Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #161

[Gemmie]

I came across this easy-to-understand article about felony murder.

How It Is Possible to be Convicted of Murder Without Killing Anyone

The statute defining murder is very simple in Indiana. In order to convict someone of murder, the State must prove that: The Defendant; Knowingly; Killed; Another person. Can You Be Charged With Murder if You Never Killed Someone? This is by far the most common method in which individuals are...

banksbrower.com

Love your dumbed down article! I need dumbing down at times. lol This stood out for me:

It is important to understand, however, that it is possible to be charged with murder even if you are not the person that killed another.

I had no idea. So I suppose simply ordering them off the bridge (kidnapping) and them ending up murdered with their clothes removed (child molest?) that he could be found guilty even if he wasn't the one that actually did the killing. How interesting.

Source: How It Is Possible to be Convicted of Murder Without Killing Anyone

Clothing removed: FBI says their bodies ‘moved and staged’ in Delphi murders and the suspect took their clothing | WBIW

 

[FrostedGlass]

Love your dumbed down article! I need dumbing down at times. lol This stood out for me:

It is important to understand, however, that it is possible to be charged with murder even if you are not the person that killed another.

I had no idea. So I suppose simply ordering them off the bridge (kidnapping) and them ending up murdered with their clothes removed (child molest?) that he could be found guilty even if he wasn't the one that actually did the killing. How interesting.

Source: How It Is Possible to be Convicted of Murder Without Killing Anyone

Clothing removed: FBI says their bodies ‘moved and staged’ in Delphi murders and the suspect took their clothing | WBIW

Thanks. I like the dumbed down ones, too.

The Elkhart Four was a big case some years ago. Five teens broke into a house and the owner shot and killed one of them. All were charged with murder. I think we have a thread here on it.

 

[Gemmie]

Thanks. I like the dumbed down ones, too.

The Elkhart Four was a big case some years ago. Five teens broke into a house and the owner shot and killed one of them. All were charged with murder. I think we have a thread here on it.

I think they should teach HS students that so they'd know that they can be charged with murder just for agreeing to do some stupid thing with a friend. I'll bet that could put a stop to at least some of the crime that goes on. Being charged with murder for something someone else did is probably the furthest thing from their minds. MOO

I can't wait to hear more details against RMA to see if he was the one that actually did the murdering, or if it was one of the tentacles LE talks about this case having and he is being charged with it because of that.

 

[Springrain]

MOO I would be beyond shocked if others were involved at this point. I absolutely believe RA would be giving up names IMO if so. The evidence that we have available only points at him IMO.

 

[CurtMarcucci]

Agree that they couldn’t use the image alone to say it was RA. Lord knows many tried, resulting in thousands of side-by-sides showing up on social media.

But RA is the only known man to strongly resemble the image AND to have self-admitted to being on the bridge between 1:30 and 3:30 pm on 2/13/17. And to own a gun that matches the unspent bullet found next to Libby and Abby, who mentioned on their audio seeing their assailant with a gun.

I expect there is more evidence to be presented at trial.

jmo

After the 1/13 hearing, I went to the Delphi CVS and I saw a guy outside the store that looked like a larger version of RA.

 

[Marzipan]

I am the biggest critic of this le .. but i think there is not even 1% presence of doubt as to the identity of BG ..I knew that IF the real BG ever caught.. he will be someone no one heard of or suspected and will be caught because of his own doing


he is very short ..that alone is unusual
the teen girl witness said he was around her height ..signalling a short guy but they were bringing giants like kak and co ..simply not trusting the video or the witness ..now you have to reverse on that

Good to see you back @sandy_80. You were right all along, or at least it’s looking like it.

 

[somequestions]

His lawyer is getting the denial too.

Watch the lawyer do a 180 degree turn once the prosecution gives them the discovery document.

Rarely does the defendant tell the whole truth to his attorney.. and the attorney never askes point blank if he did it or not.

I have seen cases where the suspect is convicted by a jury and the evidence comes out later for the public to judge. Even when the evidence is overwhelming as to their guilt, the person will still say they are innocent of the crime. I think this is why it is so sad when someone who truly is innocent ends up in prison.

When the crime first happened, I thought it would be solved quickly. It wasn't.

When the arrest affidavit came out, I thought there would be at least one piece of solid evidence against Richard Allen. There wasn't. The unspent bullet is interesting, but I do not know enough about the research to come to a solid conclusion about what it means.

I know it is very unlikely police arrested the wrong person because the main evidence against Richard Allen has not been released. I guess you have to trust the police and prosecution that he is the right person. But I have my doubts sometimes. Only Richard Allen knows if he is the right person.

The thought has to cross your mind: What if police arrested the wrong person? What if the real killer is still out there?

 

[everybodhi]

One positive aspect of this case is that there's only one defendant. There are two victims and one crime scene. Part of the reason the Rhoden / PIke County murder trials have taken so long is because there were 4 killers, 8 victims and 4 crime scenes. Depending on how quickly they get everything transcribed, the pre-trial phase could go on for more than a year, possibly longer. Judges and prosecutors want to be careful in a DP case to avoid the risk of a mistrial or hung jury. That's why they're careful to give the defense attorneys as much assistance as possible without revealing their strategy. The state also must obey the gag order strictly, or also risk a mistrial. The news media and public likely won't get any new information about these crimes, the victims or the defendant until the trial.

