ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 54

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"Is DNA evidence circumstantial or direct?


It is important to remember, however, that DNA evidence, like much scientific evidence, is ultimately considered to be circumstantial evidence. This means that it does not definitively prove anything the point which needs to be proved within the trial, and instead provides only a strong inference in favor of the point."

The court will instruct jurors to ignore commonly understood distinctions and restrictions on their ability to determine what is proved and not proved. For example, here's an excerpt from Idaho Criminal Jury Instruction 104:

"Some of you have probably heard the terms 'circumstantial evidence,' 'direct evidence' and 'hearsay evidence'. Do not be concerned with these terms. You are to consider all the evidence admitted in this trial.
However, the law does not require you to believe all the evidence. As the sole judges of the facts, you must determine what evidence you believe and what weight you attach to it."
 
Post in thread 'ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 53' ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 53

So I am asked how I think DNA on the sheath is a weak place.

Oh, I am positive it was his DNA. Question about how it got there and why nowhere else in the house given the (predicted) bloodless of the scene. Just one print.

First, the sheath could have been planted by the real killer who knew BK.

As to the rest... BK might have been waiting in the car near the house for his dealer, for example.

The witness who puts someone with "bushy eyebrows" on this place I would not consider reliable.

The car movements and the phone "behavior" are more reliable.
 
I think he did it for the same reason he didn't fight the extradition--he was overwhelmed with curiosity and the suspense was killing him. I think he probably waited for hours in his apartment for some sort of news of a quadruple homicide, and when he didn't get it, he drove by the house to see what was going on. Since he was never a traditional student, it may not have occurred to him that the murders wouldn't be discovered until later in the day due to people sleeping in until noon or so. MOO

Agreed. He left a witness alive and he left a key piece of evidence. He messed up and he knew it. And I’m sure he was completely perplexed on why cops and others weren’t swarming the place within minutes of his departure and news wasn’t breaking as soon as he got back to WSU apartment. I’m guessing he tossed the knife, out the window without stopping, on that long route back.
 
I’m sure this has been said, but I’m super curious when he went back to class- was it immediately the next day? The next week?

I’m guessing a lot of his classes the week of Nov. 16-19 were canceled because of PHD faculty being at the national Criminology conference (American Society of Criminology) in Atlanta. So did he have the week to “cool off” before attending classes again?

Source: asc41.org


To quote myself-

The more I think about timing and how it seems out of know where, this actually adds up.

If he knew preemptively that classes where going to be canceled the following week (as most of us faculty know for our syllabi when ASC is and plan accordingly), the timing of this tracks.

He would have known he had a week to lay low, with no classes and likely no supervisor meetings, or obligations. This would have been a perfect time to have a week not being seen by anyone.

Again not sure this was brought up, but makes sense to me timing wise.

Also, cannot 100% confirm he wasn’t at ASC, but he was not registered or on any panels. Which would make sense for a first semester PhD student.
 
The probable cause affidavit mentions cell tower evidence showing BK’s phone being in the area of the King St house on the 14th, but they do not believe that to be true. How can they say that?

Here is the excerpt from the PCA:
Investigators found that the 8458 Phone did connect to a cell phone tower that provides service to Moscow on November 14, 2022, but investigators do not believe the 8458 Phone was in Moscow on that date. The 8458 Phone has not connected to any towers that provide service to Moscow since that date.
Not only "how is that possible", but why was that information included in the PCA?
 
I wonder if they felt confident the DNA on the sheath was the murderer and while they may have lots of other sources to work through and identify, they did the sheath first as it would definitely be the killer. Perhaps his DNA will also turn up in a blood sample or other fluid, but it takes longer to sort through all of those and weed out the victims. Hopefully, they identify more sources of his DNA in the house.
Also, hopefully they will find some of the victim's DNA at his house or in his university office! IMO there is a very good chance of that happening.
 
