ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 38

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IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT CHRIS MCDONOUGH AND THE INTERVIEW ROOM

Nothing that Chris M says is allowed on this forum unless it is backed up by law enforcement.

Chris has personally lied to me. He accused an innocent man of being Brian Laundry. He lied about being removed from the Crow lawsuit. He was removed but then put back in the lawsuit and lost. Chris told me he was removed from the lawsuit and was not sued. He never told me he was added back into the lawsuit and lost. Chris was sued for getting a false confession in the murder of Stephanie Crow.
I could go on but suffice it to say anything he says is not allowed. Even if it is in mainstream media.

Again only if what he said is backed up by an actual law enforcement source.

Here is the documentation on the Crow lawsuit
The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals Ruling from 2010 which overrules Dougie's decision from 2004.

Retired judge slams Crowe case


"A federal trial judge in San Diego dismissed the bulk of the civil rights suit in 2004. But six years later, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals revived the lawsuit, finding that Escondido police violated the civil rights of Crowe and his friends during “hours of grueling, psychologically abusive interrogations.”

The above links come from a great YouTube creator called Scientific Skeptic. If you go to this video there are more links describing the interrogation tools used by Chris and others in the Crow case,

Because Chris mistakenly named the wrong man on my YouTube channel and never told me to take down the false information I made this apology video when I discovered what happened,
Here is the apology video I had to make because of what Chris said on my Livestream.

The glove that Chris found was not there on the day of the Moscow Idaho murders

The MOB Crew has a great video showing the ground the day of the killing where the glove was found later in the month. On that day the glove was not there. Go to @2:35 of this video

I am not suggesting Chris did not legitimately find the glove. Just showing you it has nothing to do with the case. I will be shocked if Chris updates the story about the glove.

For those of you who know me this is an extremely unusual step for me to take. This is how strongly I feel. I was lied to but more importantly, because of Chris' actions, people's lives were threatened in the Summer Wells case.

Please do not discuss this post on this thread. If you have any questions please email me at websleuthsvideos@gmail.com

Tricia
 
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Folks, it is only member speculation that these killings could be the work of a serial killer.

Please leave Bundy and the rest of that mottley crew out of this discussion until/unless LE indicates there could be a SK at work here.

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ADMIN NOTE:

The "public's right to know" discussion has derailed this thread for pages now. That is a social justice issue (which will never be solved via discussion at Websleuths) ... when the actual topic of this discussion is the tragic killing of 4 young adults.

Move on to discuss the actual case.

Thank you.
 
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@10ofRods Regarding Advanced Placement. That isn’t what I was suggesting. I was wondering if K might have arrived as a Freshman with enough Advanced Placement credits to clear out some General Ed requirements and be a half year ahead of the game, right from the start of her college time. (That would have given her more opportunities, not less, to follow her special interests.)

That wouldn’t be at all impossible, from what I know of modern HS AP opportunities. I was responding to people who couldn’t understand how she might be graduating a half year early. Lots of other possible reasons for that, of course.

All my speculation
 
I just wanted to comment on the fact that several time I have stopped by I see members postulating this is a hunter or someone familiar with hunting. Hunters don't kill with knives. And knowing where the liver is on a white tail is not really meaningful in this kind of attack. Many lethal stabbing murders occur in our cities among people who don't know anything about hunting. It is fairly common sense to know that a large knife plunging stab wound to upper torso/chest is going to be gigantic trauma, immediately debilitating and if with a big knife, mortal.
 
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@10ofRods Regarding Advanced Placement. That isn’t what I was suggesting. I was wondering if K might have arrived as a Freshman with enough Advanced Placement credits to clear out some General Ed requirements and be a half year ahead of the game, right from the start of her college time.

That wouldn’t be at all impossible, from what I know of modern HS AP opportunities. I was responding to people who couldn’t understand how she might be graduating a half year early. Lots of other possible reasons for that, of course.

agreed. I did my degree in three years. Not because I was intelligent -- but to save money. When I went to school if you had no AP, it was 15 credits a semester. Not to hard to do 18, 20 or even 22 if you are studious. Not hard to do 4 or 6 over the summer.
As far as the vitim that was going to Texas for an internship, is there any hard evidence that was not for credit as well?
 
@10ofRods thank you for confirming that what you stated about the heart and arteries/veins being intentionally avoided during the stabbing were only your opinion. It appeared that you were stating it as fact when I was reading it since I didn’t see any reference to it being your opinion.
 
