Norway Norway - Oslo, WhtFem 20-30, Fake Name, shot in hotel room, Jun'95

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These are just MOO, some theories and thoughts.

What I don't understand about the suicide theory is why go through all the trouble to remain unidentifiable but choose to end it in a nice hotel? I understand wanting to remain untraceable after committing suicide but why choose such a public place where you know you will be found within minutes? My two theories are 1. This was her last wish and she wanted to go out in a nice hotel. 2. She's certain that there is no way she will be traced to anyone. No close family or friends, no stable job, no criminal record, confident enough that she will not be recognized. Or, simply, no longer caring if she is because she'll be long gone by then.

The second thing that caught me up was the two gunshots and the bunch of ammo she had on her. But then I remembered that survival instincts are very real, even for people dead set on committing. Shaky hands, running thoughts. I could see her missing (maybe she had her eyes closed or was unfamiliar with firearms) or purposefully misfiring. Then realizing that people have heard her and it's now or never. As for the amount of ammo, I'm not entirely sure why but my best guess is that she had to buy ammo and she was just given a larger amount than she needed.

As for the second person, if there was one, they could have helped. In which case I guess it technically would be murder. One last day out to go do whatever you want to do, and then meandering back to the hotel to decide whether or not to go through with it. Maybe the other person didn't know that this was the plan, and the lady shot herself with no regard for her companion there with her.
 
The two who stated that they thought this was just a suicide of some random woman, do some further research and further thinking...

I watched the Netflix documentary, and I must admit I thought this at first. But THEN, I watched it again ... And also the documentary at that Norwegian newspaper VG and quickly made 180 degrees change in my thinking.

Everything point towards a staged suicide! I mean EVERYTHING, they never heard two shots (firm belief she was killed with a silencer hours earlier), one was in the pillow... Gun was still in her hand, gun experts say its almost impossible... The strength of that gun is so that it will be thrown out of your hands (if you at the same time you shoot with it you shoot yourself and kill yourself). Men perfume (obviously to make the smell of death less)... Etc.

Intelligence expert is 100% sure this was a murder and staged suicide and intelligence related (watch Netflix and VG, the Norwegian newspapers video on it).

I have said it before, I think she was shot while resting on the bed. Point blank, with a silencer. The shot they heard was in the pillow. (And NO POINT were two shots reported). He obviously stayed in the room and stayed in the room too long, I think he was trying to do it "perfect" and it took too long time.
 
Watch from 14:05

I'm just saying Belarus has a thing for silence (people who know the country say that, if they're not silent) and silencers.

Everything points towards Belarus/Russia.
 
"Before being executed, all prisoners on death row are transferred to Minsk Detention Center No. 1 (СИЗО, or SIZO No. 1), in the country's capital Minsk.[19] The method used to carry out the sentence is execution by shooting.[8] The executioner is a member of the "committee for the execution of sentences," which also chooses the area where the execution will take place.[19] According to the book The Death Squad by Oleg Alkayev (Олег Алкаев), on the day of execution the convict is transported to a secret location where he is told by officials that all appeals have been rejected. The convict is then blindfolded and taken to a nearby room, where two staffers force him to kneel in front of a bullet backstop. The executioner then shoots the convict in the back of his head with a PB-9 pistol equipped with a suppressor. According to Alkayev, "The whole procedure, starting with the announcement about denied appeals and ending with the gunshot, lasts no longer than two minutes".[20"

Suppressor is ofcourse a silencer for those who dont know.
 
www.vg.no

Mystery at the Oslo Plaza

In a room at the Oslo Plaza Hotel, a young, elegant woman is found dead, with a gun shot wound to the head. Why did she check in under a false name? Why are the labels removed from her clothes? Why has no one reported her missing? After 22 years, her grave is re-opened.
www.vg.no

Go a bit further down for the video from this Norwegian newspaper, its with English subtitles.
 
InternetDetective said:
The two who stated that they thought this was just a suicide of some random woman, do some further research and further thinking...

I watched the Netflix documentary, and I must admit I thought this at first. But THEN, I watched it again ... And also the documentary at that Norwegian newspaper VG and quickly made 180 degrees change in my thinking.