<modsnip - quoted post was removed for victim-blaming>
I try to put myself in a college student's mindset. Maybe, this girl was trying to process what happened the night before. Could she have thought that they bought some kind of drug and had a reaction to it and this guy in black who said, "I'm here to help," was the one who sold it to them? She may have been scared but didn't want to get them into trouble if this were the case.

I wonder if she tried to call their phones after that. She said that she heard Kaylee playing with the dog. Did she try to call her to see what was going on? That's what I would do. If I got no answers from any housemates, I would call Jack or someone else to come over to the house first. I wouldn't know what to think, really. I think that I would be too afraid to go to sleep.

I also wonder if Xana may have answered the door, thinking that it was the Door Dash driver returning for some reason (like he forgot to give her the condiments). When she saw that it was a menacing stranger, she started to cry and retreat to her bedroom to get help from her boyfriend. That's when BK said, "I'm here to help."

In theory, her being awake could have foiled his plan of killing just one (Maddie) in the house. He probably thought that all of the housemates would be asleep at 4 a.m. Also, he probably wasn't expecting Kaylee to be there as she had moved out.

BK may have felt that he had to kill the witnesses to eliminate the possibility of them calling the police or identifying him.

I'm thinking that he didn't see the surviving housemate. Maybe, he was in a zone and focused on getting out of the house as soon as possible after killing four people. Plus, you think that it would take a lot of energy/effort to do so. Maybe, he was out of strength.

Of course, this is just speculation and my opinion only.
 
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Agreed. He left a witness alive and he left a key piece of evidence. He messed up and he knew it. And I’m sure he was completely perplexed on why cops and others weren’t swarming the place within minutes of his departure and news wasn’t breaking as soon as he got back to WSU apartment. I’m guessing he tossed the knife, out the window without stopping, on that long route back.
I personally don't think he was aware that anyone saw him, but I bet he was really sweating the sheath when he noticed it was missing. MOO
 
Y'all might be better at timelines than I am but I find them confusing when they jump around. Due to that I went through the PCA and put them in time order so I could make sense of things. I thought I'd share my notes in the event it helps others. :) Also note that while I copied and pasted from the PCA, I did whittle down on the wordiness as I was trying to capture the main points of that time. Lines with only a time and no date are all 11/13/22. I hope some of you find this useful.

8/21 – Bryan Kohberger was detained as part of a traffic stop that occurred in Moscow, Idaho, by CPL Duke. At the time, Kohberger was driving a white 2015 Hyundai Elantra with Pennsylvania plate LFZ-8649 which was set to expire on November 30, 2022.

8/21 ~10:34 pm to 11:35 pm – the 8458 Phone utilized cellular resources providing coverage to the King Road Residence.

8/21 @ ~11:37 - Kohberger was stopped by Latah County Sheriffs Deputy CPL Duke. The 8548 Phone was utilizing cellular resources consistent with the location of the traffic stop during this time (Farm Road and Pullman Highway). (Gemmie's note - He is arrested approximately 2 minutes after he stops stalking the occupants of the house on this date. Likely speeding away from King Rd. What a dumb bunny. He must be so excited over what he's doing that he can't even drive properly.)

10/14 - Bryan Kohberger was detained as part of a traffic stop by a WSU Police Officer.

11/12 and prior (up to June) - the 8458 Phone shows in the area of 1122 King Road on at least twelve occasions prior to November 13, 2022. All of these occasions, except for one, occurred in the late evening and early morning hours of their respective days.

11/12 @ ~9:00pm – 1:45am - Chapin & Kernodle are at the Sigma Chi house on the University of Idaho campus at 735 Nez Perce Drive. B.F. estimated that approximately, 1:45 a.m. Chapin & Kernodle returned home.

11/12 10:00pm - 11/13 1:30am - Goncalves and Mogen were at a local bar, the Corner Club at 202 N. Main Street, Moscow.

11/13@1:56am – Someone drove Mogen and Goncalves home.