My apologies if this has been posted. I’ve look and didn’t see a new press release posted yet.


• “At this time in the investigation, detectives do not believe the female associate professor and chair of the history department at the University of Idaho suing a TikTok user for defamation is involved in this crime. The Moscow Police Department will not provide a statement about the ongoing civil process.”


• “There have been numerous inquiries from members of the public and media to verify digital media published online. Any picture or video provided through the official public records request process is authentic. However, once a record is released, we can no longer verify its authenticity as we do not know if anything has been altered. Detectives are aware of videos distributed by local businesses.”

Are they referring to the video released by Fox News ? I have never seen them address a video evidence released by businesses through news media and this recent released moo, imo they believe may have been altered.


• “Investigators believe someone has information that adds context to what occurred on the night of the murders and continue requesting additional pictures, video, and social media content. Our focus remains on the investigation, not an individual’s activities displayed in the tip. Whether you believe it is significant or not, your information might be one of the puzzle pieces that help solve these murders. Digital submission of tips and leads will not be publicly disclosed due to our ongoing commitment to keep information private and details may be pertinent to the ongoing criminal investigation.”

MOO, this stood out to me the most. To me, it looks like they believe several people may have been aware or involved in the murder.

• Progress continues to locate the white 2011-2013 Hyundai Elantra believed to be in the immediate area of the King Road residence during the early morning hours of November 13th. Investigators believe the occupant(s) may have critical information to share regarding this case and have identified over 22,000 vehicles. If you know of, or own, a vehicle matching this description, or know of anyone who may have been driving this specific vehicle on the days preceding or the day of the murders, please forward that information to the Tip Line.


• No suspect(s) has been identified and only vetted information that does not hinder the investigation will be released to the public. We encourage referencing official releases for accurate and updated progress. All press releases and related information is available at: King Road Homicides | Moscow, ID.


• Updates will be provided when new information is available for release.
The Moscow Police Department thanks our community for their continued sup
 
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Branmuffin wrote this fine post:

Snipped a little.


When we talk about psychopaths we always couch them in negative terms. And yet, it's been said by many professionals that some of the characteristics of a psychopath can be considered positive traits especially in certain professions. Things like ruthlessness, charisma, focus, coolness under pressure, etc. Those can be the character traits of people like CEOs of large corporations, politicians, and surgeons. Even someone like James Bond could be classified a psychopath the way he dispatches his enemies. There is a scene in Casino Royale where someone says, "Killing all those people? It doesn't bother you?" To which Bond replies, "I wouldn't be very good at my job, if I did."

So those traits like ruthlessness and focus can be considered positive if they allow enable an individual to treat the murders like a transaction, one that they benefit from.

I also feel like there is a connection between the murders and the fraternity. I don't know what it is but I feel like one of those killed was in a position to destroy someone's future. I also have this feeling that the fraternity has a shadowy influence over what occurred on November 13th. And even though I believe one person is responsible for the killings, I think one person or even more are well aware of who the killer is and their survival instincts keep them from saying anything. All my opinion.

What an excellent set of topics. When I was first trained, we were told never to use the terms "sociopath" or "psychopath" and yet, researchers all around the world kept using them. Sometime after 2000, there was a cautious attempt by psychologists to redefine these terms and discuss them. This discussion, in fact, is stalling a new edition of DSM from coming out (well, it's just part of the reason).

SPECT analysis/MRI analysis gave a glimpse into the brains of people who had been diagnosed with APD (Antisocial PD). In theory, the PD's are supposed to be mostly learned, mostly nurture. But by the 1980's, every could see there was *some* biological/genetic/epigenetic basis to it. It ran in families. Kids who were adopted by non-APD people whose parents were APD had a greater chance of being APD, etc.

And then the brain results started coming in (various parts of the brain now implicated - not completely understood yet). And so, according to DSM, this can't be strictly a character/personality disorder. It has its own genes and physiology, It appears that it can be caused by lesions in the brain as well (acquired).

SO, now people are looking at other personality disorders - especially the Cluster B disorders that are so close to APD and doing brain research on Histrionic PD, Narcissistic PD, etc. I don't think the brain scans are as dramatic as with Antisocial - but the research is new and, well, putting the right people into studies is a highly controversial topic.


ANYWAY, let's start with the milder term (sociopath, or Antisocial PD). Almost exactly the same things could be said about Narcissistic PD, so keep that in mind. If a person has a baseline personality of Antisocial but also shows features of other antisocial traits from other diagnostic categories, what do we call them? Increasingly, journals in psychology are using the term "sociopath." I heard a colleague say recently that the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath is that they are both capable of lopping your head off with a sword, but the sociopath knows better than to carry the head around with him.

