Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #161

[getthefax]

Agreed

It's a naive theory that sounds like a good story until you think about it for more than one second

Especially it is highly unlikely that these 3 guys would be working together on such a plot in the first place - that is not how these kinds of abductions go down.

Indeed the prosecution case is much more typical. The accused had a hunting ground where potential victims could easily be found - and snatched them away to a more secluded area

Unfortunately that happens all the time.

EBM for clarity/typo

I agree with your larger point that there’s no way these three were working together.
My current thinking is that there is, however, some sort of link between Libby’s interaction with the Ashots account, the girls being on the bridge that day at that time, and RA happening to be on the bridge on that at exactly the same time, armed and ready to kill.

MOO, but I’m thinking that there’s a pattern of what I am here calling diffusion of responsibility. Meaning, if multiple people have access to the Ashots account, is it possible RA could also have access to/a password for that account, and know those girls would be out in that secluded area that day? Sharing the access/password seems to me to have so far been a wildly successful way for multiple criminals to access CSAM and create enough doubt about who actually procured/viewed those materials to make it very difficult to prosecute and ensure conviction.

Child predators nowadays are very much connected with one another online, and they learn from each other on the Internet how to prey. Who is to say they aren’t using that info to find and hunt victims? I have a feeling that the Klines and RA weren’t necessarily working together, but that RA may have had access to the Ashots account or in some way been privy to information about where the girls would be based on info he gathered online. Or even lured there by KAK and set up.

The above is MOO/my speculation only. That said, given all the details of this case (including the timing of the movement of KAK, the Wabash River search, and RA’s arrest occurring within just a couple weeks of each other after nearly 5 years of nothing), it makes more sense to me than “Libby had agreed to meet up with Anthony Shots (aka child predator/CSAM monger KAK) that day, and instead was targeted by child killer RA completely by coincidence.” I think there is middle ground between “complete coincidence” and “working as a team,” and that’s where my thinking is at this time.

Coincidences do happen. All the time. I personally just don’t think this is one of those cases that can be explained quite that simply. It’s my sincerest hope that there is, in fact, additional (damning) evidence that links RA to the crime scene more effectively than the bullet from his gun and his presence on the bridge, & it’s my hunch they do and we just don’t know what all it is at this time.

 

[Trebor5591]

< I think RA will have a difficult time explaining how a bullet from his gun was found near the girls. I'd also venture to guess that the bullet is just one of many pieces of incriminating evidence that the prosecution has, including the identity of the other "actors" (suspects). >

All this is just my opinion, and the more I think about it, the more uncomfortable I am with the unfired bullet found at the murder scene with tool marks indicating it had been ejected from RAs pistol.

I shoot myself and have a good working knowledge of guns. Bullets stay secure inside a pistol, either in a magazine or secure in the chamber, ready to fire. There is no need nor any reason for a person with a pistol and a bullet already chambered to rack another round into the chamber, thereby ejecting the unspent round already in the chamber, onto the ground. It makes no sense. When I have a round in the chamber of my pistol, I am always aware of its presence.

I have heard others say that maybe he racked a new round into the chamber to scare the girls, but honestly that is television fiction at best and nobody proficient with shooting is going to do make such an amateur move. The presence of a pistol pointed at someone is scary enough and there is no need to rack a round into the chamber in an attempt to scare someone further-it's just not going to happen.

Another possibility is that he just happened to have an ejected bullet in his jacket pocket that somehow fell out during his struggle with the girls--this is slightly more believable but again it stretches reasonable belief.

The remaining possibility that I don't really like mentioning but needs to be considered is that someone had obtained one of RAs bullets and planted it at the murder scene. My opinion only.

I just hope and pray LE has better evidence than has been presented. The absolute lack of any history of violence on the part of RA really speaks against him being the one to commit this very bloody double murder. To my understanding, people who commit such horrible murders always have a criminal history of violence, and RA has no criminal record at all to my knowledge.

 

[Ozoner]

That is a very good point but here is what I wonder... His warrant was written in such a way that they thought he had committed the murders early on in their investigation.

