ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 68

[10ofRods]

His wounds were later determined to be caused by sharp force injuries. End of page 1, PCA. JMO

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23564673/122922-affidavit-exhibit-a-statement-of-brett-payne_redacted.pdf

So are we now debating the difference between "sharp force injuries" and "edged weapon" injuries?

Neither of those appears as CoD. I assume that each autopsy was done by a different team in Spokane (this was a *lot* of work with many specialists involved) and that the language of each forensic pathologist could vary a little according to their training. They are doctors. They were trained various places (and perhaps work for different institutions as there are two medical schools in Spokane whose specialists could have been involved - we don't know how many different pathologists wrote reports, what their training was, or any of the details).

From my point of view, "sharp force injuries" is the more common term in the forensic literature. I will also add that an "edged weapon" injury is, IMO, a subcategory of sharp force injury. Using either term could be proper in an autopsy. The "edged weapon" tells more about the wound than "sharp force" which can include wounds that are with a different type of weapon (say, an ice pick). The margins of the wound upon visual inspection of the body will tell whether it was an edged weapon, but an edged weapon is in the category of sharp force injuries. See link below.

Forensic Pathology

So, perhaps Ethan had some incised injuries as well. Perhaps they all did, but were autopsied by different pathologists who chose different leading terms to summarize their findings. I will have no idea until I see all four autopsies side by side.

 

[TL4S]

Stab Wounds? Sharp Force Injuries?

Here's an authoritative source, explaining It better than my post:
Sharp Force Injury (From Medicolegal Investigation of Death ...https://www.ojp.gov › ncjrs › virtual-library › abstracts

"What are sharp force injuries vs stab wounds?
A sharp object thus cuts and divides the skin as it penetrates. A stab wound results from penetration of a pointed instrument into the depths of the body, causing a wound that is deeper than its length on the skin."

Sharp Force Injury (From Medicolegal Investigation of Death, P 159-201, 1980, by Werner U Spitz and Russell S Fisher - See NCJ-69730) | Office of Justice Programs

www.ojp.gov

I suspect that BK (alleged killer) encountered his female victims from the front, at least during the main attack, and maybe from above. Just guessing. But I suspect E, being more equal in size, could have caused a different kind of encounter for BK, maybe with BK swinging in a defensive (and I am NOT meaning justified self-defense!!) manner at first, perhaps slashing on approach, if that makes sense? I think the coroner stated they all had one fatal stab wound to the chest, iirc, but IF E had time to fight back at all, his arm reach alone might have warranted a different motion on BK's part, IMO.

 

[10ofRods]

To me, based on the scant information we have, I infer MG was the target based on:

1. LE stated early that this was a targeted attack;

2. MG told people she was being stalked;

3. BK repeatedly tried to get a response from MG on her social media account; and

4. Unlike the other victims who were stabbed to death, MG was also mutilated.

I think it's a reasonable inference at this point, at least for purposes of this conversation.

Who is MG?

Do you mean KG?

I thought LE walked back the "person was targeted" almost immediately. It was KG who told her parents she was being stalked (but if you read about that particular incident, it is my opinion and her parents' opinion that she was not). However, I do believe it's possible KG told others about the stalking (perhaps JD) and that may come out later.

 

[EBW321]

I have stranger DM's right in my regular inbox. That being said, I only have about 20 messages total after more than two years. I don't even see a request folder because I do not think anyone has requested to follow me (I do not restrict followers as I don't expect any or many). So I guess it depends on how it is set up.

Personally, I don't believe that Kaylee or Maddie restricted followers, especially considering how many thousands they got after they died.

I have stranger DM's right in my regular inbox. That being said, I only have about 20 messages total after more than two years. I don't even see a request folder because I do not think anyone has requested to follow me (I do not restrict followers as I don't expect any or many). So I guess it depends on how it is set up.

Personally, I don't believe that Kaylee or Maddie restricted followers, especially considering how many thousands they got after they died.

MOO- when my IG profile was public I received messages in my regular inbox from non followers (meaning people who didn’t follow me and I didn’t follow).. with my regular DM’s.

When I switched it to private, I no longer saw those messages in my normal DM inbox, they were sent to message requests and I received no notification of message request. (All of this depends on each individual persons profile settings on messages , even if private or public it can be adjusted as far as I know)…

Anyway I Purposely had to look in that message request folder to find new message request…after switching my account to private. It can be weeks or months after they were sent before I think to check my message request box.

