MA - Lindsay Clancy, Strangled 3 Children in Murder/Suicide Attempt, Duxbury, Jan 2023

[GraceVPrice]

Mickey was talking about her cousin, not Lindsay Clancy.

Oh thank you, I didn't get that from the post. My mistake.

 

[SpideySense]

I've said it before and I'll say it here again. The problem with non-clinicians using the DSM is that they miss the nuance.

You are incorrect. Women quite often can have PPD that could become PPP. What is ruled out in PPP is a unipolar depressive episode, NOT PPD. A "short psychotic disorder" (the classification for PPP in the DSM) is NOT the same as a Brief Psychotic Episode (which is its own disorder).

Here is an article from Massachusetts General Hospital, where Lindsay was employed (per MSM) about why psychiatrists wanted it to be included as its own disorder in the DSM 5.

Essential Reads – Postpartum Psychosis: A Diagnosis for the DSMV - MGH Center for Women's Mental Health

In a recent article, Margaret Spinelli, MD describes a proposal to the DSM-V committee of the American Psychiatric Association in 2020 arguing for the inclusion of postpartum psychosis as a unique diagnosis...

womensmentalhealth.org

And here's another medical paper that describes it.

https://jag.journalagent.com/ejm/pdfs/EJM-62207-REVIEW_ARTICLE-ISIK.pdf

“Brief Psychotic Episode” and “short psychotic disorder” don’t exist in the DSM, so I don’t know what you’re referencing.

Mood disorders like Major Depressive Disorder currently have the onset signifier in the DSM of “peripartum onset.” Psychotic disorders like Brief Psychotic Disorder currently have the onset signifier of “postpartum onset.”

Peripartum major depressive disorder with psychotic features is a distinct diagnosis from Brief Psychotic Disorder with postpartum onset. I don’t think that’s a controversial statement.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

“Brief Psychotic Episode” and “short psychotic disorder” don’t exist in the DSM, so I don’t know what you’re referencing.

Mood disorders like Major Depressive Disorder currently have the onset signifier in the DSM of “peripartum onset.” Psychotic disorders like Brief Psychotic Disorder currently have the onset signifier of “postpartum onset.”

Peripartum major depressive disorder with psychotic features is a distinct diagnosis from Brief Psychotic Disorder with postpartum onset. I don’t think that’s a controversial statement.

MDD with peripartum onset is not the same as PPD. Peripartum means during pregnancy. Postpartum means after childbirth. They are different and describe different things.

Postpartum Psychosis: Updates and Clinical Issues

The authors focus on the epidemiology of postpartum psychosis, its clinical presentation, etiology, treatment, and strategies to prevent its recurrence.

www.psychiatrictimes.com

Additionally, what I was saying is that there are a number of "short psychotic disorders" which is where postpartum psychosis is categorized. "Short psychotic disorder" is not a diagnosis. Lindsay reportedly suffered from postpartum psychosis (which is a symptom postpartum). There has been no mention of Brief Psychotic D/O with postpartum onset. What that means is that we don't know if her psychotic symptoms were in the context of a Brief Psychotic D/O or of something else, such as pre-existing schizophrenia or bipolar disorder, both of which have higher than general population changes of psychosis in the postpartum period.

 

[Puzzles]

<modsnip - rude>

Three children are dead.
A father is devastated.
A mother is devastated now, or will be when/if she understands what she has done.

<modsnip>

 

[JoeFromLB]

Very difficult to find any reliable information on her own injuries or current condition in the hospital. I guess we'll just have to wait.

 

[GRT]

This feels very victim blamey to me. She had PPP and its all chemical. It has nothing to do with her Type A personality.

I think we have to be careful not to paint the killer as the victim. True, she may well have been suffering from a psychosis, but the only true victims here are the ones whose lives were snuffed out beneath her hands.

