UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #10

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Interesting that when Dr ventress messages LL about going to New Zealand to set up a neonatal unit she says .."with all the other faces that don't fit" not read that before


There was another time LL was messaging somebody that had a similar "us and them" vibe. I think it was another nurse who was saying they weren't going to share their sweets with some of the other nurses.
 
Interesting that when Dr ventress messages LL about going to New Zealand to set up a neonatal unit she says .."with all the other faces that don't fit" not read that before
I hadn't heard that phrase so just looked it up

From Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English somebody's face doesn't fit to say that someone will not get or keep a particular job because they are not the kind of person that the employer wants.
 
I hadn't heard that phrase so just looked it up

From Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English somebody's face doesn't fit to say that someone will not get or keep a particular job because they are not the kind of person that the employer wants.
I understood it as some misunderstandings/ even conflicts among staff.
Not nice atmosphere.
JMO
 
I feel there must have been conversations between LL and Dr Ventress about "not fitting" before this text, just by the way it's accepted as an understanding between them.

JMO
I also meant "family dynamics".
 
I hadn't heard that phrase so just looked it up

From Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English somebody's face doesn't fit to say that someone will not get or keep a particular job because they are not the kind of person that the employer wants.
The expression can be used in any group situation, it's not specific to employment. IMO It just describes feeling like an outsider, but in this context it's obviously the unit.

I'm a little surprised a doctor felt that way, and shared it with a nurse.
 
I haven’t looked in detail at either Dr Evans or Dr Bohin’s credentials. I have assumed that they are both suitably qualified and fairly well established in their fields at the very least in order for the prosecution to have chosen then. That’s not to say that I am taking everything they say as gospel, as in my opinion, based on the questions being asked by the defence, the defence also has
Credible experts who are giving different opinions.

JMO, but I have been impressed by Dr Bohin when she has given evidence, much more so than I have Dr Evans. Dr Bohin has shown herself willing to concede points where the defence raises something as a counter to evidence she has given, which to me boosts her credibility as a fully independent expert who wants to ensure that justice is done in this case . In contrast, Dr Evans has on occasion, made me feel like he is more concerned with defending his opinions and his history with this case, to the extent that he doesn’t concede valid points made by the defence.

I also find Dr Evans a bit unusual for an expert witness in some of his phrasing. He has made quite sweeping statements which you don’t tend to hear medical experts make, which are then easily challenged by the defence. One example, which springs to mind was where he described a baby as a “perfectly healthy baby”, when it clearly wasn’t because it was in the NICU, and he had to then clarify this to say that the baby was healthy given the circumstances.
"He adds that the care he received meant he had overcome the most difficult parts of his life and was "stable" prior to his deterioration.

Mr Myers asks if Child A was "perfectly satisfactory" prior to the collapse, as according to Dr Evans's notes.
Dr Evans says he does not want to engage in semantics, but adds that, for a pre-term baby in the position he was in, Child A was "satisfactory" and "really good"."

Recap: Lucy Letby trial, Tuesday, October 25
 
The expression can be used in any group situation, it's not specific to employment. IMO It just describes feeling like an outsider, but in this context it's obviously the unit.

I'm a little surprised a doctor felt that way, and shared it with a nurse.

This is the convo I was thinking of :


"The daytime designated nurse for Child G is in a text cnversation with Lucy Letby for much of the afternoon on September 7, the court is told.
Much of the conversation relates to the condition of Child G, although messages are also exchanged in which the designated nurse is 'venting' about a number of colleagues, adding she was going to buy some sweets and eat them all to herself. Letby responded: "Absolutely, don't share", followed by an emoji of a face with its tongue sticking out."

 
Hey everyone,

The principle of sub judice applies in the entire judicial process in the UK. While under sub judice, scandalizing the court, disparaging judges, lawyers, any officer of the Court is off limits. I think that is quite possible that may extend to experts who have been approved by the court.

Please be careful with posts that may be interpreted as sub judice (contempt of court). This includes anything that can bring the administration of justice into disrepute, anything that could influence a fair verdict in any way. IOW, let the lawyers do their own job without public input that could affect trial outcome.
 
the designated nurse is 'venting' about a number of colleagues, adding she was going to buy some sweets and eat them all to herself. Letby responded: "Absolutely, don't share", followed by an emoji of a face with its tongue sticking out[/B][/I]."