With all due respect, I believe that this comment reflects a lack of familiarity with the way that search warrants are written. Nothing in the warrant can be taken to mean that investigators personally believed that RL was the perpetrator of the crime, only that he was one person of interest who needed to be investigated further as part of those investigators' due diligence.

Search warrants are not meant to be an impartial summary of the facts. They are ALWAYS slanted in such a way as to obtain a signature from a judge—full stop. They are not even minimally objective.

If we saw ten different search warrants related to ten different suspects in this case, each warrant would make each of those suspects appear equally guilty.

All of the chatter on YouTube, Reddit, etc. about Ron Logan's guilt is coming from inexperienced people with weak critical thinking skills—people who lack the ability to read a warrant for what it is. What scares the bejesus out of me is that most of those people are allowed to serve on juries in our current system.

People like that are the reason why you have clearly guilty people like T. Cullen Davis and Casey Anthony walking free and why you have people with next to no meaningful evidence against them doing life without parole for crimes that they probably didn't commit. Jurors like them will agree with whichever attorney puts on the best dog-and-pony show. In the case of wealthy defendants, that is almost always the defense attorney. In the case of impoverished defendants with public defenders, it is almost always the prosecutor.

 

[Laughing]

@Ozoner, yep, sat on a jury like that once. Yep. Frightening, indeed.

 

[arielilane]

All this is just my opinion, and the more I think about it, the more uncomfortable I am with the unfired bullet found at the murder scene with tool marks indicating it had been ejected from RAs pistol.

I shoot myself and have a good working knowledge of guns. Bullets stay secure inside a pistol, either in a magazine or secure in the chamber, ready to fire. There is no need nor any reason for a person with a pistol and a bullet already chambered to rack another round into the chamber, thereby ejecting the unspent round already in the chamber, onto the ground. It makes no sense. When I have a round in the chamber of my pistol, I am always aware of its presence.

I have heard others say that maybe he racked a new round into the chamber to scare the girls, but honestly that is television fiction at best and nobody proficient with shooting is going to do make such an amateur move. The presence of a pistol pointed at someone is scary enough and there is no need to rack a round into the chamber in an attempt to scare someone further-it's just not going to happen.

Another possibility is that he just happened to have an ejected bullet in his jacket pocket that somehow fell out during his struggle with the girls--this is slightly more believable but again it stretches reasonable belief.

The remaining possibility that I don't really like mentioning but needs to be considered is that someone had obtained one of RAs bullets and planted it at the murder scene. My opinion only.

I just hope and pray LE has better evidence than has been presented. The absolute lack of any history of violence on the part of RA really speaks against him being the one to commit this very bloody double murder. To my understanding, people who commit such horrible murders always have a criminal history of violence, and RA has no criminal record at all to my knowledge.

I’m sure that LE have more evidence than what is documented in the Probable Cause Affidavit.

BBM, do you have a certain person in mind that possibly obtained RA's bullet and planted it at the crime scene? That’s an interesting claim. TIA

I did found the Murder Sheet podcast dated Dec 16 "Conversations with a Firearms Expert and a Professional Investigator" insightful.

MOO

 

[Trebor5591]

BBM, do you have a certain person in mind that possibly obtained RA's bullet and planted it at the crime scene? That’s an interesting claim. TIA

No, just speculation on my part.

His lack of any criminal history as well as his long-time marriage to his high school sweetheart makes me feel he isn't the kind of person to go out and suddenly one day decide to murder two teenage girls--it just doesn't seem right to me. MOO

 

[Boxer]

RA didn't have the stupid long beard at the time of the murders. It was a trim goatee, I think he purposely grew it out after the murders to hide. Or maybe he had a vision of ZZ Top?

Yes. MOO if he went into rehab changes in behavior and appearance expected.

 

[TTF14]

Yes. Went into rehab apparently. So changes in behavior and appearance expected.

I wonder where this story started. I don't believe it's been confirmed as fact, has it?

 

[Boxer]

.