Point is… I agree with the likelihood of the girls profiles being public, if he was using a normal IG account and that IG had not been restricted as possible spam account (which even if public profile, those go to message request box you don’t automatically see due to IG’s restriction on possible spam accounts) then the messages from BK most likely went to the girls normal DM inbox, where they would like be notified of the message he sent.

But like most people…. I believe the girls just ignored it because they didn’t know him. Did not think too much of it, besides the obvious reaction which would be this guy seems creepy… why is he messaging me? I’d assume they thought If they ignored it he would stop.

However…..

MOO - I think many are assuming the messages he sent were to KG. Which I personally think is an incorrect assumption. I believe the messages reportedly sent via IG were to X or M.
If it were X…. And it made her feel uncomfortable and she shared with E , I believe it’s very possible he messaged BK back and simply said “stop sending my GF messages”.

If it were M…. And she and K were hanging out and M mentions all these weird messages she keeps getting from this stranger… I also think that KG could have easily messaged him back and said “hi , this is M’s best friend K and I want you to stop messaging M bc it’s making her uncomfortable”

From family interviews of KG , my interpretation of their comments on her and her personality… the family repeatedly says how good of a friend she was. How she was always ready to help her friends with anything, was strong and not easily intimidated but cautious and aware of her surroundings and vulnerabilities of young women living in a house together.

If M told her about the messages… I think K would see it as more serious than M and think it needed to be handled and he needed to know he couldn’t keep sending messages to M. As a protective best friend stance.

In the people magazine article on the IG messages… correct me if I’m wrong here… it never mentions whether or not he ever received a message back. I think many are assuming there was no response back to him and I believe it’s possible there was… and that’s the point he truly cracked and decided to commit these horrific crimes.
Which is why I believe these IG messages are so important to the case and could help explain a lot of unanswered questions on motive.

If whoever received the DM’s through IG did in fact communicate back with BK in any form or rejection… or one of their friends or boyfriends sent a message asking BK to stop sending messages…. That could easily have been when stalking turned into planning a horrific murder.

Again. As always. MOO- very speculative thoughts and I could be completely wrong about all.

 

[CGray123]

The wording to describe E in the PCA was somewhat different than the three girls, I thought too. Sharp-force vs stab wounds are likely similar, but why the different wording, and why did the ME have to determine E's injuries when LE could apparently identify the wounds on the girls on sight?

It very much makes me wonder if E was possibly situated in a manner where LE couldn't see his injuries clearly (I'm thinking maybe laying between the wall and the bed, or something like that).

Regarding the redacted page in the PCA, I believe that the second page on the originally published PCA was actually the back side of Page 1, and was empty. It was removed from the updated version.

I inferred from the difference that E fought back, but was wounded in an artery in the struggle and bled out.

 

[Nila Aella]

So are we now debating the difference between "sharp force injuries" and "edged weapon" injuries?

Neither of those appears as CoD. I assume that each autopsy was done by a different team in Spokane (this was a *lot* of work with many specialists involved) and that the language of each forensic pathologist could vary a little according to their training. They are doctors. They were trained various places (and perhaps work for different institutions as there are two medical schools in Spokane whose specialists could have been involved - we don't know how many different pathologists wrote reports, what their training was, or any of the details).

From my point of view, "sharp force injuries" is the more common term in the forensic literature. I will also add that an "edged weapon" injury is, IMO, a subcategory of sharp force injury. Using either term could be proper in an autopsy. The "edged weapon" tells more about the wound than "sharp force" which can include wounds that are with a different type of weapon (say, an ice pick). The margins of the wound upon visual inspection of the body will tell whether it was an edged weapon, but an edged weapon is in the category of sharp force injuries. See link below.

Forensic Pathology

So, perhaps Ethan had some incised injuries as well. Perhaps they all did, but were autopsied by different pathologists who chose different leading terms to summarize their findings. I will have no idea until I see all four autopsies side by side.

I wasn't debating. I agree, both descriptions could mean the same, maybe with added slicing. Also, he could have been the forth victim and killed when the perp was tired. I do think that because they had to determine his injuries later it may indicate he was in a position that they could not determine his injuries before autopsy. JMO

edit. grammar

 

[10ofRods]

You can see the difference in the three statements here = only Es was 'later identified' nature of wounds and also only E is not mentioned as either on floor or bed.