Sociopaths (and more rarely psychopaths) DO find their way into management positions. When they do, it's an awful thing for the people who work under them. They are vaguely scary to most people with sensitivity to the emotions of those around them and they may indeed be capable of almost any sort of fraud, lie, embezzlement, theft - and ultimately, nepotism, other law breaking etc. How far will they go to cover up what they do? Very far and that's when we see an Alex Murdaugh kind of person. Narcissistic PD is similar. The good news is that while Narcissistic PD is increasing rather dramatically according to psychometrists and their journals, Antisocial PD is not increasing as rapidly (it's thought to have gone down dramatically since 1970, mostly due to improved birth control and availability of reproductive rights, but that remains to be seen).

In any hierarchy, there's a top dog. I've been pretty amazed at how straightforward and congenial Chief Fry has been in his leadership role. Looks like a great guy to me. As compared to those young people who are coming out on the body cams and lying or falsely apologizing to police. They aren't sorry they got caught - they are going to do it again the next week or the next day (Sept 1-2, LE records from Moscow PD). Yet, the leaders of these houses (not just the ones on fraternity row, but including some private houses where students live) seem to need this quality of lying, dissembling, pointing blame elsewhere, etc. Are these situations creating Future Leaders who are antisocial?

How far does such a person go with their behavior? What if they have a natural tendency not to check their conscience before acting? It turns out that the right pre-frontal cortex does a check on one's action as to its morality, while the left pre-frontal cortex handles the same information to gauge practicality and to be efficient and methodical. So, if I really were to bet money on something, and I only bet $1, my left pre-frontal cortex would say, Okay, that's not an outrageous violation of practicality. But if I decide to withdraw all my available savings to bet on something (it hurts just to type that - as in, I feel my stomach tighten), my left cortical response is a firm NO and my moral response is kicking in very hard too (hence the visceral response).

Sociopaths and psychopaths do not have the same yin/yang going on. They do not get a visceral, basically anxious response when they get ideas for bad action (including thoughts). The mere thought of ruining my family's financial life makes me anxious; to some extent studying crime makes me anxious, as just imagining moral transgression is a bit anxiety producing. For a normal person.

Try and imagine someone who can fantasize increasingly awful things (think about what's happened in the Dark Web and how we now actually have to face societal problems like CSA and CP because enough people do not, apparently, have automatic (autonomic included) responses to bad behavior. We know from toddler and pre-school studies that even small children get anxious responses even if their mother tells them doing a naughty thing is okay (like spilling paint on the floor). Kindergarten teachers are remarkably good at leading researchers to the kids-without-consciences. And there are likely genes involved.

Does anyone really want to know all this though? Do we as a society want better ways to deal with this? What happens when a person is APD, NPD and something else? It's more and more common (or we're using our diagnostics differently - or perhaps more sensitively).

I have worked with military and LE for a long time (teaching in police academies; doing seminars; helping with personnel manuals and procedures) and I can tell you that the military and LE have strict codes of conduct for very good reasons. Some professions require a dash of antisocial behavior to be good at them (surgeons score higher on this scale - but not pathologically high in most cases, although there's always that Dr Death guy). Strict codes of conduct allow leaders to figure out who is just generally incapable of following even basic rules. Those are your sociopaths or future sociopaths.

Who is playing that "rein them in" role on college campuses? Professors have abdicated it. Parents used to do it (now they threaten to sue if we give their kids a bad grade, much less "discipline" them). Many professors I know are giving up almost entirely on issues around plagiarism and cheating. Gotta keep the students happy. Tough professors are avoided, easy ones get bonuses for large classes.

How do we fix this? Or even figure out what's going on in a real world situation? I am guessing the BAU of the FBI is giving suggestions. LE really want to find this perp, but we don't want any LE harmed - and LEO's are typically honorable and wish *not* to harm people - even lawbreakers, just bring 'em to justice.

Anyway, long post (again) but this crime has us all aghast and I am personally agitated by it and worried for LE as well as the poor families. No one is prepared for what appears to be an actual psychopath (some who leaves dead bodies in plain sight, four of them, waiting to alarm an entire community - a whole nation, perhaps the entire world). Wants to scare and thereby control all of us.
 
@10ofRods thank you for confirming that what you stated about the heart and arteries/veins being intentionally avoided during the stabbing were only your opinion. It appeared that you were stating it as fact when I was reading it since I didn’t see any reference to it being your opinion.