She may have an illness but being sick and being a victim are two very different things. MOO

Sick or not, she's been accused of killing the little ones and they didn't have a chance of standing up to her. They were sitting ducks. Can you imagine the horror the older must have felt as they struggled agaisnt their own mother? Their murderer? It's unfathomable to me.

We have to remember and honor them, first and foremost. I'm sorry she developed PPP, but I'm much sorrier for her husband and her little ones.

 

[iamshadow21]

<modsnip - rude>

Three children are dead.
A father is devastated.
A mother is devastated now, or will be when/if she understands what she has done.

<modsnip>

<modsnip - quoted post snipped>

We're all grieving this beautiful family. <modsnip> Let's take a breath, and remember these children. Breathe out. Hug your kids, or your cat, or your partner. We'll get through this.

 

[Ilex]

Way back in the 90s, I had a job (state-funded) where any at-risk mother/baby was flagged and I did screenings to see who needed/wanted to be followed with in-home case management. Our clinic was mostly recent immigrants with poor access to available services. I usually ended up staying longer with the teen moms and with those whose child(ren) had chronic medical conditions. The criteria were pretty loose so it was great to be able to offer services to just about anyone who wanted them. I'd drive all over a large metropolitan area to make visits and in some cases try and track down people whose charts came across my desk. Sometimes it was frustrating (and sad) but also very rewarding.

I myself got a nurse home visit when my 2nd child was (2009) born with meconium aspiration - I think it was maybe 48 hours after discharge. Everything was fine but my gosh, it was so reassuring to know that someone was just checking and making sure that we were okay. It just seems to make so much sense (ethically and likely financially in the long run) to have even a professional support person pop by, make sure everything is okay, and refer to services if needed. The US is so behind on this compared to many places, and our maternal morbidity/mortality rates are shockingly high.

Those home visits were really helpful. You can assess things in a home that might not be seen in an office visit. Nothing like walking in and seeing every window covered with cardboard to let you know something is off. Someone can present very well in a 30 min office visit but be falling apart.

 

[Stunned]

I wonder what the statistics are of mothers who murder their own children? I am aware of Andrea Yates. Diane Downs. Susan Smith. Lori Vallow. Now Lindsay Clancy.

The term for parents who murder their children is "fiacide". A study by Brown University says that parents murder their own children about 500 times per year. That's more than a murder per day. Fathers (57%) were slightly more likely to kill their own children than mothers. From the study:

"Close to three-quarters (72 percent) of the children killed were age 6 or younger. One-third were infants (children less than 1 year of age). Only about 10 percent of children killed were between ages 7 and 18.... Male children were more likely to be killed (58.3 percent) than female children. About 11 percent of victims were stepchildren...

Among offenders, while fathers were about equally likely to kill an infant, they were more likely to be the alleged murderer of children older than a year, especially when the children were adults (fathers were the offenders in 78.3 percent of those cases). Overall, fathers were the accused murderer 57.4 percent of the time.

The researchers found that the most common method of killing was with “personal weapons,” such as by the beating, choking, or drowning of victims. Parents used these means in 69 percent of murders of infants.

Analysis: 32 years of U.S. filicide arrests

Over the last three decades U.S. parents have committed filicide — the killing of one’s child — about 500 times every year. The horrifying instances are often poorly understood, but a recent study provides the first comprehensive statistical overview of the tragic phenomenon. The authors also...

news.brown.edu

I have a hard time seeing Andea Yates and now Lindsey Clancey listed with the others. The others were NOT deep in PPS.

 

[fred&edna]

Postpartum Support International has a great deal of info on these conditions. One of the board members works for the law firm that represented Andrea Yates. It appears there's a chapter in every state but I don't know how active they are.

Learn More | Postpartum Support International (PSI)

Learn about the symptoms of perinatal mood or anxiety disorder, such as postpartum depression.

www.postpartum.net

 

[mickey2942]

I hope that women and people who are parenting and feel overwhelmed are getting the help that they need. The biggest problem I see, is that while this mother was in treatment, so many others don't get treatment because of the cost, and ongoing stigma about asking for help.