'As I approached the room, I could see a body, later identified as Kernodle's laying on the floor. Kernodle was deceased with wounds which appeared to have been caused by an edged weapon'

'Also in the room was a male later identified as Ethan Chapin, Chapin was also deceased with wounds later determined (autopsy report provided by CME dated 15 Dec 2022) to be caused by sharp force injuries.'

Then upstairs =
'As I entered this bedroom, I could see two females in the single bed in the room. Both G and M were deceased with visible stab wounds.'

My only takeaway from this is that the injuries of the women were immediately observed to be stab wounds/edged weapon injuries) whereas the LEO who wrote the PCA could not see Ethan's injuries while Ethan was still present in his original position in the room where he died.

And, again, my view of "sharp force injuries" is that it is a taxonomic category that includes edged and non-edged stabbings, also incisions, etc. It is a general category, the others are more specific (and there are further subdivisions to be made as the autopsy goes on - each victim's wounds should tell a lot about what actual weapon was used, especially if they used forensic radiology).

Ice pick? Sharp force injury. Slash? Sharp force injury. Stab? Sharp force injury. Carved with broken glass? Sharp force injury.

And so on.

 

[CSIDreamer]

why did it take so long for them to decide how E was killed , if the others were concluded as stabbing by knife quickly.
and why was that page redacted from the PCA

Pretty sure the cause of death was formally listed as stab sounds for all 4. Stab wounds can have different characteristics. The COD was released for all 4 simultaneously. JMO

 

[YaYa_521]

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[Strong1]

So do we know for a fact there was a connection between BK and the victims? I know there was talk of him messaging one of the victims and about him possibly eating at the Mad Greek where two of them worked. But there is so much speculation being thrown around it's hard to tell what is fact and what is rumor.

 

[jepop]

Thanks! I enjoy your posts, as well, and I agree, the picture will become clearer as more information becomes available. And you're right, I do want to know his initial plan. In my mind, planning the murder of one person is vastly different than planning four. Single vs mass. Sort of random, but if the tapatalks were truly BK, even that many years ago, I kind of wonder if LE suspected he might kill himself if he knew they were coming for him, especially if he was in WA when they came for him.

Yea, LE were very careful to keep him in the dark, that's something to think over. I don't know why, but I get the feeling he wasn't really a danger to others in that immediate period post the murders, as if he had done what he'd planned. LE kept an eye on him from end November perhaps but seemed to not be too worried, so could be they were more concerned re suicide than harm to others at that time. You know, it's probably going to be the digital data that might provide clues to mass plan vs single? I do agree that if he had only been targetting one, it's hard to imagine the other three being collateral, my thoughts there though are that if it was just one of floor 3 roomates, and he was so committed to going through with it that night then it's not beyond the realms of possibility that he killed the second, given the weopen. In that case maybe he surprised himself. And again with the XK and EC downstairs? I agree that seems unplausible. But this just goes in circles as to what his mind set was, or what transformations he may have been undergoing in those few sinister minutes. His experience when I try to imagine it is so entirely other to me. You know - stepping into his shoes is not possible. MOO .

 

[EBW321]

These are pretty much my thoughts, as well.

MOO- I agree with this. Infatuation may have started with one girl… but once he began stalking her and the house… everyone there represented the same thing to him and they all became targets.

 

[CSIDreamer]

So do we know for a fact there was a connection between BK and the victims? I know there was talk of him messaging one of the victims and about him possibly eating at the Mad Greek where two of them worked. But there is so much speculation being thrown around it's hard to tell what is fact and what is rumor.

No, we do not at this time.

 

[maskedwoman]

I have a goldendoodle and she does not shed at all. I’m sure a hair or 2 could be found around but I’ve actually never seen one.

This subject has cracked me up. I just got curious enough to google "do goldendoodles shed" and the answer was unanimously healthy doodle do shed, but not much. Webmb talked about them related to allergies and said they shed less and produce less dander than other dogs. Apparently, they do not always look like the adorable Murphy, which surprised me. I googled images too and some of them looked like Murphy and some looked scruffy like a Steif Bear. Yes, I drive my family nutty. LOL MOO

 

[Miss Jennifer]

So do we know for a fact there was a connection between BK and the victims? I know there was talk of him messaging one of the victims and about him possibly eating at the Mad Greek where two of them worked. But there is so much speculation being thrown around it's hard to tell what is fact and what is rumor.