I wonder where this story started. I don't believe it's been confirmed as fact, has it?

You are right.
Information seems gone.
Maybe delete my quoted text. So it doesn’t go forward.
I changed my post above to an “in my opinion, if.”

 

[Gemmie]

With all due respect, I believe that this comment reflects a lack of familiarity with the way that search warrants are written. Nothing in the warrant can be taken to mean that investigators personally believed that RL was the perpetrator of the crime, only that he was one person of interest who needed to be investigated further as part of those investigators' due diligence.

Search warrants are not meant to be an impartial summary of the facts. They are ALWAYS slanted in such a way as to obtain a signature from a judge—full stop. They are not even minimally objective.

If we saw ten different search warrants related to ten different suspects in this case, each warrant would make each of those suspects appear equally guilty.

All of the chatter on YouTube, Reddit, etc. about Ron Logan's guilt is coming from inexperienced people with weak critical thinking skills—people who lack the ability to read a warrant for what it is. What scares the bejesus out of me is that most of those people are allowed to serve on juries in our current system.

People like that are the reason why you have clearly guilty people like T. Cullen Davis and Casey Anthony walking free and why you have people with next to no meaningful evidence against them doing life without parole for crimes that they probably didn't commit. Jurors like them will agree with whichever attorney puts on the best dog-and-pony show. In the case of wealthy defendants, that is almost always the defense attorney. In the case of impoverished defendants with public defenders, it is almost always the prosecutor.

The important part of my post wasn't quoted in your post. You only quoted this:

Gemmie said:
That is a very good point but here is what I wonder... His warrant was written in such a way that they thought he had committed the murders early on in their investigation.

But left out was my next sentence, which the point I was trying to get across, which was... The facts of the CS don't change though.

So to me, it doesn't matter whose name was on that warrant where they were discussing anything related to the CS or manner of death. That doesn't change no matter whose name is on the warrant. They were looking for guns (because they found the unspent casing), hair (because they found hair), and knives because:


I apologize if I didn't make that point clearer in my original post.

 

[Salah11]

All this is just my opinion, and the more I think about it, the more uncomfortable I am with the unfired bullet found at the murder scene with tool marks indicating it had been ejected from RAs pistol.

I shoot myself and have a good working knowledge of guns. Bullets stay secure inside a pistol, either in a magazine or secure in the chamber, ready to fire. There is no need nor any reason for a person with a pistol and a bullet already chambered to rack another round into the chamber, thereby ejecting the unspent round already in the chamber, onto the ground. It makes no sense. When I have a round in the chamber of my pistol, I am always aware of its presence.

I have heard others say that maybe he racked a new round into the chamber to scare the girls, but honestly that is television fiction at best and nobody proficient with shooting is going to do make such an amateur move. The presence of a pistol pointed at someone is scary enough and there is no need to rack a round into the chamber in an attempt to scare someone further-it's just not going to happen.

Another possibility is that he just happened to have an ejected bullet in his jacket pocket that somehow fell out during his struggle with the girls--this is slightly more believable but again it stretches reasonable belief.

The remaining possibility that I don't really like mentioning but needs to be considered is that someone had obtained one of RAs bullets and planted it at the murder scene. My opinion only.

I just hope and pray LE has better evidence than has been presented. The absolute lack of any history of violence on the part of RA really speaks against him being the one to commit this very bloody double murder. To my understanding, people who commit such horrible murders always have a criminal history of violence, and RA has no criminal record at all to my knowledge.

How exactly does RA get framed when he has placed himself out there that day?

 

[HistoryNut]

All this is just my opinion, and the more I think about it, the more uncomfortable I am with the unfired bullet found at the murder scene with tool marks indicating it had been ejected from RAs pistol.

I shoot myself and have a good working knowledge of guns. Bullets stay secure inside a pistol, either in a magazine or secure in the chamber, ready to fire. There is no need nor any reason for a person with a pistol and a bullet already chambered to rack another round into the chamber, thereby ejecting the unspent round already in the chamber, onto the ground. It makes no sense. When I have a round in the chamber of my pistol, I am always aware of its presence.

