Recovered/Located UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon & Newborn, left a broken down car on motorway, Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023

[dotr]

Feb 1 2023

Noting this o/t news as it may affect how and if the couple are travelling around, and possible more eyes to spot the mpers. fwiw, imo.

Day of disruption in UK as hundreds of thousands join strike

LONDON (AP) — Thousands of schools in the U.K. closed some or all of their classrooms, train services were paralyzed and delays were expected at airports Wednesday in what’s shaping up to be the biggest day of industrial action Britain has seen in more than a decade, as unions step up pressure...

ca.finance.yahoo.com

''LONDON (AP) — Thousands of schools in the U.K. closed some or all of their classrooms, train services were paralyzed and delays were expected at airports Wednesday in what’s shaping up to be the biggest day of industrial action Britain has seen in more than a decade, as unions step up pressure on the government to demand better pay amid a cost-of-living crisis.

The Trades Union Congress, a federation of unions, estimated that up to half a million workers, including teachers, university staff, civil servants, border officials and train and bus drivers, will walk out of their jobs across the country.

More action, including by nurses and ambulance workers, is planned for the coming days and weeks''

 

[infinit]

<modsnip - rude> Plus, why buy a tent and cart it around? They have a newborn, that's more than enough to deal with <modsnip - rude>

<modsnip - rude> I also think the baby has already been in danger to be honest, or at least put at risk. Sure, babies are resilient but having to suffer by being on the move 24/7 without a safe (and sanitary) stable place of residence isn't good.

I'm still amazed how they've been to 5 or 6 towns, been spotted numerous times, used shops, taxi's and other places yet either the police haven't bothered to arrive in time or the person reporting the sighting has left it too late allowing them to move on. It seems important to the police but not good enough for them to actually make a national song and dance about it!

<modsnip - not victim friendly>

I agree with you, I get the feeling that initially they wanted to ensure that they had appropriate support e.g. housing, perhaps mental health (I am guessing), any due-dil that is required due to his conviction. The wording was very much "You're not in trouble, we just want to check mum and baby are OK."

As time has gone on the tone seems to have shifted a bit to focus on the baby, perhaps out of concerns that it has been exposed to unsafe conditions e.g. the temperatures outside.

I'm not sure what's the right approach really without a public appeal when they seem to be using cash, no phone and moving large distances - Very hard for the Police to track them covertly.

JMO.

 

[OceanElix]

I am deeply concerned at the approach taken by LE in this case.
Firstly they announced public that this little homeless family who are possibly living in a tent, unlikely, but that is what they have implied repeatedly, are carrying large sums of cash thus exposing them to every grifter out there.

They even provided a description of the tent.

How easy it would be for someone to attack them and rob them.

Neither Constance's background nor Mark's crimes as a 14 year old , for which he has served his time appear even slightly relevant to their current situation.

Adding such a large reward makes them a target.
Quite honestly I have never felt so horrified by an action taken by the Met, well, maybe that is an exaggeration... but this is not okay by any stretch of the imagination.

Missing?
Are they?
Are they adults or children?
A 35 year old woman with a partner 13 years her senior who may or may not have prior experience of parenthood and childbirth are not the same as two 12 year olds in a similar predicament.
Who is missing them, exactly?
Who, if anybody reported them as 'missing'?
HUNTED is the more appropriate term IMHO and it is morally and ethically wrong, also IMHO

The action taken by several police forces around the country has not been taken lightly, they are not required to disclose every detail to the general public as to why such actions are being taken but you can rest assured, the danger is very real.
The police are desperate to find the family before a death or deaths occur, a serious risk.

<modsnip - personalizing>
The police are trying to help. It has been raised as carefully as possible earlier in the threads regarding social services and the conviction.
There is a risk, the family need help, the police need help.
<modsnip>

 

[Obergine]

As someone local to Newhaven I have been following the evidence of the couple’s known and possible movements around the area. Here is a timeline with some notes.

09 Jan, seen sheltering under underpass: UPDATED: £10,000 reward announced for information that helps to locate missing couple and newborn baby | Metropolitan Police

“They then walked to where the A259 crosses over the B2109. They were seen sheltering from the rain, under the overpass, at about 06:00hrs.”

29 Jan, allotment fire in a park close to the 09 Jan sighting of the couple: Newhaven fire: Emergency services respond to allotments | The Argus. Linked? Who knows, but the Police make an announcement in the next two days…

31 Jan, Sussex Police take over the case and reveal for the first time the 09 Jan Newhaven sightings.

<modsnip - not approved sources>


Over to you - ideas?!?
<modsnip - map linked to unapproved source>

 

[Obergine]

My thinking, btw, is that if you are looking for opportunities to get out of a port on a boat or in the back of a lorry you would need to hang around for long enough to recce the area - so it may be that they weren't regularly moving except within a certain area. If they had been staying in an allotment shed they may have decided better to torch it on leaving to remove traces of DNA if they felt the police were closing in, though that would draw attention so may well just be a coincidence.