Everything point towards a staged suicide! I mean EVERYTHING, they never heard two shots (firm belief she was killed with a silencer hours earlier), one was in the pillow... Gun was still in her hand, gun experts say its almost impossible... The strength of that gun is so that it will be thrown out of your hands (if you at the same time you shoot with it you shoot yourself and kill yourself). Men perfume (obviously to make the smell of death less)... Etc.

Intelligence expert is 100% sure this was a murder and staged suicide and intelligence related (watch Netflix and VG, the Norwegian newspapers video on it).

I have said it before, I think she was shot while resting on the bed. Point blank, with a silencer. The shot they heard was in the pillow. (And NO POINT were two shots reported). He obviously stayed in the room and stayed in the room too long, I think he was trying to do it "perfect" and it took too long time.
Click to expand...

Silencers don't really silence. They can reduce the sound but it's not negligible.

Here's an excerpt from a Washington Post article from 2017 regarding silencers vs ear plugs.

"Peters acknowledged that gun enthusiasts recommend that even with suppressors, other hearing protection is necessary. Hearing damage begins to occur at about 85 decibels, about the sound of a hairdryer.
This gets us to the other issue — whether a suppressor makes it “quiet,” as Gillibrand tweeted, and harder for law enforcement officials to detect, as she and ARS suggested.

A 30-decibel reduction in theory means an AR-15 rifle would have a noise equivalent of 132 decibels. That is considered equivalent to a gunshot or a jackhammer. A .22-caliber pistol would be 116 decibels, which is louder than a 100-watt car stereo. In all likelihood, the noise level is actually higher."

You can read the rest of the article below.


So your theory regarding a silencer doesn't really track for me. I think the open window was twofold. An attempt to disguise time of death to throw off suspicion regarding who could be the killer (did someone check out earlier than their original reservation?) and an attempt to fool any hotel residents that the second gun shot could have been mistaken for a vehicle backfiring if they heard a report outside.

To disguise TOD we'd have to know what the ambient temperature inside the hotel was versus the temperature outside since the window was open. Was it open to change the temperature of the environment? If so we'd have to know, was the heat on or the AC? Historical records of the temperature in Oslo on June 3, 1995 show that there was some cloud cover and the temperature hovered between 17 and 20 degrees C if she was killed several hours before her body was discovered.

I do believe this woman was murdered, then a scenario was hastily created by the perp inferring she committed suicide.

Why she was murdered? Ah, that is the question. It could be a multitude of reasons. A mistress pressuring her lover to divorce? A prostitute who met the worst john of her life? A foolish woman who tried to blackmail someone? A spy who was liquidated?

There are two types of espionage: Nation/state and Industrial. According to Sun Tzu (The Art of War) there are five classifications of espionage: Local spies, Inward spies, Converted spies, Doomed spies and Surviving spies. You can read about the descriptions here:

www.shortform.com

Sun Tzu on Spies: 5 Types of Spies and How to Use Them

In The Art of War, Sun Tzu advocates for the use of spies. Learn the 5 types of Sun Tzu's spies and how he suggests warriors use them to win battles.
www.shortform.com www.shortform.com

I'm interested in why it took so long for LE to show up between the time the shot was heard and when they arrived. There was an important event taking place during the time JF was registered as a guest. I can't remember whether we've ever been advised what the event was.
 
branmuffin said:
Silencers don't really silence. They can reduce the sound but it's not negligible.

Here's an excerpt from a Washington Post article from 2017 regarding silencers vs ear plugs.

"Peters acknowledged that gun enthusiasts recommend that even with suppressors, other hearing protection is necessary. Hearing damage begins to occur at about 85 decibels, about the sound of a hairdryer.
This gets us to the other issue — whether a suppressor makes it “quiet,” as Gillibrand tweeted, and harder for law enforcement officials to detect, as she and ARS suggested.

A 30-decibel reduction in theory means an AR-15 rifle would have a noise equivalent of 132 decibels. That is considered equivalent to a gunshot or a jackhammer. A .22-caliber pistol would be 116 decibels, which is louder than a 100-watt car stereo. In all likelihood, the noise level is actually higher."