I have heard others say that maybe he racked a new round into the chamber to scare the girls, but honestly that is television fiction at best and nobody proficient with shooting is going to do make such an amateur move. The presence of a pistol pointed at someone is scary enough and there is no need to rack a round into the chamber in an attempt to scare someone further-it's just not going to happen.

Another possibility is that he just happened to have an ejected bullet in his jacket pocket that somehow fell out during his struggle with the girls--this is slightly more believable but again it stretches reasonable belief.

The remaining possibility that I don't really like mentioning but needs to be considered is that someone had obtained one of RAs bullets and planted it at the murder scene. My opinion only.

I just hope and pray LE has better evidence than has been presented. The absolute lack of any history of violence on the part of RA really speaks against him being the one to commit this very bloody double murder. To my understanding, people who commit such horrible murders always have a criminal history of violence, and RA has no criminal record at all to my knowledge.

You make a good point but he admitted he was near the murder scene at the same time the girls were. Add in several witnesses saw a man who looked like RA that day and he was wearing the same clothing that RA said he had on and he was dressed like BG. Add in the bullet, and I think these are more than mere coincidences. MOO

 

[getthefax]

All this is just my opinion, and the more I think about it, the more uncomfortable I am with the unfired bullet found at the murder scene with tool marks indicating it had been ejected from RAs pistol.

I shoot myself and have a good working knowledge of guns. Bullets stay secure inside a pistol, either in a magazine or secure in the chamber, ready to fire. There is no need nor any reason for a person with a pistol and a bullet already chambered to rack another round into the chamber, thereby ejecting the unspent round already in the chamber, onto the ground. It makes no sense. When I have a round in the chamber of my pistol, I am always aware of its presence.

I have heard others say that maybe he racked a new round into the chamber to scare the girls, but honestly that is television fiction at best and nobody proficient with shooting is going to do make such an amateur move. The presence of a pistol pointed at someone is scary enough and there is no need to rack a round into the chamber in an attempt to scare someone further-it's just not going to happen.

Another possibility is that he just happened to have an ejected bullet in his jacket pocket that somehow fell out during his struggle with the girls--this is slightly more believable but again it stretches reasonable belief.

The remaining possibility that I don't really like mentioning but needs to be considered is that someone had obtained one of RAs bullets and planted it at the murder scene. My opinion only.

I just hope and pray LE has better evidence than has been presented. The absolute lack of any history of violence on the part of RA really speaks against him being the one to commit this very bloody double murder. To my understanding, people who commit such horrible murders always have a criminal history of violence, and RA has no criminal record at all to my knowledge.

I can imagine that the investigators don’t want to disclose more in the PCA than they have to. If they’re hunting others who may be involved, that’s a good reason to keep info hush-hush.

RA placing himself at the scene that day at that time, and indicating that he did not see some others who were there and whom he should have seen if he weren’t at the crime scene, in addition to a bullet that shows ejection markings identical to those produced by his own gun (that he never lent to anyone, according to RA himself), is enough to reasonably assume the bullet got there at the crime scene on the day of the murders when the girls were killed.

The bullet was documented as evidence when the girls were found, not at some point later on—so investigators had that evidence and matched it to RAs gun when they executed the warrant.

 

[Prime8]

His lack of any criminal history as well as his long-time marriage to his high school sweetheart makes me feel he isn't the kind of person to go out and suddenly one day decide to murder two teenage girls--it just doesn't seem right to me. MOO

Unfortunately, the reality of the world is that many people that seem harmless on paper -"lack of any criminal history as well as his long-time marriage to his high school sweetheart" - are not harmless at all. Most will not take their criminal acts beyond the internet, and an even smaller number will get caught.

 

[Salah11]

I can imagine that the investigators don’t want to disclose more in the PCA than they have to. If they’re hunting others who may be involved, that’s a good reason to keep info hush-hush.