All hearsay at this point, and with the extended gag order in place, I expect things to be quiet until June 26th.

I take mainstream media articles citing undisclosed sources with a grain of salt. They thrive on sensationalism. MOO

 

[CGray123]

Who is MG?

Do you mean KG?

I thought LE walked back the "person was targeted" almost immediately. It was KG who told her parents she was being stalked (but if you read about that particular incident, it is my opinion and her parents' opinion that she was not). However, I do believe it's possible KG told others about the stalking (perhaps JD) and that may come out later.

Yep. KG, not MG - thank you!

The police did walk it back - sorta. The press release dated 11-30-2022 contains the following obfuscatory statement:

"Regarding the interview with Latah County Prosecutor Bill Thompson, we feel his responses were messaged to support the implication that new information had been released. Specifically, generalized statements regarding the potential of targeted victims and the involvement of drugs were redefined into an affirmative answer.

At this time, there is no change or new information in this case, and references otherwise would be inaccurate. We ask the public to refer to the Moscow Police Department website for any updates on the investigation."

I could be wrong, of course, but I'm still going with KG (thanks again) as the target of BK's premeditated attack, based on the factors I listed. The others were incidental, not premeditated [because they were killed in the course of other crimes, the charges for their deaths will still be First Degree Murder - as Felony Murder.].

 

[scottishgal]

thanks to those who replied on my queries

I now have an elaborate bed time routine , of locking all doors, checking window handles, and then pushing furniture or boxes against sliding door, garage back door ....setting little (compassionate not too painful, but painful enough to make the intruder known) traps like Kevin from Home alone ...my husband veers between laughing and looking at me like I am crazy ...am I the crazy one or is it the world we live in

Good night all and happy weekend

 

[SRWCF]

So do we know for a fact there was a connection between BK and the victims? I know there was talk of him messaging one of the victims and about him possibly eating at the Mad Greek where two of them worked. But there is so much speculation being thrown around it's hard to tell what is fact and what is rumor.

Both of those stories came from People magazine, so I guess it depends on whether or not you choose to believe what they write. I honestly don't have reason to believe People publishes lies, but I'm keeping an open mind.

 

[Sundog]

To me, based on the scant information we have, I infer MG was the target based on:

1. LE stated early that this was a targeted attack;

2. MG told people she was being stalked;

3. BK repeatedly tried to get a response from MG on her social media account; and

4. Unlike the other victims who were stabbed to death, MG was also mutilated.

I think it's a reasonable inference at this point, at least for purposes of this conversation.

I haven't seen any reporting that Maddie was being stalked, only some reports that perhaps Kaylee was being stalked.

In addition, at this point we don't know for sure if BK tried to contact one of the victims on their social media accounts, so far not confirmed by LE, just rumored in MSM.

We also have no LE or MSM reporting that Maddie was mutilated when murdered. I think that speculation developed from some remarks that SG (father of Kaylee) may have made and it was interpreted by some MSM that way. I don't recall we ever saw or heard this stated by the coroner or ME.

It's also possible the house on King Road was ultimately targeted (and not necessarily the individuals who lived there), as a location that BK selected to to carry out a mass murder with notoriety to follow.

JMO.

 

[EBW321]

So do we know for a fact there was a connection between BK and the victims? I know there was talk of him messaging one of the victims and about him possibly eating at the Mad Greek where two of them worked. But there is so much speculation being thrown around it's hard to tell what is fact and what is rumor.

MOO-

I’ve been responding to posts here this afternoon on all of that thinking the same thing. Am I responding on my thoughts about the people magazine article and reports on MG restaurant confirming he came in a few times as facts when it could just be speculation and unconfirmed?..

In my opinion the new information from People about the IG messages and from information about MG restaurant source confirming that BK did come in…, should still be considered as speculative till LE/Court confirms. Which they aren’t right now due to gag orders.

I think it’s very risky for people to report things if there is no truth to it. Same goes for MG restaurant informant.

With all the gag orders right now. It’s unfortunate that the public has to wonder if any of the MSM information on the case released is accurate or factual or more speculation.

MOO- I tend to think there is some truth in a lot of it… and have to remind myself that MSM doesn’t mean it’s confirmed or fully factual.