurse who wanted to attend to the baby to which LL insisted she would deal with it.

Awkward peoples generally don’t keep going against their superior either, several times she asked to go back to her own babies. Other comments where she was upset she claimed something like, “I know how I feel and people should respect that” She actually appears quite arrogant at times in retrospect IMO

Hmm. I see where you're going with this train of thought, but respectfully disagree. I think awkward and geeky people can enjoy alcohol. They often do. I think awkward and geeky people can be awkward and geeky, but also not shy or socially avoidant. Awkward and geeky isn't always coexistent with introversion. And even then, introverted people can enjoy crazy nights out occasionally.
I think there's really not much to be gleaned from the photos shared by the media so far.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Perhaps, interesting point.
On one hand she seems quite capable of connecting with people, but we can also dispute this by saying, actually.. she may across across as blunt/uncaring.

Equally though, I feel IMO some of her replies have actually been quite vindictive. She appears as though she doesn’t like to be challenged/questioned. Pedestal theory IMO

I'm totally on the fence in this case, in fact more leaning / hoping for not guilty thus far -but- I do see her text messages reveal she is coercive, manipulative, controlling, and can flare to irritability because she's trying to control what the other person says and seeking the outcome she wants from the outset.

However, that's on a low level and nothing different than a huge percent of the average 'normie' population. In my observation *most* people do not communicate clearly, directly, and openly. JMO MOO.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Hmm. I see where you're going with this train of thought, but respectfully disagree. I think awkward and geeky people can enjoy alcohol. They often do. I think awkward and geeky people can be awkward and geeky, but also not shy or socially avoidant. Awkward and geeky isn't always coexistent with introversion. And even then, introverted people can enjoy crazy nights out occasionally.
I think there's really not much to be gleaned from the photos shared by the media so far.

In general, socially awkward, shy, lonely, different, and introverted people are at huge risk of not only substance misuse but serious addiction. That's an addiction 'truism'. However, not saying that LL is any of those things.

 

[Tortoise]

Or, just to put an alternative point of view, maybe she thought she was more able to give support than the others on duty (bearing in mind that the unit was struggling at the time).

"Earlier today, the court heard that a senior nurse on duty with [Letby] had to tell her repeatedly to come out of a room Baby C's parents were spending their last moments with their son after she'd been involved in failed attempts to revive him.

The shift leader at the Countess of Chester Hospital said she wanted Letby, 32, to concentrate on caring for a baby boy she considered the most poorly newborn on the neonatal unit that night.

Instead, the woman now on trial for murdering seven babies and attempting to murder a further ten kept going into the family room occupied by the parents of Baby C." [...]

"The father said that a nurse he thought may have been Letby came in with a ventilated basket, allegedly telling the couple: 'You've said your goodbyes. Do you want me to put him in here?'

'This comment shocked us,' he recalled in a written statement. 'My wife said: ''He's not dead yet''."

Lucy Letby: 'Baby killed by nurse showed signs of life for FIVE HOURS'

LL: "I just keep thinking about Monday. Feel like I need to be in 1 to overcome it, but [nurse] said no x"
LL: “Well that’s how I feel. I don’t expect people to understand but I know how I feel and how I have dealt with it before. I voiced that so can’t do any more, but people should respect that.”



It doesn't sound like she was thinking about supporting others, or even thinking about looking after her own baby in room 3, from her texts.

IMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I was thinking that If she is guilty, was she causing these collapses to try and get a particular medic to come to the unit. I know doctors flit around the hospital on a priority basis but did she perhaps have a crush maybe, wanted to be in their presence so causes catastrophe knowing they would then attend and be around for some time and not just a quick visit to do a prescription or a quick review? Particularly in the context of the Facebook messaging also. Very far fetched I know but just crossed my mind.

This idea reminds me of the 'psychopath test' question. Not in any way suggesting LL is either guilty or a psychopath.

The Wisdom of Psychopaths by Kevin Dutton – review

A convincing study shows that business leaders and serial killers share a mindset, writes Tim Adams

www.theguardian.com

 

[Sundial]

I'm totally on the fence in this case, in fact more leaning / hoping for not guilty thus far -but- I do see her text messages reveal she is coercive, manipulative, controlling, and can flare to irritability because she's trying to control what the other person says and seeking the outcome she wants from the outset.