You inspired me to check on the case of the murder of Kris Anderson by Theo Krah, a Navy Seal, back in the summer of 2016 which I had lost track of due to the years of waiting for something to happen.
He was finally convicted (second degree murder=15 to life) in July 2022 after years of continuances and preliminary hearings creating pages of court updates by the hard work of @Niner, updates that told us nothing but we know preliminary hearings are where lawyers argue over whether there is enough evidence for probable cause and what evidence can be used at trial.
Krah was arrested two days after the murder, as the years went by, I suspected his celebrity lawyer of dragging it out in order to keep him in the LA County jail as long as possible for “time served” before moving him to some worse CA prison because the evidence was overwhelming. Jmo. Kris was stabbed and beaten on a city street in front of an ATM after being followed there from the Santa Monica Pier by his killer. Cams everywhere.
Now his sentencing hearing has been postponed.

So, it can take 6 years to get to trial in a case of one man murdering one man.

 

[Salah11]

There was no reports of other men on that bridge that day. He was seen and he himself placed himself there.

No other mystery men seen with blood and mud caked over themselves.

 

[steeltowngirl]

Love your dumbed down article! I need dumbing down at times. lol This stood out for me:

It is important to understand, however, that it is possible to be charged with murder even if you are not the person that killed another.

I had no idea. So I suppose simply ordering them off the bridge (kidnapping) and them ending up murdered with their clothes removed (child molest?) that he could be found guilty even if he wasn't the one that actually did the killing. How interesting.

Source: How It Is Possible to be Convicted of Murder Without Killing Anyone

Clothing removed: FBI says their bodies ‘moved and staged’ in Delphi murders and the suspect took their clothing | WBIW

The specific charge being alleged against Allen applies when a defendant:

(2) kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit arson, burglary, child molesting, consumer product tampering, criminal deviate conduct (under IC 35-42-4-2 before its repeal [this involves deviate sexual conduct]), kidnapping, rape, robbery, human trafficking, promotion of human labor trafficking, promotion of human sexual trafficking, promotion of child sexual trafficking, promotion of sexual trafficking of a younger child, child sexual trafficking, or carjacking (before its repeal)[.]

Delphi Suspect Richard Allen Faces Murder Charges with Underlying Offenses, New Court Records Indicate

The suspect in the Delphi Murders is accused of a specific subsection of Indiana's murder statute which involves at least one underlying offense.

lawandcrime.com

 

[cbeagle]

I came across this easy-to-understand article about felony murder.

How It Is Possible to be Convicted of Murder Without Killing Anyone

The statute defining murder is very simple in Indiana. In order to convict someone of murder, the State must prove that: The Defendant; Knowingly; Killed; Another person. Can You Be Charged With Murder if You Never Killed Someone? This is by far the most common method in which individuals are...

banksbrower.com

Thanks, so it must be the case that IC 35-42-1-1 (2) is felony murder as described in that article, but I struggle how Indiana courts get that from the wording:

IC 35-42-1-1 (2) states (stripping out non-applicable parts, bold is from (2)):

A person who kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping commits murder, a felony.

2017 Indiana Code :: TITLE 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: ARTICLE 42. OFFENSES AGAINST THE PERSON :: CHAPTER 1. Homicide :: 35-42-1-1. Murder

Justia Free Databases of US Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

For example, Ohio has this:

No person shall cause the death of another as a proximate result of the offender's committing or attempting to commit an offense of violence that is a felony of the first or second degree

Section 2903.02 - Ohio Revised Code | Ohio Laws

codes.ohio.gov

So in Indiana it seems stronger than the death happened as a result of something a person is doing, "A person who kills another human".

 

[FrostedGlass]

Thanks, so it must be the case that IC 35-42-1-1 (2) is felony murder as described in that article, but I struggle how Indiana courts get that from the wording:

IC 35-42-1-1 (2) states (stripping out non-applicable parts, bold is from (2)):

A person who kills another human being while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping commits murder, a felony.

2017 Indiana Code :: TITLE 35. Criminal Law and Procedure :: ARTICLE 42. OFFENSES AGAINST THE PERSON :: CHAPTER 1. Homicide :: 35-42-1-1. Murder

Justia Free Databases of US Laws, Codes & Statutes

law.justia.com

For example, Ohio has this:

No person shall cause the death of another as a proximate result of the offender's committing or attempting to commit an offense of violence that is a felony of the first or second degree

Section 2903.02 - Ohio Revised Code | Ohio Laws

codes.ohio.gov

So in Indiana it seems stronger than the death happened as a result of something a person is doing, "A person who kills another human".

I looked at the cases of the Elkhart 4; all of them were charged with
35-42-1-1(2): Murder

From that case, I was aware that people could be charged for murder even if they didn't commit it. I didn't know it had a special classification until the discussion here.