You can read the rest of the article below.


So your theory regarding a silencer doesn't really track for me. I think the open window was twofold. An attempt to disguise time of death to throw off suspicion regarding who could be the killer (did someone check out earlier than their original reservation?) and an attempt to fool any hotel residents that the second gun shot could have been mistaken for a vehicle backfiring if they heard a report outside.

To disguise TOD we'd have to know what the ambient temperature inside the hotel was versus the temperature outside since the window was open. Was it open to change the temperature of the environment? If so we'd have to know, was the heat on or the AC? Historical records of the temperature in Oslo on June 3, 1995 show that there was some cloud cover and the temperature hovered between 17 and 20 degrees C if she was killed several hours before her body was discovered.

I do believe this woman was murdered, then a scenario was hastily created by the perp inferring she committed suicide.

Why she was murdered? Ah, that is the question. It could be a multitude of reasons. A mistress pressuring her lover to divorce? A prostitute who met the worst john of her life? A foolish woman who tried to blackmail someone? A spy who was liquidated?

There are two types of espionage: Nation/state and Industrial. According to Sun Tzu (The Art of War) there are five classifications of espionage: Local spies, Inward spies, Converted spies, Doomed spies and Surviving spies. You can read about the descriptions here:

www.shortform.com

Sun Tzu on Spies: 5 Types of Spies and How to Use Them

In The Art of War, Sun Tzu advocates for the use of spies. Learn the 5 types of Sun Tzu's spies and how he suggests warriors use them to win battles.
www.shortform.com www.shortform.com

I'm interested in why it took so long for LE to show up between the time the shot was heard and when they arrived. There was an important event taking place during the time JF was registered as a guest. I can't remember whether we've ever been advised what the event was.
Click to expand...
A supressor or silencer, hence the name, does supress the sound quite a bit. I understand it doesn't make it not sound, but through WALLS (silencer plus it being in another room) you could barely detect it as pistol firing. You would probably hear something, but it wouldn't have the distinct loud gun shot sound.


Everything points towards a silencer being used and that the shot they heard was in the pillow (obviously without the silencer).
 
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Further, espionage can also be a combination of the two - ie. industrial AND nation. I am actually leaning towards that this could be related to something like that.
 
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What he did with the silencer is similar to what be did with the perfume bottle. Supress/distort the sound, make it sound less/differently... And supress/distort the smell (smell of death), make it smell less/differently.
 
You are actually somewhat wrong about the silencer/supressor, that it would not reduce the sound QUITE A BIT, which it does.

 
InternetDetective said:
A supressor or silencer, hence the name, does supress the sound quite a bit. I understand it doesn't make it not sound, but through WALLS (silencer plus it being in another room) you could barely detect it as pistol firing. You would probably hear something, but it wouldn't have the distinct loud gun shot sound.


Everything points towards a silencer being used and that the shot they heard was in the pillow (obviously without the silencer).
Click to expand...

A silencer can still create enough noise that would make someone lift their heads up from whatever they are doing if they were walking down the hallway, in a hotel room next door or across the hall. If someone was playing loud music, either in room 2805 or across the hall or next door it's possible it could be buried within other sounds but a lone gunshot could have been heard through the doors. A silencer can reduce a gunshot by about 35 dB, it doesn't become a 35dB sound. Also, I don't know if the barrel of the Browning was threaded to accept a silencer. In 2016 Browning started making weapons with a suppressor-ready barrel but this gun was old.
 
branmuffin said:
Modern and outside. Show me one from 25 years ago.
Click to expand...

14 years ago

It's the same stuff, similar supressor as back in the 90s - believe me.

Without it, it will ring in everyone's ears as a gunshot - without it, being in another room, one shot... Someone might just notice it as a weird sound, like something heavy hit the floor or a door being shut hard.

