ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 65

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It always concerns me when we take something mentioned in passing as fact and it evolves to become a given fact. I realize that a distant family member claimed that BK was a vegan a number of years ago but I don't believe that there has been any documented verification that he is still vegan or that it was anything more than a passing phase.
His extradition lawyer stated he was a strict vegan. MOO

 
I have no confidence in speculating motive, at this point, because we know so little of the evidence or how his mind works, imo. He could have been stalking any or all of them, he could have been set off by the student confrontation about his grading (kinda crappy of the professor, imo), or any of the other reasonable speculations talked about. All extremely plausible ideas, imo.

I still haven't let go of BK's expressed interest in cloud and/or digital technology in solving crimes. Seriously, the very thing used to identify and arrest him is what he wanted to do for a career. It could be a coincidence, or not.

I'm on the fence about everything, but if I had to lean one way, I'd lean towards BK targeting that house for the "type" of people who resided in it, rather than them as individuals. A house full of perfect people would capture the nation's attention. I think he obsessed over the planning, too. Not like a mental health symptom, but just that he had formulated a plan and went over every detail in an attempt to carry it out effectively. Jmo.

Can you even imagine trying to plan something so meticulously? It would almost be maddening. I bet he was glad when it was over, just so his mind could relax, but then...then he realized he'd left the sheath.
 
Most likely, you had chloral hydrate, not chloroform.

Chloral hydrate is no longer available for medical use, but was formerly frequently used in kids.

Chloroform works well in movies, but has never been clinically used on people.
Oh, I see. All I know is we only went to the doctor's office, not an e.r. He put something over my face, and I had vivid color dreams. When I woke up, my arm was in a cast.
 
That's possible because I haven't read every article and have only heard online speculation, mixed with comments that his current vegan diet may not be what he expected.

My apologies. I did a fast Google search AFTER I posted that—should have done it before. You’re right to question the online speculation, but here’s just one msm article out of many—you have to scroll down past the so-called ‘tasteless joke.’


Many reports of the Idaho jail planning a vegan diet for him, too. I think it’s safe to believe that they wouldn’t be going to this trouble unless he’d made a formal request.

You need to scroll down a long way for this, too.


However, looking back to your original point—I think that the Mad Greek shows so prominently in Google searches as vegan because of all the recent searches for: Mad Greek vegan. Its menu has vegan options, but is rather meat-oriented. I wonder if there’s a Wayback option for Google searches?
 
How do HVAC systems work if doors are left wide open? I know from bitter experience that if AC units are switched on while doors are left open they can make an impressive boom.

Based on my regional experience, if a door is open and the furnace is running, it will continue to run as long as the thermostat indicates it is below the set temperature but mine has never made any loud noises.
 
I feel compelled to respond. And I will say I completely disagree about amateur use of DSM. Let me preface this by saying that I have done field diagnostics for research that supports DSM. At the beginning of my psychiatric research, I thought the same ("Everyone is in DSM.")

But spend one day in a major psychiatric clinic OR in an inpatient unit and you'll see that it's not true. The public uses phrases from DSM all the time, as descriptors.

That's not the design of DSM nor should we be using it that way,

At any rate, BK's diagnosis (VSS) is a neurological disorder, which causes perceptual disturbance. The term "mentally ill" has little meaning, but in general, most psychiatrists will tell you they treat "mental illness" and that neurologists treat VSS and similar syndromes.

Can someone have both psychiatric symptoms AND a neurological disorder? Yes.

ANYWAY, last night I realized that I"m not interested in diagnosing BK, per se. So I resoundingly agree with you. I want to eliminate the neurological (and the upbringing part, if any) in order to contemplate just what it is that makes some into a mass murderer/wannabe serial killer.

And while we cannot and have not ruled out characterological disorders (personality disorders), that group of descriptors gets us closer to the problem of evil. Modern psychiatric and psychology are in big debates about the problem of evil - just as we are, here.

For me, what's left over when we rule out neurological and mental health disorders (if any) is the problem of what causes a BK. I've added in "life stressors" to my own personal rubric because mentally fragile people do behave in reactive ways sometimes, if they are pushed past their limits (which by definitions are not the same as for the rest of us).

I'm fine with "Evil" being the category to which we assign this small segment of horrible monsters. Does someone set out to be Evil? Does it just befall them? Is there some demon or spiritual entity that imposes itself on them (as implied by folk literature on Evil)?