 

[Quietey]

I still wonder whether there was something more in the burnt out vehicle that was found and hasn't been disclosed. The car was left in haste, on foot, with no chance to carry anything heavy or bulky, and clues as to their activities or intentions could have been left behind - something that would intensify existing concerns as to the safety of the child.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

<modsnip - rude> Plus, why buy a tent and cart it around? They have a newborn, that's more than enough to deal with <modsnip - rude>

<modsnip - rude> I also think the baby has already been in danger to be honest, or at least put at risk. Sure, babies are resilient but having to suffer by being on the move 24/7 without a safe (and sanitary) stable place of residence isn't good.

I'm still amazed how they've been to 5 or 6 towns, been spotted numerous times, used shops, taxi's and other places yet either the police haven't bothered to arrive in time or the person reporting the sighting has left it too late allowing them to move on. It seems important to the police but not good enough for them to actually make a national song and dance about it!

<modsnip - not victim friendly>

Bolded by me for focus.
JMO.
Let's go back to pre-historic times, just for a second.
Many newborn babies were on the move, 24/7, without a safe and sanitary stable place of residence. That is the definition of a newborn baby's life in those times.
I understand that in today's material world, there is no need for newborns to be subjected to that; what I want to point out is that although the baby is living in unpredictable and far from ideal circumstances, I feel they are keeping the baby as safe, warm and loved as possible.
Think about it: the most probable reason they are running with the baby is that they WANT that baby and love it. If that is the case, they will do all they can to ensure the baby is safe, healthy, loved, and warm.
Just like the pre-historic newborns were, but to a much lesser extent. As far as I know, there are no saber tooth tigers or mammoths in the south of England.

Edited to add: The cctv stills we have seen indicate that CM is baby-wearing after dumping the stroller. Baby-wearing (slings, back carriers, wrapped to front or back) is the best way to keep the baby warm, comfortable, and content while moving. The baby benefits from the parent's body heat and heartbeat (which is known to calm newborns), and if it is Mum that is babywearing, express fast food on the tap.
As for baby-wearing in general, many cultures have and still do this. It's very comforting for the baby and means the parent has two free hands to get on with life.
JMO

 

[infinit]

Bolded by me for focus.
JMO.
Let's go back to pre-historic times, just for a second.
Many newborn babies were on the move, 24/7, without a safe and sanitary stable place of residence. That is the definition of a newborn baby's life in those times.
I understand that in today's material world, there is no need for newborns to be subjected to that; what I want to point out is that although the baby is living in unpredictable and far from ideal circumstances, I feel they are keeping the baby as safe, warm and loved as possible.
Think about it: the most probable reason they are running with the baby is that they WANT that baby and love it. If that is the case, they will do all they can to ensure the baby is safe, healthy, loved, and warm.
Just like the pre-historic newborns were, but to a much lesser extent. As far as I know, there are no saber tooth tigers or mammoths in the south of England.

Not sure that's a great argument. There is a reason infant mortality rates globally have dropped from 22.5% in 1950 to 4.5% in 2015. Healthcare and welfare systems play a massive part in that. I expect in pre-historic times a baby was more likely to die than survive.

Child and Infant Mortality

Child mortality remains one of the world’s largest problems and is a painful reminder of work yet to be done. With global data on where, when, and how child deaths occur, we can accelerate efforts to prevent them.

ourworldindata.org

 

[Zella]

People can want a child and love a child and still not be able to actually care for that child in a safe, healthy, or loving way for any number of reasons. MOO

Also some people won't give up a child not because they love it but because they don't want to admit failure or lose control.

It's hard to know what the situation is (none of what I outlined above is necessarily true for this case), but I think the authorities are expending all this energy because they have some information that is causing them some serious concern with this situation.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Not sure that's a great argument. There is a reason infant mortality rates globally have dropped from 22.5% in 1950 to 4.5% in 2015. Healthcare and welfare systems play a massive part in that. I expect in pre-historic times a baby was more likely to die than survive.

Child and Infant Mortality

Child mortality remains one of the world’s largest problems and is a painful reminder of work yet to be done. With global data on where, when, and how child deaths occur, we can accelerate efforts to prevent them.

ourworldindata.org

Right now, it is 7C in Newhaven, U.K.