I don't know the answer, are providers supposed to have a "knee jerk" reaction based on this anomaly and recommend removal of children from mothers who have PPP? That is the problem with patient centered care, it doesn't always look at the "big picture". But, who would seek help if they thought that meant they could have their kids removed?!

 

[Stunned]

I hope that women and people who are parenting and feel overwhelmed are getting the help that they need. The biggest problem I see, is that while this mother was in treatment, so many others don't get treatment because of the cost, and ongoing stigma about asking for help.

I don't know the answer, are providers supposed to have a "knee jerk" reaction based on this anomaly and recommend removal of children from mothers who have PPP? That is the problem with patient centered care, it doesn't always look at the "big picture". But, who would seek help if they thought that meant they could have their kids removed?!

Having their children removed could be a major obstacle to getting help. It could also be a lifesaver for both the parent and child/children.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Having their children removed could be a major obstacle to getting help. It could also be a lifesaver for both the parent and child/children.

It could also mean life-changing trauma for children to be taken away from a parent who has not harmed them on the off-chance that they may.

 

[fred&edna]

More Interesting info on postpartum psychosis from Mass General Hospital Center for Women's Mental Health. Is this where she was receiving treatment? I was curious about the onset period and recurrent psychotic episodes, etc.

Long-Term Outcomes of Postpartum Psychosis: What is the Risk of Recurrence? - MGH Center for Women's Mental Health

Many women who have suffered from postpartum psychosis (PP) wonder about their long term prognosis.

womensmentalhealth.org

Gilden and colleagues conducted a literature search and meta-analysis of longitudinal studies of postpartum psychosis and aimed to calculate the rate of recurrence, as well as elucidate whether recurrent episodes occurred during a subsequent postpartum period or were unrelated to pregnancy. They included six studies of 645 patients in their meta-analysis, and follow up periods ranged from 11-26 years.
Researchers divided recurrence into 3 categories:

• (a) at least 1 subsequent postpartum episode but no episodes outside the postpartum period
• (b) at least 1 subsequent episode outside the postpartum period, and
• (c) no subsequent episode of mania, psychosis, or severe depression (sustained remission)

In estimating risk of recurrence, they observed the following:

• 43.5% (279/645) of women had “isolated postpartum psychosis,” meaning either they experienced PP once and had no recurrence (36.1% of total sample), or experienced psychosis more than once but exclusively during postpartum periods (7.1% of total sample).
• For 56.7% of women (366/645) their first postpartum psychosis episode was the onset of a lifelong severe psychiatric disorder, with episodes of mania, psychosis, or major depression with psychosis occurring outside of the postpartum period.
• Of the overall sample, 64% (412/645) women with first-onset PP experienced a recurrence at some point during the follow up period (mean of 16 years).
• 36% had no recurrence, (95% CI, 32.3% to 39.7%) and remained in remission for duration of follow up which was a mean of 16 years

 

[SpideySense]

I hope that women and people who are parenting and feel overwhelmed are getting the help that they need. The biggest problem I see, is that while this mother was in treatment, so many others don't get treatment because of the cost, and ongoing stigma about asking for help.

I don't know the answer, are providers supposed to have a "knee jerk" reaction based on this anomaly and recommend removal of children from mothers who have PPP? That is the problem with patient centered care, it doesn't always look at the "big picture". But, who would seek help if they thought that meant they could have their kids removed?!

Here’s my experience FWIW. Back in 2007 during one of my OB/GYN check-ups when my second child was about 3 months old, I reported to my doctor that I might be experiencing PPD. I didn’t feel depressed or sad, but I noticed that I would sit and think about a problem in my life for like 4 hour stretches and that something wasn’t right. She gave me the number of an in-network psychiatrist who specialized in postpartum disorders and told me to call her right away. I did, and began sessions with her within a week, I believe. I was diagnosed with mild postpartum Anxiety Disorder NOS and prescribed medication that was safe for breastfeeding.