2am – 4am - D.M. and B.F. made statements that indicated the occupants were at home by 2:00 a.m. and asleep or at least in their rooms by ~4:00 a.m.

2:42am - the 8458 Phone was utilizing cellular resources that provide coverage to 1630 Northeast Valley Road, Apt G201, Pullman, WA, the "Kohberger Residence."

2:44am - Suspect Vehicle 1 was observed travelling north on southeast Nevada Street at northeast Stadium Way.

~2:47 a.m., the 8458 Phone utilized cellular resources that provide coverage southeast of the Kohberger Residence consistent with the 8458 Phone leaving the Kohberger Residence and traveling south through Pullman, WA.

~2:47am - the 8458 Phone stops reporting to the network, which is consistent with either the phone being in an area without cellular coverage, the connection to the network is disabled

~2:53 a.m Suspect Vehicle 1 was observed traveling southeast on Nevada Street in Pullman, WA towards SR 270. SR 270 connects Pullman, Washington to Moscow, Idaho.

3:00am – 5:00am - A query did not show the 8458 Phone utilizing cellular tower resources in close proximity to the King Road Residence between 3:00 a-m. and 5:00 a.m. Based on training, experience, and conversations with law enforcement officers, individuals can leave their cellular telephone at a different location before committing a crime or tum their cellular phone off prior to going to a location to commit a crime.

3:26am – 3:28am – "Suspect Vehicle 1", was observed traveling westbound in the 700 block of Indian Hills Drive in Moscow @ ~3:26 and westbound on Styner Avenue at Idaho State Highway 95 in Moscow at approximately 3:28 a.m.

3:29am – 4:20am - multiple sightings of Suspect Vehicle 1 starting at 3:29 a.m. and ending at 4:20 a.m. These sightings show Suspect Vehicle I makes an initial three passes by the 1122 King Road residence and then leave via Walenta Drive.

4:00am - Kernodle, received a DoorDash order at the residence at approximately 4:00 a.m. (Gemmie’s note – That means she wasn’t asleep when things went down)

~4am - D.M. stated she was awoken at ~4:00 a.m. by what sounded like Goncalves playing with her dog on the third floor. A short time later, D.M. said she heard who she thought was Goncalves say something to the effect of "there's someone here."

4:04am - Suspect Vehicle 1 can be seen entering the area a fourth time at approximately 4:04 a.m. It can be seen driving eastbound on King Road, stopping and turning around in front of 500 Queen Road #52 and then driving back westbound on King Road. When Suspect Vehicle 1 is in front of the King Road residence, it appeared to unsuccessfully attempt to park or tum around in the road. The vehicle then continued to the intersection of Queen Road and King Road where it can be seen completing a three-point tum and then driving eastbound again down Queen Road.

4:12am - Kernodle's cellular phone indicated she was likely awake and using the TikTok app.

4:17am - a security camera picked up distorted audio of what sounded like voices or a whimper followed by a loud thud. A dog can also be heard barking numerous times starting at 4:17 a.m.

4:20am - Suspect Vehicle 1 is next seen departing the area of the King Road Residence at approximately 4:20 a.m. at a high rate of speed.

4:48am - The 8458 Phone does not report to the network again until approximately 4:48 a.m. at which time it utilized cellular resources that provide coverage to ID state highway 95 south of Moscow, ID near Blaine, ID (north of Genesee).

Between 4:50 am and 5:26 am, the phone utilizes cellular resources that are consistent with the 8458 Phone traveling south on ID state highway 95 to Genesee, ID, then traveling west towards Uniontown, ID, and then north back into Pullman, WA.

5:25 am Suspect Vehicle 1, was observed on five cameras in Pullman, WA and on WSU Campus cameras. The first camera was located at 1300 Johnson Road in Pullman. It was observed traveling northbound on Johnson Road. Johnson Road leads directly back to West Palouse River Drive in Moscow which intersects with Conestoga Drive. The white sedan was then observed turning north on Bishop Boulevard and northwest on SR 270.