Where I am in Canada it is -7C. Reasonable for this time of year.
I baby-wore my son every morning and afternoon 7-8 years ago, to take and pick up my daughter from school when it was -20C. When I arrived home from these outings, my son would be too warm and I would be too warm also and I would take him off immeadiately.
The point I was trying to get across was extreme. Pre-historic times are so far removed from where we are now in 2023, that the harsh circumstances from pre-historic times are not an issue.
There is no proof they have been living outside.
The point I was trying to make was that if they were living outside, the baby will be warm, fed and not exposed to precipitation.
I am sure your statistics are solid, but it was not what I was getting at.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

People can want a child and love a child and still not be able to actually care for that child in a safe, healthy, or loving way for any number of reasons. MOO

Also some people won't give up a child not because they love it but because they don't want to admit failure or lose control.

It's hard to know what the situation is (none of what I outlined above is necessarily true for this case), but I think the authorities are expending all this energy because they have some information that is causing them some serious concern with this situation.

The effort could be because of 'Who' she is?

 

[Zella]

The effort could be because of 'Who' she is?

Yes that's certainly entirely possible. But I suspect there's more to it than that, though I'm sure that doesn't hurt.

 

[Observant-ADHD-ENFP-BSc]

Yes that's certainly entirely possible. But I suspect there's more to it than that, though I'm sure that doesn't hurt.

What if the more to it is embellishments from 'worried' parties? JMO
ETA: I am not dismissing what you said at all. I'm just adding another thought bubble

 

[Zella]

What if the more to it is embellishments from 'worried' parties? JMO

Again it's possible, but just because an accusation is made doesn't mean it is found to be actionable. Where I am, there have been instances where social services was called on a family and they subsequently determined that the accusations were being made out of vindictiveness rather than any actual danger to the child. I don't think that's an exclusive phenomenon to where I am, and I suspect accusations coming from estranged family members are going to be given due diligence but the fact it could be made inaccurately out of spite also factored in.

Personally, based on the sequence of events, I am not convinced that the social service response is due to anything the family has initiated. It seems more likely to me that the couple has been on the run precisely because they may have feared the child would be removed from them as soon as it was born. Whether that's born out of prior interactions with social services, paranoia, or something else, I don't know. MOO

 

[amaraya]

We do know that together they have other young children who are not with them. That, to me, makes me wonder if there is a care/security/safety issue in the past that has created this response.

And yes MG has served his time, <modsnip - not victim friendly> Isolation from everyone else (his family included, as they seem to be supportive of him) is not a good sign wandering around at all hours with the baby in the rain is also worrisome.

They easily could have checked in, given a call, stopped by a station and said, hey we are fine, just wanna be on our own.

But they haven't, which imho adds to the things that just seem off. I am sure they are caring for the baby as best they can, this we can see, but i am not convinced that it necessarily whats best for mama and baby (and dad).

If they are squatting, no matter where they find (& as i have said i did spend some time in my teens in well organized squats in london) hygiene will always be an issue to deal with.

 

[Amaz0nia]

As someone local to Newhaven I have been following the evidence of the couple’s known and possible movements around the area. Here is a timeline with some notes.

09 Jan, seen sheltering under underpass: UPDATED: £10,000 reward announced for information that helps to locate missing couple and newborn baby | Metropolitan Police

“They then walked to where the A259 crosses over the B2109. They were seen sheltering from the rain, under the overpass, at about 06:00hrs.”

29 Jan, allotment fire in a park close to the 09 Jan sighting of the couple: Newhaven fire: Emergency services respond to allotments | The Argus. Linked? Who knows, but the Police make an announcement in the next two days…

31 Jan, Sussex Police take over the case and reveal for the first time the 09 Jan Newhaven sightings.

<modsnip - not approved sources>


Over to you - ideas?!?
<modsnip - map linked to unapproved source>

Im also relatively local nr Hastings. If they are thinking of trying to get out of UK & have no passports, I wouldnt be surprised if they came over this way-, there is a fleet of beach launched fishing boats in hastings and it has been known in the past for smuggling. We also have a lot of people landing here on boats from Calais that disappear into the country park/area & a large scattered homeless population-maybe they could get info/contacts from those people on how to get smuggled out of the UK..also its on the way to Dover another port..or perhaps they have gone Brighton way-big city & easy to blend in there, and if you carry on theres Portsmouth & Plymouth docks..just a thought..

 

[DetectiveLawless]

Im 7 minutes away from Eastbourne. I may have to pop to town for a browse!

 

[ScalableHeights]

Missing couple and newborn baby last seen in Sussex, police confirm

"At around 11.46pm on January 7, the family went to Flower and Dean Walk near Brick Lane where they dumped a number of items, including the pushchair. They then got a taxi to Haringey, north London.