My recollection is that all the professionals involved treated it with a “this cannot wait” sense of urgency. My psychiatric sessions and medications were somehow linked by the physicians to my postpartum care and covered by insurance.

I was/am a huge believer in attachment theory and the importance of preventing mother/infant separations during the first critical year. At the same time, I was aware that a mother who “wasn’t there” emotionally due to anxiety or depression was no better and possibly even worse for an infant than a mother who was physically absent.

I know I would have done whatever my psychiatrist recommended and taken whatever medication she prescribed, even if it meant temporary or supervised separation from my kids. It felt like, “I have no idea what’s going on with me other than I’m not myself, so it’s time to hand over the reins to the professionals.”

 

[SophieRose]

I find myself very conflicted about this case. On one hand, I am pleased that empathy is being offered to a perpetrator who was clearly in the throes of mental illness. I'm grateful that PPP is being thoughtfully destigmatized by many professionals and people who have gone through it themselves.

On the other hand, I'm left wondering who 'deserves' a near-unanimous display of empathy and support after murdering three children. Would a murderer who isn't a perfect example of what present-day American society typifies as ideal receive less empathy? Would there be universal support for a murderer who was nonwhite, who was poor, who was a single mother with no husband stridently defending her in the press, who, instead of working in a caregiving job, was perhaps a sex worker? What about an illegal immigrant? You may say it's a moot point because that isn't the case being discussed, or that I can't predict how people would react in another scenario. But I've rarely seen any empathy for women who kill and discard their infants, who lay unidentified for years. When the infants are identified and the mothers arrested, there is celebration, not mourning. But who knows if in addition to PPP, those mothers weren't experiencing homelessness, abuse, or many other traumas.

I hope that the empathy offered to this woman is carefully considered, and that everyone so readily offering it explores their beliefs on when matricide is a 'tragedy' and when it's a crime.

CA- S.F. mother accused of killing 2 daughters recently lost a son in childbirth, seemed depressed and paranoid

https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/sf-mother-murder-charge-17726958.php The San Francisco mother charged with killing her two daughters days before Christmas in their Bayview-Hunters Point home appeared to be struggling with her mental health after losing a son during childbirth months...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Luna20]

Rusty Yates was on Newsnation this evening to talk about this case. It was heartfelt and he spoke about the lack of awareness of PPDP.

He is divorced and has a 14 year old son. He still talks to Andrea.

 

[BrownRice]

Rusty Yates was on Newsnation this evening to talk about this case. It was heartfelt and he spoke about the lack of awareness of PPDP.

He is divorced and has a 14 year old son. He still talks to Andrea.

Thanks for this. I watched a clip on YouTube. I’m glad to see Rusty has moved on and has a son.

I think most of us here are old enough to remember this case and just the shock and horrificness of imagining what those children suffered. I’ve always held a place in my heart for both of them. I can’t imagine the horror Andrea must feel. It’s probably worse than what the children experienced since she relives it daily.

Rusty received a lot of blame for continuing to impregnate her and leaving her alone. And forgiving her.

 

[Luna20]

Thanks for this. I watched a clip on YouTube. I’m glad to see Rusty has moved on and has a son.

I think most of us here are old enough to remember this case and just the shock and horrificness of imagining what those children suffered. I’ve always held a place in my heart for both of them. I can’t imagine the horror Andrea must feel. It’s probably worse than what the children experienced since she relives it daily.

Rusty received a lot of blame for continuing to impregnate her and leaving her alone. And forgiving her.

So true! I can’t imagine the hell she lives in even on her good days. We are farther along in Mental Health awareness than at that time when people were demonizing her, but still not where we should be.

It’s sad that she lives medicated going back and forth between the hospital and the center.

 

[mls128]

Anyone think it’s odd the silence on this case and the fact that they’ve yet to charge her with murder of the third baby? It makes me think she isn’t going to make it.