We're left with this mysterious force or thing called Evil. But what is it?? Is it just a residual category of the rest?

Naturally, we are left pondering our fellow humans, but I do not believe that each person is capable of the evil that BK inflicted. Not at all. There are predisposing conditions and some of us (many of us) are incapable of doing what he did. I reject entirely the idea that *anyone* could suddenly become a BK (and by so doing, I also reject nihilism - because if true, if we can ALL be as Evil, then all hope is lost and everything is meaningless - just as BK claimed as a teenager) That make us all just "sacks of meat" capable of anything, without souls or anchors or inner meaning. Which is how he felt.

I have never felt that way. And when I'm dead, I hope someone points out that not only did I never plan or contemplate killing or violently attacking anyone, not in this lifetime. I've got a few years to go - but pretty sure I'm going to get through the rest of my life without becoming a mass murderer.

Most people do. We should be marveling at how most of us are NOT evil. I fear that young people may actually buy into this idea, which is so depressing (that we are all equally capable of Evil). I should also add that these are moral and spiritual questions, so everyone is entitled to their view.

But, I totally agree with you that the Mental Health Model (or the Physical Health Model) do not adequately explain BK and that he is a candidate to be called Evil. I might not have agreed 30 years ago, but I do now.

Anyway, the intent of this post is to cheer you up, because occasionally I go to the same place as you have. But I'm convinced that most of us are not capable of this degree of Evil - I just don't know why BK has been capable. Mental health issues/neuro issues do NOT explain it. I just need to pare it down to what remains.

Where does Evil reside?
Thanks for this thoughtful and well considered reply. I confess that the frustration of feeling that we cannot know what we need to know to prevent these tragedies gets to me.

Professor Katherine Ramsland, who has studied serial killers as much as anyone in the world, says she can't do it. In an interview with The New York Times, she disputed claims that people who knew the so-called BTK killer should have been able to recognize his evil:

"When I mentioned my thoughts to Ramsland, though, she disagreed that people who knew Rader could have connected the dots. Why would they? To the contrary, one reason Ramsland believes that Rader was able to keep his cover was that 'he grew up in a Germanic Midwestern family where there was not a lot of emotion. Like my family.'"

In her book about BTK - “Confession” - she posits "that some serial killers are more like the rest of us than common wisdom tells us. In the annals of serial killers, [BTK] is hardly the only one who held down a facade of normalcy while hunting his prey, but he managed it far longer than many others. There are many qualities, Ramsland writes, that ordinary people share with so-called monsters: 'overestimating our willpower, idealizing ourselves, daydreaming about power, indulging in secret behaviors that keep attracting us, deceiving others and keeping secrets.'"

I am confident that I won't kill anyone, but not because I'm not capable of it. I grew up in a religious family, and as I watch my kids grow I have come to appreciate what the discipline of a religion based upon a creator-god of infinite love, whose only command is that we accept and share that love, does to civilize us, to create and enforce family and community standards of good behavior, and thus to curb the animal behavior that would otherwise manifest itself more often among us.

There are other disciplines that have the same effect, of course; moral and ethical standards are built into many professional disciplines and unionized work communities. But IMO it is the discipline imposed by culture and its institutions and communities that keeps humans from killing and maiming each other when they're very angry.
 
Based on my regional experience, if a door is open and the furnace is running, it will continue to run as long as the thermostat indicates it is below the set temperature but mine has never made any loud noises.
Same in my experience. Perhaps if you have a system that cannot handle it, it might burn out? Never had the problem myself in Florida. Doors open just means the system works continuously and the humidity increases. Also, inside doors should be open not closed or you build up pressure in the room..but I have never heard of a loud boom because of that. MOO
 
My apologies. I did a fast Google search AFTER I posted that—should have done it before. You’re right to question the online speculation, but here’s just one msm article out of many—you have to scroll down past the so-called ‘tasteless joke.’


Many reports of the Idaho jail planning a vegan diet for him, too. I think it’s safe to believe that they wouldn’t be going to this trouble unless he’d made a formal request.

You need to scroll down a long way for this, too.


However, looking back to your original point—I think that the Mad Greek shows so prominently in Google searches as vegan because of all the recent searches for: Mad Greek vegan. Its menu has vegan options, but is rather meat-oriented. I wonder if there’s a Wayback option for Google searches?