This happened in the early morning hours or so. Most people in the rooms on the same floor would be asleep. A gun shot, without a silencer, would most likely wake at least one person up if not many. And those awake would have heard it and thought to themselves "what the heck!". A gun shot with a silencer would most likely not wake up a next door neighbor, and if someone heard something it would be something they wouldn't register as a gunshot.
 
branmuffin said:
A silencer can still create enough noise that would make someone lift their heads up from whatever they are doing if they were walking down the hallway, in a hotel room next door or across the hall. If someone was playing loud music, either in room 2805 or across the hall or next door it's possible it could be buried within other sounds but a lone gunshot could have been heard through the doors. A silencer can reduce a gunshot by about 35 dB, it doesn't become a 35dB sound. Also, I don't know if the barrel of the Browning was threaded to accept a silencer. In 2016 Browning started making weapons with a suppressor-ready barrel but this gun was old.
Click to expand...
Can we agree on that a gunshot with a pistol without a silencer will be heard by people and wake at least one person up and clearly be heard by everyone awake down the hall? (Your point if I'm not mistaken)

Can we also agree on that a gunshot with a pistol WITH a silencer MAY NOT be heard by people and wake up anyone and not be heard by everyone awake down the hall?

<modsnip>
 
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Silencer or no silencer, this case has two unidentified persons. JF and the guest staying in room 2816 and whose newspaper was found in JF's room.
How did the unknown guest check in without a name? What happened to the fingerprint? Where was the unknown when the security guard heard the shot? How did unknown guest manage to leave the hotel without being questioned by LE?
I agree with you, it has KGB written all over it but, it also has CIA. Who reads the USA Today in a foreign country? An American citizen. Or someone undercover pretending to be an American citizen.

MOO JMO
 
Good evening,

interesting discussion which brings up a question for me.

Taking a look on the pillow, which has been used as silencer for a "test" shot (according to Oslo PD) I'm asking myself, how the mark on the pillow would look like if a silencer had been used - or if the mark would look different if no silencer was used...

I hope you catch what I mean?

1672182860805.png
 
OliverCromwell said:
Good evening,

interesting discussion which brings up a question for me.

Taking a look on the pillow, which has been used as silencer for a "test" shot (according to Oslo PD) I'm asking myself, how the mark on the pillow would look like if a silencer had been used - or if the mark would look different if no silencer was used...

I hope you catch what I mean?

View attachment 390281
Click to expand...
I don't think police determined it to having been used as a silencer. As I understand it their main theory is just that a shot was fired in to the pillow.

FYI Pillow was found away from the body turned/flipped, ie. what is shown on the picture, the entrance of the bullet on the bottom (also why these intelligence experts believe it was staged)

No expert on this, but I would assume there would be some way of determining how close the shot was fired from the pillow, if it was pointed at the pillow or fired from a distance.

My thinking here is, as stated before, that it was this that was heard by the security guard.
 
InternetDetective said:
Further, I am fully convinced "Lois" killed her in the morning hours. I believe he woke her up, said that they were going somewhere, she was still tired... And laid down in the bed, and he shot her with a silencer while she had her eyes closed.

When security guard came I believe he was cleaning it up and staging it, but it took too long time...
Click to expand...

And how, pray, did the gun get in her hand with the trigger fully depressed by her thumb unless she shot herself with it?

Besides, that would require a second gun as the one found obviously isn't equipped to accept a sound moderator.
 
azure said:
I think, like Somerton Man, if Oslo Jane Doe is ever identified, her story will be far more banal than the fanciful theories thrown around online.
Click to expand...

Absolutely! With the Sommerton Man case we've had decades of the most ridiculous and outlandish theories. In the end he's a relatively local electrician or something equally as uninteresting.

I'm pretty convinced that "Jennifer" will turn out to be equally normal when she's eventually identified.
 
OliverCromwell said:
Good evening,

interesting discussion which brings up a question for me.

Taking a look on the pillow, which has been used as silencer for a "test" shot (according to Oslo PD) I'm asking myself, how the mark on the pillow would look like if a silencer had been used - or if the mark would look different if no silencer was used...

I hope you catch what I mean?

View attachment 390281
Click to expand...

I cannot see how it is possible to say from that whether a moderator was used or not. You'd need to know the exact model of firearm and moderator, along with the ammunition used and compare results with and without.

The only thing which might differ may be the amount of residue and scorching around the hol I'd expect or to be less with the mod attached.
 
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