Yeah, I'd said it was my opinion (and provided the link to SG's statements a bunch of times, but forgot).

SG said it was lungs and liver. That is not my opinion - he's on video saying it, he said it. It's in MSM too. I'm very sorry I didn't post it each and every time. I'll do better - when I find it I'll post the link one more time.

I believe SG and we're allowed to treat his words as facts here, so I am.

Here's the link once again:


Everything else is JMO.
 
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My apologies if this has been posted. I’ve look and didn’t see a new press release posted yet.


• “At this time in the investigation, detectives do not believe the female associate professor and chair of the history department at the University of Idaho suing a TikTok user for defamation is involved in this crime. The Moscow Police Department will not provide a statement about the ongoing civil process.”


• “There have been numerous inquiries from members of the public and media to verify digital media published online. Any picture or video provided through the official public records request process is authentic. However, once a record is released, we can no longer verify its authenticity as we do not know if anything has been altered. Detectives are aware of videos distributed by local businesses.”

Are they referring to the video released by Fox News ? I have never seen them address a video evidence released by businesses through news media and this recent released moo, imo they believe may have been altered.


• “Investigators believe someone has information that adds context to what occurred on the night of the murders and continue requesting additional pictures, video, and social media content. Our focus remains on the investigation, not an individual’s activities displayed in the tip. Whether you believe it is significant or not, your information might be one of the puzzle pieces that help solve these murders. Digital submission of tips and leads will not be publicly disclosed due to our ongoing commitment to keep information private and details may be pertinent to the ongoing criminal investigation.”

MOO, this stood out to me the most. To me, it looks like they believe several people may have been aware or involved in the murder.

• Progress continues to locate the white 2011-2013 Hyundai Elantra believed to be in the immediate area of the King Road residence during the early morning hours of November 13th. Investigators believe the occupant(s) may have critical information to share regarding this case and have identified over 22,000 vehicles. If you know of, or own, a vehicle matching this description, or know of anyone who may have been driving this specific vehicle on the days preceding or the day of the murders, please forward that information to the Tip Line.


• No suspect(s) has been identified and only vetted information that does not hinder the investigation will be released to the public. We encourage referencing official releases for accurate and updated progress. All press releases and related information is available at: King Road Homicides | Moscow, ID.


• Updates will be provided when new information is available for release.
The Moscow Police Department thanks our community for their continued sup
If the Elantra belongs to a close or social members of the students, wouldn't one of them reported that information to LE by now?
 
My apologies if this has been posted. I’ve look and didn’t see a new press release posted yet.


• “At this time in the investigation, detectives do not believe the female associate professor and chair of the history department at the University of Idaho suing a TikTok user for defamation is involved in this crime. The Moscow Police Department will not provide a statement about the ongoing civil process.”


• “There have been numerous inquiries from members of the public and media to verify digital media published online. Any picture or video provided through the official public records request process is authentic. However, once a record is released, we can no longer verify its authenticity as we do not know if anything has been altered. Detectives are aware of videos distributed by local businesses.”

Are they referring to the video released by Fox News ? I have never seen them address a video evidence released by businesses through news media and this recent released moo, imo they believe may have been altered.


• “Investigators believe someone has information that adds context to what occurred on the night of the murders and continue requesting additional pictures, video, and social media content. Our focus remains on the investigation, not an individual’s activities displayed in the tip. Whether you believe it is significant or not, your information might be one of the puzzle pieces that help solve these murders. Digital submission of tips and leads will not be publicly disclosed due to our ongoing commitment to keep information private and details may be pertinent to the ongoing criminal investigation.”

MOO, this stood out to me the most. To me, it looks like they believe several people may have been aware or involved in the murder.

• Progress continues to locate the white 2011-2013 Hyundai Elantra believed to be in the immediate area of the King Road residence during the early morning hours of November 13th. Investigators believe the occupant(s) may have critical information to share regarding this case and have identified over 22,000 vehicles. If you know of, or own, a vehicle matching this description, or know of anyone who may have been driving this specific vehicle on the days preceding or the day of the murders, please forward that information to the Tip Line.


• No suspect(s) has been identified and only vetted information that does not hinder the investigation will be released to the public. We encourage referencing official releases for accurate and updated progress. All press releases and related information is available at: King Road Homicides | Moscow, ID.


• Updates will be provided when new information is available for release.
The Moscow Police Department thanks our community for their continued sup
Is LE actually stopping white Elantras and questioning drivers?
 