I have a friend who is a strict vegan and she will not eat at anyplace that is not completely vegan because of cross contamination. She's very mindful of hidden meat and dairy products which is often found in margarines, breads and pastas but quite often rice is also cooked in broths.

When she travels or is someplace new, she will actually ask locals for recommendations for fully vegan establishments or prepare her own food.
 
Same in my experience. Perhaps if you have a system that cannot handle it, it might burn out? Never had the problem myself in Florida. Doors open just means the system works continuously and the humidity increases. Also, inside doors should be open not closed or you build up pressure in the room..but I have never heard of a loud boom because of that. MOO
Those are some super sealing doors there lol. I live in a 1950s ranch so we get air around the doors. :)
 
I had that as a child for a badly broken arm . It is very fast acting.

In a clinical setting, it would be but apparently, the concept of pouring some on a cloth and knocking someone out quickly may be a myth and it is my understanding it can be detected in an autopsy.

 
The word evil and coward, and coward again is accurate. In the dark, taking another person's life, is super coward. If the killer wanted to kill... take his own wrist. For the Idaho4, in the solace of one's bed, to be attacked by the killer and having to decipher what was going on, unimaginable. Now to make parents, friends, teachers, neighbors, siblings... even the delivery guy or bartender - - - shedding tears and responding to evil. Killers are insane, cross-wired, cowards. This killer needs to understand the sorrow and misery that death brings. IMO MOO JMO LMNOP
He is a coward and evil no doubt about that. I don’t think he has any remorse about killing and he does not care about the misery that he has caused. Dead, soulless eyes.
 
I have wondered whether or not the humiliation of the students confronting him about his grades (facilitated by the professor) was the spark moment that moved him from stalking to killing (MSM reports early on after his arrest with students from his class interviewed.) After the murders everyone got 100s, no more tough grades, and he seemed less uptight.

He was an outsider. He didn't have friends. He was playing the part of the high expectations TA. He was humiliated by all of these college students who partied and seemed to have the life he was stalking at the U of I Moscow. With these murders he scared them all---terrified them. Finally, he was in power again but for a different action.

That strikes me as a more logical trigger than all the spurned romance theories, which strike me as a bit too Hollywood and he has suffered relationship rejections in the past that don't seem to have set him off.
 
Guys from other frats wouldn’t be random to me in what I’m sure is a close knit Greek community in what is a relatively small state school in a relatively small town.

BK would be more than half a decade older than these Greek students and is not in a fraternity. If he found himself there AND was arguing with an actual member of the fraternity, he’d be asked to leave quick-like.
I went undergrad to a frat-heavy uni with a grad school. Fraternity parties didn't have entrance rules per se, but they weren't the type of place a grad student would choose to hang at, and a grad-student guy wouldn't necessarily feel welcome. More self-selection, if that makes sense.
 
Simple question, and sorry if it's already been discussed, but since we've been discussing BK's cellphone tracking:

WHY, if he allegedly went to the trouble to turn it off during the time the crime was committed, did he leave it on so he could be tracked going right back to the area at 9am the next morning? I mean maybe he was looking or listening for police activity on his phone, but it seemed like the whole theorized purpose of such a trip would be to see said activity in person????

It does seem very odd to me, too. He doesn't seem to be "eat up" with common sense, as my grandfather used to say. Based on what I saw online, his Criminology degree from DeSales covered causes of crime, ethics, research methods, criminal justice system and processes, statistics and data analysis. They do have forensics degrees but that doesn't seem to be what he took. So it looks like he didn't know a lot of investigative or forensic details that would keep him from getting caught.

It appears he wasn't concerned about his phone being seen in the area repeatedly before the crime, since it was seen so often. Maybe he thought as long as his phone didn't show during the murders, he would be free and clear. That would be short-sighted, but possible.

He may have needed the map feature right after the crime for that long, circuitous route in the wee hours. I can't think of any reason for that trip other than to dump evidence. The next morning, maybe he simply forgot to turn it off for that morning trip back.

We don't know that he actually avoided the area entirely after that. He could have put his phone in airplane mode each time. To me, it looks more guilty that he stopped being trackable in that area after the murders. Innocent people wouldn't think of being tracked at all. But, with a guilty mind, he might not have seen it that way.

JMOO
 
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