UT - Family of 8 found dead in home by gunshot in Enoch, Jan 2023

[iamshadow21]

Contrary to what many people might believe, DV (and child abuse) are not uncommon in LDS households, at all.

My personal experience was that both are very much present and that the faith actually puts pressure on people to remain in toxic situations and make it work. It doesn't work. That's why it's such a big deal that the filing had actually happened in a family where the children were still all minors. That shows how broken this situation was, long before anyone died.

 

[iamshadow21]

I'm stumbling here. We have 7 people murdered by a family member. Yet 4 young adults murdered by a stranger in Idaho capture our attention to many hundreds of magnitudes in comparison. I'm not saying it shouldn't (I am devastated by those senseless, vicious murders), but we write off domestic violence like it's nothing. I guess that's because we believe that domestic violence can't happen to us if we have 'good lives' yet stranger violence COULD happen to us so it's more random and shocking.

My point is that every life lost to violence matters equally. But we don't treat them as such.
(And don't get me going on indigenous lives!!! or lives of people who live high risk lifestyles!)

Thank you for reading my rant. I just needed to get that out of my system. My apologies.

I think it's less about caring about one set of victims more than the other, and more that there's no mystery here. If it had come out that this family had been killed by a stranger from the outside, you can bet that this thread would be flying. But there's nothing to sleuth, here. The monster was inside the walls of the home all along. Domestic violence is just as shocking, moreso, in my opinion, because it's someone you love and trust. He should have been cherishing his family, divorce or no, and he did the polar opposite. It's obscene.

I can only speak for myself, but this case actually upsets me more than Moscow, because none of these kids got even a taste of life as an adult like Xana, Ethan, Kaylee, and Maddie did. But there is no trauma olympics. In both cases, a whole lot of folks died unnecessarily. I don't care less because there's less to say, here.

MOO

 

[LordMo]

My personal experience was that both are very much present and that the faith actually puts pressure on people to remain in toxic situations and make it work. It doesn't work. That's why it's such a big deal that the filing had actually happened in a family where the children were still all minors. That shows how broken this situation was, long before anyone died.

ay, wish there was a "care" response like Facebook so I could give this a heart without looking crazy

 

[iamshadow21]

ay, wish there was a "care" response like Facebook so I could give this a heart without looking crazy

Reply with anything other than a laughing emoji and it's fine, I won't judge.

 

[Lwieckowicz]

I'm stumbling here. We have 7 people murdered by a family member. Yet 4 young adults murdered by a stranger in Idaho capture our attention to many hundreds of magnitudes in comparison. I'm not saying it shouldn't (I am devastated by those senseless, vicious murders), but we write off domestic violence like it's nothing. I guess that's because we believe that domestic violence can't happen to us if we have 'good lives' yet stranger violence COULD happen to us so it's more random and shocking.

My point is that every life lost to violence matters equally. But we don't treat them as such.
(And don't get me going on indigenous lives!!! or lives of people who live high risk lifestyles!)

Thank you for reading my rant. I just needed to get that out of my system. My apologies.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that it’s frustrating when a case doesn’t garner the same attention as another. There’s a local case I have where an old man went missing walking in the woods, nobody cares because he’s old and has a wonky eye. A young teen went missing in the same town years ago and we had huge volunteer search teams for months, this guy hasn’t had one. And both involve mystery so it’s not that..it’s just that one person seemed more worth caring about to the masses.

 

[Lusitana]

I think this case is not getting as much attention because he killed himself too, there's nobody to pay for this awful tragedy. If he was still alive, I bet this would be much like the Watts case.

It looks like things probably got bad in 2020, Tausha stopped posting that year and it seems like they took pictures as a family in the Summer of 2022. It's clear that something bad happened recently and she couldn't take it anymore so asked for the divorce.

 

[Bbgiraffe]

I'm stumbling here. We have 7 people murdered by a family member. Yet 4 young adults murdered by a stranger in Idaho capture our attention to many hundreds of magnitudes in comparison. I'm not saying it shouldn't (I am devastated by those senseless, vicious murders), but we write off domestic violence like it's nothing. I guess that's because we believe that domestic violence can't happen to us if we have 'good lives' yet stranger violence COULD happen to us so it's more random and shocking.

My point is that every life lost to violence matters equally. But we don't treat them as such.
(And don't get me going on indigenous lives!!! or lives of people who live high risk lifestyles!)