However, that's on a low level and nothing different than a huge percent of the average 'normie' population. In my observation *most* people do not communicate clearly, directly, and openly. JMO MOO.

In truth I’d been on the fence at the start, mostly because the case and the nature of them combined is so wild and “out there” I just couldn’t envisage something so sad and on the scale it has been presented. I did also initially believe she was a scapegoat and in part is one of the reasons why I have followed the trial.

I’ve found from my previous thoughts though, that as the case has progressed so far and whilst I’d still hope to believe she is innocent, I just feel doubtful and I can’t for the life of me fathom why a healthcare professional would stand by and do nothing to try and help a tiny defenceless little baby. It has become very difficult for me to dismiss the numerous witness statements and medical evidence IMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

In truth I’d been on the fence at the start, mostly because the case and the nature of them combined is so wild and “out there” I just couldn’t envisage something so sad and on the scale it has been presented. I did also initially believe she was a scapegoat and in part is one of the reasons why I have followed the trial.

I’ve found from my previous thoughts though, that as the case has progressed so far and whilst I’d still hope to believe she is innocent, I just feel doubtful and I can’t for the life of me fathom why a healthcare professional would stand by and do nothing to try and help a tiny defenceless little baby. It has become very difficult for me to dismiss the numerous witness statements and medical evidence IMO

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this. Do you think it may be possible that if LL is at fault in these awful situations, perhaps she may have been a bit 'away with the fairies', not present, clumsy, and doing a really awful job? Some of what is being said about her lack of sensitivity makes me think of someone I once knew who had quite a serious but hidden mental health problem and her work was really really shoddy because she was utterly disengaged from reality. Superficially she could 'pass', it was only when you examined what she'd been doing it became clear something pretty deranged was going on. Just my speculation. MOO

 

[Blondiexoxo]

I can’t help wondering if colleagues had noticed suspicious events surrounding LL previously to babies A-Q. If there were any strange collapses or deaths previous to baby A that aren’t listed in the charges, I imagine colleagues would be unable to mention those instances when giving evidence IMO, because she’s only charged with babies starting with A to Q.

I just think some of the text messages have an underlying suspicious feel to them, like the colleague saying she also doesn’t think it’s a good idea for LL to go back in room 1, and the reply to the message where LL says ‘just forget I said anything’ the colleague says ‘I won’t forget’. To me that sounds like something you may say if you were starting to add up doubts about a person. I suppose we won’t know because the case and evidence we will hear essentially starts in the June of 2015, so anything prior to that could well have been suspicious but lacked evidence to charge.

Something to think about anyway… MOO of course.

 

[notsure]

"Earlier today, the court heard that a senior nurse on duty with [Letby] had to tell her repeatedly to come out of a room Baby C's parents were spending their last moments with their son after she'd been involved in failed attempts to revive him.

The shift leader at the Countess of Chester Hospital said she wanted Letby, 32, to concentrate on caring for a baby boy she considered the most poorly newborn on the neonatal unit that night.

Instead, the woman now on trial for murdering seven babies and attempting to murder a further ten kept going into the family room occupied by the parents of Baby C." [...]

"The father said that a nurse he thought may have been Letby came in with a ventilated basket, allegedly telling the couple: 'You've said your goodbyes. Do you want me to put him in here?'

'This comment shocked us,' he recalled in a written statement. 'My wife said: ''He's not dead yet''."

Lucy Letby: 'Baby killed by nurse showed signs of life for FIVE HOURS'

LL: "I just keep thinking about Monday. Feel like I need to be in 1 to overcome it, but [nurse] said no x"
LL: “Well that’s how I feel. I don’t expect people to understand but I know how I feel and how I have dealt with it before. I voiced that so can’t do any more, but people should respect that.”



It doesn't sound like she was thinking about supporting others, or even thinking about looking after her own baby in room 3, from her texts.

IMO

It was just a suggestion.

Then there's this: "The father said that a nurse he thought may have been Letby came in..." So, not definitely LL.