Elkhart 4 life after lockup: Blake Layman one year later

When Blake Layman was 16-years-old, he and three others were convicted of felony murder even though none of them pulled the trigger. Dubbed the Elkhart 4, charged with murder when their friend was shot an

www.abc57.com

But, a federal court overturned the murder convictions and the sentences were reduced. Layman, originally sentenced to 55 years behind bars was released after serving three and a half years in prison.

 

[steeltowngirl]

RA reportedly told the conservation officer that he was on the trail between 1:30 and 3:30 p.m on 2/13/17 and that he parked at the ‘old Farm Bureau building’.

So… if RA was just being a helpful citizen when he came forward right after the murders, then why didn’t he come forward again when ISP asked for help in 2019?

• A car was parked in the abandoned CPS building parking lot between the hours of noon and 5:00 p.m. on February 13, 2017
  • We are looking for anyone who could give a description of vehicles that were in the parking lot during the time.

Indiana State Police releases clarification points on Delphi murder suspect

DELPHI, Ind. -- The Indiana State Police have released clarification points and number of tips received related to the 2017 murders of Abby Williams and Libby German in Delphi.Their Multi-Agency Task Forc

www.abc57.com

 

[phantomstrider]

There was no reports of other men on that bridge that day. He was seen and he himself placed himself there.

No other mystery men seen with blood and mud caked over themselves.

Idk how much I believe the muddy and bloody witness though I feel like that will be the easiest witness for the defense to argue against.

 

[Megnut]

RA reportedly told the conservation officer that he was on the trail between 1:30 and 3:30 p.m on 2/13/17 and that he parked at the ‘old Farm Bureau building’.

So… if RA was just being a helpful citizen when he came forward right after the murders, then why didn’t he come forward again when ISP asked for help in 2019?

• A car was parked in the abandoned CPS building parking lot between the hours of noon and 5:00 p.m. on February 13, 2017
  • We are looking for anyone who could give a description of vehicles that were in the parking lot during the time.

Indiana State Police releases clarification points on Delphi murder suspect

DELPHI, Ind. -- The Indiana State Police have released clarification points and number of tips received related to the 2017 murders of Abby Williams and Libby German in Delphi.Their Multi-Agency Task Forc

www.abc57.com

Oh, yes, did he volunteer where he had parked? And why he parked there...

And also, while admitting to being there that day, and during the exact minutes in question, on the very bridge where it began, how did he manage not to see the look-alike who would have had to be on the bridge at the very same time, and how, pray tell, did he manage not to see the girls? Glued to his phone, was he? While the girls passed him on the bridge, unnoticed. While his uncanny doppelganger shared oxygen with him?

Sheesh. At least cough up a bushy haired mountain man or an insatiable mountain lion.

What was his theory of the crime? Must have been just sick to have been right there but failed to prevent the girls from being hurt.

'Sif.

You'd think a person like that would give every interview he could. You know, helping LE narrow down the timeline and all.

He himself placed himself as the only man there.

Didn't see the girls, dintya? They saw you.

Welp.

Or as I prefer to spell it -- LWOP.

JMO

 

[arielilane]

PCA: He stated (in 2017) he was watching a stock ticker on his phone as he walked.

It will be interesting to see if LE’s findings confirm this information via RA’s phone. If RA watched a particular stock ticker that day it would have been earlier that day before the murders, IMO. Additionally, would he have phone reception on the trail in a remote location?

PCA: RA (in 2022) was interviewed again and stated he went out onto the Monon High Bridge to watch the fish.

 

[JosieMae]

Idk how much I believe the muddy and bloody witness though I feel like that will be the easiest witness for the defense to argue against.

True. Let's hope there is so much physical evidence that the eyewitness testimony won't even be needed.

 

[Bergmann]

Still going to need something compelling that places RA at the scene of the crime. And something less contestable than an unspent cartridge.

 

[girlhasnoname]

Still going to need something compelling that places RA at the scene of the crime. And something less contestable than an unspent cartridge.

How about eye witnesses, RA self confession to being on the bridge at the time Abby & Libby disappeared, being seen parking at the approx time the girls arrived, admitting to being on the bridge, being seen walking along the gravel road bloody and muddy back to his car backed into an abandoned business?

Also, we have RA confessing to owning and wearing clothing similar to BG on that day, which was confiscated at the time of search, his auto was towed for forensic investigation, a weapon he admits to owning, never loaning out, never stolen, never having been in the location of where the girls were found but yet an unspent cartridge lying feet between the poor girls..

I'd say there's a lot more than an unspent bullet cartridge. Plus, what we DON"T know about. I feel good about the States case.

#Justice4Abby&Libby

MOO

 

[FrostedGlass]

MS put up a new podcast yesterday in which attorney Shay Hughes talks about this case:
The Delphi Murders: A Conversation with the Hoosier Public Defender

At the 18mm, he addresses the felony murder charge. In his opinion, it doesn't make sense why they charged it; plain murder is easier to convict. However, the FM charge will make this LWOP or death penalty eligible if they prove aggravating circumstances.

His opinion is that they will likely not seek either. DP is very expensive to try and at RA's age, LWOP makes little sense. If I'm understanding what he said, prosecution still must prove RA murdered them.