"They then arrived in Newhaven at 4.56am on January 8 after getting a taxi from Haringey at 1.24am. This is the last official sighting of the family, police say."

Newhaven is one thing, but in addition I'm interested to know what, or who, is in Haringey.

Just catching up with this. I live in East Sussex, not too far from Newhaven, and we've driven up through Haringey visiting friends & family in the past, and I can tell you that is not normally anything like a 3 1/2 hour drive, especially in the middle of the night when the roads would have been very quiet. It's probably about a 2 hour drive under usual conditions, so the fact it took significantly longer is interesting. Perhaps the taxi driver got lost as it's clearly well outside their usual beat (although in my experience they all tend to use satnav), or did they go somewhere else en route?

Two other notes - this got originally handed to the Met because their last confirmed sighting was in London. But now their last confirmed sighting is in Newhaven, and Sussex police are only assisting, it hasn't been handed over again. I'm not an expert, but if this was still just a welfare check (which I do think it was in the early stages) wouldn't it have just been handed on again to Sussex Police? There's nothing to indicate they plan on returning to the capital. I'm curious why the Met are keeping hold of it for now.

Finally, with this case in particular, 9th January is a lifetime ago. They were in Newhaven 3 days before the Met even took it over. My feeling is they are long gone, likely out of the country. If, as LE suggest, they have access to a large amount of cash and want to get out of the country on the down-low, I would imagine they have the resources to persuade someone to help them no-questions-asked, be it a fishing boat or a lorry. They're so far ahead of LE at this point they honestly could be anywhere

 

[rockthecasbah]

Just catching up with this. I live in East Sussex, not too far from Newhaven, and we've driven up through Haringey visiting friends & family in the past, and I can tell you that is not normally anything like a 3 1/2 hour drive, especially in the middle of the night when the roads would have been very quiet. It's probably about a 2 hour drive under usual conditions, so the fact it took significantly longer is interesting. Perhaps the taxi driver got lost as it's clearly well outside their usual beat (although in my experience they all tend to use satnav), or did they go somewhere else en route?

Two other notes - this got originally handed to the Met because their last confirmed sighting was in London. But now their last confirmed sighting is in Newhaven, and Sussex police are only assisting, it hasn't been handed over again. I'm not an expert, but if this was still just a welfare check (which I do think it was in the early stages) wouldn't it have just been handed on again to Sussex Police? There's nothing to indicate they plan on returning to the capital. I'm curious why the Met are keeping hold of it for now.

Finally, with this case in particular, 9th January is a lifetime ago. They were in Newhaven 3 days before the Met even took it over. My feeling is they are long gone, likely out of the country. If, as LE suggest, they have access to a large amount of cash and want to get out of the country on the down-low, I would imagine they have the resources to persuade someone to help them no-questions-asked, be it a fishing boat or a lorry. They're so far ahead of LE at this point they honestly could be anywhere

Good question about if, where and why they stopped. There's a lot of options between Haringey and Newhaven

 

[DetectiveLawless]

Just catching up with this. I live in East Sussex, not too far from Newhaven, and we've driven up through Haringey visiting friends & family in the past, and I can tell you that is not normally anything like a 3 1/2 hour drive, especially in the middle of the night when the roads would have been very quiet. It's probably about a 2 hour drive under usual conditions, so the fact it took significantly longer is interesting. Perhaps the taxi driver got lost as it's clearly well outside their usual beat (although in my experience they all tend to use satnav), or did they go somewhere else en route?

Two other notes - this got originally handed to the Met because their last confirmed sighting was in London. But now their last confirmed sighting is in Newhaven, and Sussex police are only assisting, it hasn't been handed over again. I'm not an expert, but if this was still just a welfare check (which I do think it was in the early stages) wouldn't it have just been handed on again to Sussex Police? There's nothing to indicate they plan on returning to the capital. I'm curious why the Met are keeping hold of it for now.

Finally, with this case in particular, 9th January is a lifetime ago. They were in Newhaven 3 days before the Met even took it over. My feeling is they are long gone, likely out of the country. If, as LE suggest, they have access to a large amount of cash and want to get out of the country on the down-low, I would imagine they have the resources to persuade someone to help them no-questions-asked, be it a fishing boat or a lorry. They're so far ahead of LE at this point they honestly could be anywhere

Being almost a month out on last sightings is pretty terrible isnt it. <modsnip> I think its unlikely they've gotten out of the country legally due to passports and find it a little far fetched that they'd pay off someone to smuggle them out.. Though they seem to be showing up at coastal towns with ports so it is obviously on their minds.

It has to be somewhat planned. Im not sure I believe that you could simply ask someone to put you in the back of their container to head to France or similar jump on a boat if they handed them a lump sum of money but perhaps they would.