Thank you for reading my rant. I just needed to get that out of my system. My apologies.

I find it interesting that you feel the Moscow situation gathered more media because it was a "stranger" when it seemed from the beginning that most outside observers assumed they were killed by someone they knew or had some relation to.... boyfriend, jealous roommate, the person who drove them home, etc. I am glad they caught the real perp because otherwise a lot of kid's lives would be ruined by the baseless speculation. And it is still ongoing in regard to the roommate who saw him. People saying the roommates might be alive if she had called 911 immediately, wondering if she will be charged with something or is involved somehow.

Almost no one thought it would be some random creep who stalked them for months then broke in and stabbed them all to death. To the point that instead of thinking "gee, it is probably not someone known to the girls since police haven't apprehended anyone yet" and instead thinking "this is a cold case, the police are incompetent and it will never be solved." So I think most people are actually VERY adverse to believing or thinking that a random crime will happen to them, and much more willing to believe that in order for murder to happen, there must be a relationship somehow to the victim.

While this case is a tragedy also, it is obvious this was a man who was losing everything. He had already lost his job, wife divorcing him, it seems they had a very nice house, expensive cars and living a very high standard of life, so losing everything in a short period of time was just too much for him.

 

[RememberingRyan]

My personal experience was that both are very much present and that the faith actually puts pressure on people to remain in toxic situations and make it work. It doesn't work. That's why it's such a big deal that the filing had actually happened in a family where the children were still all minors. That shows how broken this situation was, long before anyone died.

Agreed. Leadership in every ward I ever attended was aware of the abuse happening in our home and suppressed it and manipulated the children in our home into believing that living in these conditions was not only part of Heavenly Father's plan but that we - ourselves - chose our parents knowing that they would do those things, before we were even born. We experienced neglect and physical violence and it never got to the stage of being reported because the church community helped hide (and normalize) the abuse. Of course in this situation the wife had already reached the point of being willing to ostracize herself just to get away from him via divorce, so I suspect she was the one who had the courage to report in this instance. I just wish she'd found that opportunity sooner and that LE had taken it seriously from the start.

 

[RememberingRyan]

that is not what i said. i know it is. i was more commented on a previous poster's observation growing up LDS that they hugely focus on the family unit. I was saying the perfect family pix she posted also reminded me of so many DV victims perfect family pix.

organized religion is not my thing and super religious ppl are offputting to me so i dont doubt your assertions at all.

Yes, apologies, I was agreeing with your statement and was just adding that a lot of people hear about how much Mormons value or emphasize family and don't realize how prevalent abuse is within the church body.

 

[iamshadow21]

Agreed. Leadership in every ward I ever attended was aware of the abuse happening in our home and suppressed it and manipulated the children in our home into believing that living in these conditions were not only part of Heavenly Father's plan but that we - ourselves - chose our parents knowing that they would do those things, before we were even born. We experienced neglect and physical violence and it never got to the stage of being reported because the church community helped hide (and normalize) the abuse. Of course in this situation the wife had already reached the point of being willing to ostracize herself just to get away from him via divorce, so I suspect she was the one who had the courage to report in this instance. I just wish she'd found that opportunity sooner and that LE had taken it seriously from the start.

I see you, and I believe you. My experience with our individual ward leaders wasn't quite so toxic, but I know that's because I was fortunate. I knew the system I was a part of. I knew what it meant. I saw it all around me.

I can't help but be proud of the mother who took a stand and filed anyway. Both my mother, and these children's mother.

I'm so, so sad that their story ended as a result. That they won't be speaking their truth about their childhood in their forties, like I am.

It's just such a fudging waste.

 

[RememberingRyan]

I see you, and I believe you. My experience with our individual ward leaders wasn't quite so toxic, but I know that's because I was fortunate. I knew the system I was a part of. I knew what it meant. I saw it all around me.

I can't help but be proud of the mother who took a stand and filed anyway. Both my mother, and these children's mother.

I'm so, so sad that their story ended as a result. That they won't be speaking their truth about their childhood in their forties, like I am.

It's just such a fudging waste.

Amen

 

[iamshadow21]

Not that it matters at all... Just happened to be looking at her Facebook page. In 2018 she was definitely wearing her garments. In 2019/2020 it doesn't appear to me she is. He seems to still be wearing his in 2020? Any thoughts from someone who is/was LDS? Also if this is an offensive questions please tell me!