What a "rubbish" work place atmosphere.

Ooops!
And to think that this particular word I criticized earlier might be "perfect" to describe all this.

Life is full of surprises.
JMO
 
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The Trial of Lucy Letby
@LucyLetbyTrial
·
6h

This week Liz and Caroline examine the case of Baby I who Lucy Letby is accused of trying to kill 3 times before succeeding to murder on the 4th attempt. Jurors heard from a doctor who said she saw Lucy crying, ‘It’s always me when it happens, my babies…”


In this episode, Liz and Caroline explain the evidence the jury have heard in relation to a very premature baby girl, Baby I, who Lucy Letby allegedly attacked three times, before murdering her on the fourth attempt. Jurors heard from a doctor who said she saw Lucy Letby crying on the neo-natal unit and saying: ‘It’s always me when it happens, my babies…” The court was also shown a sympathy card Lucy Letby wrote to the parents of Baby I after she died. Lucy Letby denies all the allegations. Follow The Trial of Lucy Letby on Twitter @LucyLetbyTrialSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
 
There is no reporting for yesterday <modsnip: no source link>
 
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The Trial of Lucy Letby
@LucyLetbyTrial
·
6h

This week Liz and Caroline examine the case of Baby I who Lucy Letby is accused of trying to kill 3 times before succeeding to murder on the 4th attempt. Jurors heard from a doctor who said she saw Lucy crying, ‘It’s always me when it happens, my babies…”


In this episode, Liz and Caroline explain the evidence the jury have heard in relation to a very premature baby girl, Baby I, who Lucy Letby allegedly attacked three times, before murdering her on the fourth attempt. Jurors heard from a doctor who said she saw Lucy Letby crying on the neo-natal unit and saying: ‘It’s always me when it happens, my babies…” The court was also shown a sympathy card Lucy Letby wrote to the parents of Baby I after she died. Lucy Letby denies all the allegations. Follow The Trial of Lucy Letby on Twitter @LucyLetbyTrialSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I listened to podcast and took some notes---

9th alleged victim, , Baby I, a little girl, born at 27 weeks , 2lbs 2 oz at birth

Died on 10/23 after 4th attack

Baby I and G’s baby moms became close friends during the time their babies were patients there. Baby G and H were attacked, allegedly, just days prior to I's first attack.

---LL was designated nurse for baby I when she first arrived at COC, at 6 weeks old.


On 9/30 : LL , the designated nurse, told mom that Baby I had swollen tummy, she would have doctor check it out.

Mom then left hospital late afternoon but was called back again because baby had suddenly collapsed…

[this distended tummy was happening a lot over the 3 week period that I was at Crowne hospital—she had swollen stomach, mottled skin and they thought it may be bowel troubles---later on determined there were no bowel troubles.]


LL’s notes say she fed baby I, her milk, thru nose tube—and half an hour later she had a large vomit, she crashed and they called for resuscitation team. For 4 minutes…
So Child I struggled to breathe just 30 minutes after Letby was said to have fed her.

After she was resuscitated they did X-rays, and found large amount of gas/air in stomach /bowels, making it hard to breathe.

[ Sept 30--LL’s 1st attack?]


Over this 12 day period, baby I stabilised, had no collapses, and was breathing well and feeding well. The doctors began talking about releasing her in next 2 weeks if she stays the same.

[Oct12 -LL's 2nd attack?]

Nurse Hudson was designated— 3 am asked LL and another nurse to watch her in rm 2, while Hudson stepped away


When she returned, 15 minutes later, LL came and stood in doorway of room and said that baby I looked very pale—Hudson turned on the light —Alarm on breathing monitor wasn’t triggered even though baby wasn’t breathing well, and she was in crisis, almost white, not responding, very still and gasping for air

Hudson thought She had deteriorated so quickly, it was remarkable…

[LL later said lights were probably dimmed, not off but Hudson objected and said no, they were off]

Crash cart called in---
Baby needed 3 doses of adrenaline over 22 minutes of CPR resuscitation
She was put back on ventilator

LL took over as designated nurse at this time, moved into room 1
Mr Johnson said the baby recovered but “ironically” Letby then became Child I’s designated nurse.
X-rays taken , and again, unexplained air/gasses in bowels and stomach


[10/13th= the next night= 3rd attack?]