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I just wanted to comment on the fact that several time I have stopped by I see members postulating this is a hunter or someone familiar with hunting. Hunters don't kill with knives. And knowing where the liver is on a white tail is not really meaningful in this kind of attack. Many lethal stabbing murders occur in our cities among people who don't know anything about hunting. It is fairly common sense to know that a large knife plunging stab wound to upper torso/chest is going to be gigantic trauma, immediately debilitating and if with a big knife, mortal.

While it's true that not all hunters of non-human animals are killers of human animals, there is a correlation between animal cruelty and human violence, per the FBI: The Link Between Animal Cruelty and Human Violence | FBI: Law Enforcement Bulletin

Now, granted, that article is about companion animals, but for some of us, the idea of animal cruelty is not specific to species. And IMO JMO from what I know about hunting, the skills required to field dress and prep a dead animal are pretty brutal (evisceration, bleeding out, etc.), so I could see how a wanna-be killer of humans might practice on non-human animals first, and perhaps that is why some theorize that this killer is a hunter. That's just IMO MO IDK ICBW.

I would say that it's the other way around, in this case, and it's more like this hunter is not really a hunter, he's really just a killer in training, and he's using animals until he graduates to humans. But I did look it up, and hunters do sometimes kill an animal with a knife (not sure what I can link here, so just using this one from npr: When We Hunt, Do We Murder?).

IMO JMO I think it's fair to consider that the killer may or may not be a hunter, but IMO the skills developed during hunting could aid a future killer of humans in their quest, and just presenting the other side of the argument for consideration.

edited to correct a couple of redundant maybes and to clarify a point.
 
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My apologies if this has been posted. I’ve look and didn’t see a new press release posted yet.


• “At this time in the investigation, detectives do not believe the female associate professor and chair of the history department at the University of Idaho suing a TikTok user for defamation is involved in this crime. The Moscow Police Department will not provide a statement about the ongoing civil process.”


• “There have been numerous inquiries from members of the public and media to verify digital media published online. Any picture or video provided through the official public records request process is authentic. However, once a record is released, we can no longer verify its authenticity as we do not know if anything has been altered. Detectives are aware of videos distributed by local businesses.”

Are they referring to the video release by Fox News ? I have never seen them address video evidence release by businesses via media before and this recent released moo, they believe may have been altered.


• “Investigators believe someone has information that adds context to what occurred on the night of the murders and continue requesting additional pictures, video, and social media content. Our focus remains on the investigation, not an individual’s activities displayed in the tip. Whether you believe it is significant or not, your information might be one of the puzzle pieces that help solve these murders. Digital submission of tips and leads will not be publicly disclosed due to our ongoing commitment to keep information private and details may be pertinent to the ongoing criminal investigation.”

MOO, this stood out to me the most. To me, it looks like they believe several people may have been aware or involved in the murder.

• Progress continues to locate the white 2011-2013 Hyundai Elantra believed to be in the immediate area of the King Road residence during the early morning hours of November 13th. Investigators believe the occupant(s) may have critical information to share regarding this case and have identified over 22,000 vehicles. If you know of, or own, a vehicle matching this description, or know of anyone who may have been driving this specific vehicle on the days preceding or the day of the murders, please forward that information to the Tip Line.


• No suspect(s) has been identified and only vetted information that does not hinder the investigation will be released to the public. We encourage referencing official releases for accurate and updated progress. All press releases and related information is available at: King Road Homicides | Moscow, ID.


• Updates will be provided when new information is available for release.
The Moscow Police Department thanks our community for their continued sup
Not disputing what you're saying, but thinking about the minds of individuals. Why in the world would more than one person be involved in a murder unless it was for a financial reason, i.e. stealing? I just cannot fathom what would motivate a mass murder group effort. If several are aware, what mindsets have no conscience/
 
Yeah, I'd said it was my opinion (and provided the link to SG's statements a bunch of times, but forgot).

SG said it was lungs and liver. That is not my opinion - he's on video saying it, he said it. It's in MSM too. I'm very sorry I didn't post it each and every time. I'll do better - when I find it I'll post the link one more time.

I believe SG and we're allowed to treat his words as facts here, so I am.
Oh I remember him saying that too. I didn’t take it as those were the only injuries Kaylee sustained but they very well could have been. I guess all we know for sure is chest and upper body, which includes multiple vital parts and I’m sure many of those vital parts were hit when the night was finished.
 
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