~5:27 am - Suspect Vehicle 1 was traveling northbound on Stadium Way at Nevada Street, Stadium Way at Grimes Way, Stadium Drive at Wilson Road, and Stadium Way at Cougar Way.

~ 5:30 am, the 8458 Phone is utilizing resources that provide coverage to Pullman, WA and consistent with the phone traveling back to the Kohberger Residence.

9:00am - the 8458 Phone leaving the area of the Kohberger Residence at approximately 9:00 a.m. and traveling to Moscow, ID. Specifically, the 8458 Phone utilized cellular resources that would provide coverage to the King Road Residence between 9:12 a.m. and 9:21 am. (Gemmie's note - The creep was curious what was going on at the house. :()

9:32am - The 8458 Phone next utilized cellular resources that are consistent with the 8458 Phone traveling back to the area of the Kohberger Residence and arriving to the area at approximately 9:32 a.m.

12:36pm - the 8458 Phone showed it was near Kate's Cup of Joe coffee stand located at 810 Port Drive, Clarkston, WA. Surveillance footage from the US Chef’s Store located at 820 Port Drive, Clarkson, WA and adjacent to Kate's Cup of Joe showed Suspect Vehicle 1, drive past Kate's Cup of Joe at a time consistent with the cellular data from the 8548 Phone.

~12:46 pm - the 8458 Phone was at Albertson's grocery store at 400 Bridge Street in Clarkston, Washington. Surveillance footage obtained from the Albertson's showed Kohberger exit the white Elantra at approximately 12:49 p.m. Interior surveillance cameras showed Kohberger walk through the store, purchase unknown items at the checkout, and leave at approximately 1:04 p.m.

~5:32 p.m. - 5:36 p.m., the 8458 Phone utilized cellular resources that provide coverage to Johnson, ID. The 8458 Phone then stops reporting to the network from approximately 5:36 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. That is consistent with the 8458 Phone being in the area that the 8458 Phone traveled in the hours immediately following the suspected time the homicides occurred.

11/13 @ ~4:00pm – Moscow Police Department (MPD) Sergeant Blaker and I responded to 1122 King Road, Moscow, Idaho, hereafter the "King Road Residence," to assist with scene security and processing of a crime scene associated with four homicides. (Gemmie's note - I first thought this was the 911 call but realized this team went there to do exactly as it says. "Assist with security and crime processing".)

11/18 - Kohberger registered the Elantra with WA and later received WA plate CFB-8708. Prior to this, the Elantra was registered in Pennsylvania, which does not require a front license plate to be displayed

11/25 – be on the lookout for white Hyundai Elantra

11/29 - Washington State University (WSU) Police Officer Daniel Tiengo, queried white Elantra’s registered at WSU. As a result of that query he located a 2015 white Elantra with a Pennsylvania license plate LFZ-8649. This vehicle was registered to Bryan Kohberger

12/13 - vehicle was captured by a license plate reader in Loma.

12/15 - Kohberger's Elantra was then queried by law enforcement in Hancock County, Indiana.

12/16 ~2:26 p.m., surveillance video showed Kohberger's Elantra in Albrightsville, Pennsylvania.

12/27 – Trash pickup day!

 
I see a lot of posts on here about why didn't DM call LE right away. I don't have an answer for that. But I don't think any of us actually know how we would react in that actual situation. It easy to look at something from the outside looking in and make a judgement. But to her this had to be a nightmare. Maybe she couldn't fathom what she had just witnessed was real. Maybe she thought it had to be a dream and it didn't really happen. More than likely she was in shock.
 
My heart hurts so very much for Dylan and is filled with compassion for her.

My first cousin was in his early 20's when his best friend was murdered right in front of him.