Log into Facebook

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.

www.facebook.com

People wouldn't know my mother, our housemate, or my brother wore garments. They're very thin (think a slip, or a very sheer nightgown), at least, the ladies' ones are. The men's are more like light tshirt fabric. The front neckline is cut along the line of a conventional workplace blouse or a t-shirt. The sleeves are very short, like a ladies cut tee with those little half cap sleeves, or nonexistent (think tank top). The bottom half, the leg ends higher than most shorts, like a boxer short level. The whole point of them is that they're close to the skin and they're not constantly peeking out from under your outerwear.

Basically, unless someone takes their top off, you wouldn't necessarily know. And if someone is doing something like going swimming, you'd never know whether they wear garments everyday, because nobody wears their garments in a pool.

 

[RememberingRyan]

Not that it matters at all... Just happened to be looking at her Facebook page. In 2018 she was definitely wearing her garments. In 2019/2020 it doesn't appear to me she is. He seems to still be wearing his in 2020? Any thoughts from someone who is/was LDS? Also if this is an offensive questions please tell me!

Log into Facebook

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.

www.facebook.com

I assume you drew that conclusion because you can see the sleeve hem under her tops in older photos, but I don't think we can assess accurately whether she has garments on in her most recent photos. Sometime around 2015-2016-ish the church did a huge survey on garments because sales were way down, and in 2019-ish (I believe) they started producing sleeveless garments (in addition to some other changes with fabrics and styles). She very well may just be wearing one of the new styles. Some people may not be aware that even though a lot of women do not start wearing garments until they are getting married, garments are associated with your Endowment covenant, not your marriage. It used to be that you could only receive your Endowment either when you were preparing for a mission (many women never go on one) or when you are preparing get married, but now I believe they have opened it up to any "temple worthy" adult who wants it. While someone might choose to not wear garments for a photo shoot (this isn't uncommon), I do not believe many would stop wearing them due to a divorce, dispute, or suffering at the hands of a spouse.

Divorce (generally) does not negate your endowment - it doesn't even cancel your sealing to your ex-spouse unless you explicitly pursue that through counsel and get it authorized by the church... and the church doesn't like to authorize this unless you are a woman who wants to be remarried (women can only be sealed to one man whereas men can be sealed to as many women as they marry), or if your spouse committed adultery. Generally if a member does completely stop wearing their garments when they were an adherent wearer previously, it is either an indication that they are doubting the gospel principles or that they have been instructed to abstain from wearing due to something the church considers an egregious sin (like adultery)

Editing to add that this question was not offensive at all and while I see that you deleted the original question I hope you don't mind that I am leaving my reply up because I do think it is useful information and that other readers may similarly be curious.

 

[adot0902]

I assume you drew that conclusion because you can see the sleeve hem under her tops in older photos, but I don't think we can assess accurately whether she has garments on in her most recent photos. Sometime around 2015-2016-ish the church did a huge survey on garments because sales were way down, and in 2019-ish (I believe) they started producing sleeveless garments (in addition to some other changes with fabrics and styles). She very well may just be wearing one of the new styles. While someone might choose to not wear garments for a photo shoot (this isn't uncommon), I do not believe many would stop wearing them due to a divorce, dispute, or suffering at the hands of a spouse.

Divorce (generally) does not negate your endowment - it doesn't even cancel your sealing to your ex-spouse unless you explicitly pursue that through counsel and get it authorized by the church... and the church doesn't like to authorize this unless you are a woman who wants to be remarried (women can only be sealed to one man whereas men can be sealed to as many women as they marry), or if your spouse committed adultery. Generally if a member does completely stop wearing their garments when they were an adherent wearer previously, it is either an indication that they are doubting the gospel principles or that they have been instructed to abstain from wearing due to something the church considers an egregious sin (like adultery)

Editing to add that this question was not offensive at all and while I see that you deleted the original question I hope you don't mind that I am leaving my reply up because I do think it is useful information and that other readers may similarly be curious.

Thank you for the answer. I did not know about the sleeveless garments (I am embarrassed to admit my only knowledge of LDS comes from a college religion class and that was pre 2019). That would actually explain what changed in the pictures I was looking at and could definitely mean she was still wearing garments.
I did delete because I remembered from that same class that garments are between you and God, so I didn't want to be asking questions that were disrespectful of your religion or turn her murder into "it was because of this religion". I do appreciate you taking the time to give me such a thoughtful and educated answer!