RA placing himself at the scene that day at that time, and indicating that he did not see some others who were there and whom he should have seen if he weren’t at the crime scene, in addition to a bullet that shows ejection markings identical to those produced by his own gun (that he never lent to anyone, according to RA himself), is enough to reasonably assume the bullet got there at the crime scene on the day of the murders when the girls were killed.

The bullet was documented as evidence when the girls were found, not at some point later on—so investigators had that evidence and matched it to RAs gun when they executed the warrant.

This doesn’t add up through as for example if they have found RA by phone tracking then they would need to mention that in the search for the property I would of thought?

Look at RL they literally had what they were looking for in the warrent.


The facts are they stumbled across his old statement and it grew from there. There is no KK grassing him up it literally would be in the probable cause imo

 

[Boxer]

All this is just my opinion, and the more I think about it, the more uncomfortable I am with the unfired bullet found at the murder scene with tool marks indicating it had been ejected from RAs pistol.

I shoot myself and have a good working knowledge of guns. Bullets stay secure inside a pistol, either in a magazine or secure in the chamber, ready to fire. There is no need nor any reason for a person with a pistol and a bullet already chambered to rack another round into the chamber, thereby ejecting the unspent round already in the chamber, onto the ground. It makes no sense. When I have a round in the chamber of my pistol, I am always aware of its presence.

I have heard others say that maybe he racked a new round into the chamber to scare the girls, but honestly that is television fiction at best and nobody proficient with shooting is going to do make such an amateur move. The presence of a pistol pointed at someone is scary enough and there is no need to rack a round into the chamber in an attempt to scare someone further-it's just not going to happen.

Another possibility is that he just happened to have an ejected bullet in his jacket pocket that somehow fell out during his struggle with the girls--this is slightly more believable but again it stretches reasonable belief.

The remaining possibility that I don't really like mentioning but needs to be considered is that someone had obtained one of RAs bullets and planted it at the murder scene. My opinion only.

I just hope and pray LE has better evidence than has been presented. The absolute lack of any history of violence on the part of RA really speaks against him being the one to commit this very bloody double murder. To my understanding, people who commit such horrible murders always have a criminal history of violence, and RA has no criminal record at all to my knowledge.

MOO most logical is he either forgot and racked and racked twice or he as an ejected round in his pocket.

MOO Some gun owners are responsible and orderly many are not. They leave guns stuffed in couches, stuff a gun in their pocket any which way, leave a round in the chamber while declaring the gun unloaded, and sometimes forget and rack twice.

 

[Ozoner]

The important part of my post wasn't quoted in your post. You only quoted this:

Gemmie said:
That is a very good point but here is what I wonder... His warrant was written in such a way that they thought he had committed the murders early on in their investigation.

But left out was my next sentence, which the point I was trying to get across, which was... The facts of the CS don't change though.

So to me, it doesn't matter whose name was on that warrant where they were discussing anything related to the CS or manner of death. That doesn't change no matter whose name is on the warrant. They were looking for guns (because they found the unspent casing), hair (because they found hair), and knives because:
View attachment 389516

I apologize if I didn't make that point clearer in my original post.

Point well taken.

 

[Rural_PC]

MOO most logical is he either forgot and racked and racked twice or he as an ejected round in his pocket.

MOO Some gun owners are responsible and orderly many are not. They leave guns stuffed in couches, stuff a gun in their pocket any which way, leave a round in the chamber while declaring the gun unloaded, and sometimes forget and rack twice.

Or used the loaded weapon to threaten them, then he takes the magazine out and clears the chamber before hiking out? Possibly already thinking about ditching the weapon? Pure speculation

 

[Trebor5591]

MOO Some gun owners are responsible and orderly many are not. They leave guns stuffed in couches, stuff a gun in their pocket any which way, leave a round in the chamber while declaring the gun unloaded, and sometimes forget and rack twice.

True!

 

[Salah11]

Does it Matter why the bullet was there?

The fact is it was there and he admitted he had never loaned his gun to anybody. It places him slap bang in the middle of two dead bodies.