The crime occurred in the home of his best friend (the victim) when the victim started arguing with his girlfriend.
He pinned her while she was standing, she reached grabbed a knife that was on the counter stabbing him several times. My cousin and the 2 others were horrified at what was unfolding right in front of them. But they were frozen, unable to comprehend. It was some time before the 911 call was made by a neighbor.

So in the aftermath, my cousin was never ever the same. He was a fantastic worker prior to that, he could never hold down a job and a few years later did not work again. He continued to live with my Aunt and Uncle.
He drank and did drugs more than he did prior to that incident. A lot more.

He was an avid hunter that always hunted every season with his father (my Uncle). He hunted only one time after that then never hunted again,
The deer carcass was in the back of the pickup, once home, they were both in the process of removing the deer and my cousin "flipped out". My Uncle said that he was shocked and had no clue at the time why that happened. Later, my Uncle finally found out.

The smell of the blood.

My cousin had smelled blood from deer hunting each and every time he hunted and removed the deer from the back of a pickup truck since he was old enough to hunt. But on that day, it all changed.

He associated that smell with the day his best friend was killed and the scent of blood he had to smell.

Sorry so long of a post and there are a lot more incidents that occurred with my cousin after. So many everyday things ringing his mind back to that day.
A scent, certain words, a person he passes in a store or anywhere in his life the resembles anyone in the house that day.
There was no way he would speak to a therapist. One time he did try on the prompting of my Aunt and Uncle, but he did not go again. According to my Aunt and Uncle, he felt there was no way that a therapist could help him because they have never experienced what he did, he just lived with the horror on his own.
He has guilt and so many other emotions. No, he could not have prevented what happened even though he has been told that there was nothing he could have done, he lives with guilt.

I could go on and on about the things in our every day life that we think nothing of, but to a traumatized person, it is utter hell.

I want to stress that the incident my cousin witnessed and mind state is nothing at all what Dylan is enduring.

I am just trying to say that Dylan experienced trauma like no other and throughout her lifetime, there are going to be trauma memories that can happen in an instant that no one will coincide and connect with that horrifying night.
She could be shopping one day, see, smell or hear something from her memory of the time of the murders and break down right then and there and no one would think at that moment it time that has anything to do with her traumatic experience.
Huge cyber hug to Dylan and so very much compassion to her.
Also bringing this forward. Great post @Thora_Jay
 
Apologies if this has been discussed, I haven't been able to keep up with the threads today.

A big question mark for me is his movements on the afternoon of the murders.
  • 12:36 pm: Suspects phone pinged near Kate’s Cup of Joe coffee, 810 Port Drive, Clarkston, WA. Surveillance footage across the street captures the suspect's car at this time.
  • 12:46 pm: Suspects phone pinged to Albertson's grocery store at 400 Bridge Street in Clarkston, WA. Surveillance footage shows the suspects Elantra and the suspect inside the store.
  • 1:04 pm: Surveillance footage shows the suspect leaving Alberton’s
  • 5:32 pm - 5:36 pm: Suspects phone pings in Johnson ID.
  • 5:36 pm - 8:30 pm: Suspects phone stops reporting to the network

What were the pings between 1:04 pm and 5:32 pm? What was he buying at Albertsons?

What was he doing in Johnson, ID, between 5:36 pm and 8:30 pm? The sun would have started setting by then. Is this when/where he disposed of the weapon?

Johnson, ID, is a little over 2 hours away from his apartment and is quite rural.

1672970388151.png

 
If defendant tells attorney he or she is guilty it is protected under attorney client privilege unless defendant takes and purgers himself on answer attorney knows is not true. That is supposed to be disclosed to judge . That is why attorney will not put defendant on stand if they tell attorney they did it. Still job is to provide defense to show reasonable doubt as prosecution has to prove guilty beyond reasonable doubt. You can still defend even if you know of guilt .Attorney must disclose to LE if they become aware of location or in possession of weapon or crucial evidence used in crime
 
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