 

[RememberingRyan]

Thank you for the answer. I did not know about the sleeveless garments (I am embarrassed to admit my only knowledge of LDS comes from a college religion class and that was pre 2019). That would actually explain what changed in the pictures I was looking at and could definitely mean she was still wearing garments.
I did delete because I remembered from that same class that garments are between you and God, so I didn't want to be asking questions that were disrespectful of your religion or turn her murder into "it was because of this religion". I do appreciate you taking the time to give me such a thoughtful and educated answer!

I did not think you were accusing the religion as playing a role in the deaths, I interpreted it as inquiring about what might lead to someone not wearing their garments and whether it might be an indication of how recently the relationship soured.

 

[Helechawagirl]

I'm stumbling here. We have 7 people murdered by a family member. Yet 4 young adults murdered by a stranger in Idaho capture our attention to many hundreds of magnitudes in comparison. I'm not saying it shouldn't (I am devastated by those senseless, vicious murders), but we write off domestic violence like it's nothing. I guess that's because we believe that domestic violence can't happen to us if we have 'good lives' yet stranger violence COULD happen to us so it's more random and shocking.

My point is that every life lost to violence matters equally. But we don't treat them as such.
(And don't get me going on indigenous lives!!! or lives of people who live high risk lifestyles!)

Thank you for reading my rant. I just needed to get that out of my system. My apologies.

I think it’s because there’s no mystery to solve. We know who did it and why. We don’t feel threatened due to a random killer being on the loose. DGMW, their lives were equally important, but most of us can’t see that happening to us but we can imagine a stranger breaking into our home.

 

[Howl]

I think it's less about caring about one set of victims more than the other, and more that there's no mystery here. If it had come out that this family had been killed by a stranger from the outside...

The exact same time Gabby Petito and Brian Laundrie were in Moab being questioned by police over a DV incident, a married lesbian couple were shot to death in their tent at a campsite near Moab in broad daylight. As the US subsequently turned itself inside out trying to find Gabby, with breathless coverage all over MSM, this case of two murdered women was largely ignored and received only cursory, very local coverage.

It's blond girl syndrome -- if a victim is young, blond, attractive and female, MSM will fall all over themselves with nation wide coverage. The three young women murdered in Moscow, ID certainly fit this description.

Kudos to police who worked incredibly hard to identify the perps in Moab, UT and Moscow, ID.

 

[cvaldez1975]

My own personal experience with DV families is almost always that nobody was surprised. Sometimes there was some "After I thought about it......" but usually, it's not hard to read between the lines even if it wasn't obvious.

People can certainly abuse their families in other ways too, often financially.

Anecdote: Many years ago, I worked with a man who was getting divorced after a >20 year marriage, and one allegation his STBX was making was that he had physically abused her. Someone who worked there was good friends with one of his kids (actually, stepkids; she had been widowed when the kids were very young and he married her a few years later and raised them as is own) and the kids said there was no way their dad ever did anything like that. There were also several women there who had been in abusive relationships, not necessarily married, and all of them flat out said, "He didn't do this."

been there done that... my husbands ex also pulled that one.

i agree w your point, but im talking about those "pillar of the community" types who are monsters behind closed doors. usually ppl post a variety of things but when they only post perfect things it sets my hinky meter off

 

[cvaldez1975]

Looks like a family annihilator. It is one of the most common mass murders. Family annihilator are Ronald Gene Simmons, Chris Watts, Mark Barton, John List, George Banks, and James Ruppert.

anthony todt too

 

[cvaldez1975]

I'm stumbling here. We have 7 people murdered by a family member. Yet 4 young adults murdered by a stranger in Idaho capture our attention to many hundreds of magnitudes in comparison. I'm not saying it shouldn't (I am devastated by those senseless, vicious murders), but we write off domestic violence like it's nothing. I guess that's because we believe that domestic violence can't happen to us if we have 'good lives' yet stranger violence COULD happen to us so it's more random and shocking.

My point is that every life lost to violence matters equally. But we don't treat them as such.
(And don't get me going on indigenous lives!!! or lives of people who live high risk lifestyles!)

Thank you for reading my rant. I just needed to get that out of my system. My apologies.

i agree but dv murders are common and stranger murders not as much. both equally horrifying to me