LL was designated nurse , her only baby that night

Dr said she was stable at 10 pm, despite all she had been through before

Later on, 5 am, LL said in notes she was looking ill and she gave her meds and antibiotics for her distended abdomen,

Not until 6 am did she call DR, when she asked for more oxygen

Dr did x-rays and found large amount of gas in stomach

child collapsed hours later and like previous night, needed adrenaline shots, chest compressions, full oxygen, and was resuscitated for 30 minutes until she recovered


That was the 2nd time in 28 hours she had crashed

Baby I’s mother said that her baby would suddenly deteriorate when she or husband left her alone at the hospital, and they were very concerned.

Baby I was transferred to level 3 hospital and quickly recovered, within 2 days with no more collapses, breathing on her own, feeding well, and was deemed healthy enough to return to Crowne, 5 days later.



On 10/17 she returned to Crowne—LL was away for 5 days, and baby I was thriving and breathing on her own, and parents were allowed to pick her up and cuddle her.


10/22 LL returned to work, and within hours, baby I was gone.


That night, I was in the care of Hudson. Just before midnight, Hudson found baby I was ‘unwell’ and unsettled and crying relentlessly ,very loudly. Then she seemed to weaken quickly and looked pale—She called for help and LL came in and they did chest compressions and she quickly recovered.


The doctor ordered x-rays and once again, she had a large bubble of gas in her stomach.


Later that shift, Hudson heard I crying again, and when she went into the room, LL was already standing over the baby, ‘trying to settle her with a dummy’


Same loud relentless cry…Hudson said ’she is going to collapse again, it’s the same loud cry’ but LL tried to assure her I “would be alright, she just needs to settle.” LL told her " We can sort it out." But Hudson wasn’t convinced.


Hudson ran to get the Doctor for help and I’s oxygen numbers began to quickly drop. CPR began for over an hour and she got 8 shots of adrenaline. It did not help.

She passed away. The 5th baby in 5 months who allegedly died at her hands


One of the doctors told the jury that he saw LL, crying to one of the other nurses, although he couldn’t pinpoint the exact day and time.

But he said LL cried and was saying “It’s always me when it happens, my babies, it’s always …happening to me a lot. "


She sent a sympathy card to the family, Only time she’d ever sent a card…
 
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Something I thought of last night...with all the hours parents spend at their newborns bedside (eg Baby Is parents are there for approx 12hrs a day) isnt it odd that none of these 25 incidents occured when the parents were sat next to the cot?

If nothing unnatural occured here, what would be the odds of that right?! If most parents do a 12hr cotside stint each day, 50% of the collapses should have occured whilst the family were present. But, by my calculations, none did.

JMO
 
Something I thought of last night...with all the hours parents spend at their newborns bedside (eg Baby Is parents are there for approx 12hrs a day) isnt it odd that none of these 25 incidents occured when the parents were sat next to the cot?

If nothing unnatural occured here, what would be the odds of that right?! If most parents do a 12hr cotside stint each day, 50% of the collapses should have occured whilst the family were present. But, by my calculations, none did.

JMO
Yes, that seems to be what baby I's mum was saying. She had young children at home but she and her husband both took turns sitting with their newborn during almost all of each day. She went to the hospital each morning and stayed until late afternoon. And her husband came after work each night until he went home to sleep.

And she felt like when they left to go sleep , her baby might suddenly collapse in middle of the night.

Here is an interesting time line snippet for baby I---she came to Crowne hospital at 8 weeks old. [I'd be curious to know if she was having these sudden collapses at her previous hospital.]

But she was deemed pretty stable and healthy and was placed in room 3, which was just for feeding, not for critical care necessities.

>>>>>>>>>>So she has a total collapse on Sept 30th. And recovers...

Then for next 12 days she is fine:

Over this 12 day period, baby I stabilised, had no collapses, and was breathing well and feeding well. The doctors began talking about releasing her in next 2 weeks if she stays the same.

----Then baby I has TWO serious collapses in 2 day period. Under LL's direct care.

---Baby TRANSFERS to another hospital---fine for 5 days there. Breathing and feeding on her own.

---Returns to Crowne and is fine for 5 more days ---LL is away on vacation.

----The very day LL returns, Baby I has another sudden collapse and she dies.
 
Something I thought of last night...with all the hours parents spend at their newborns bedside (eg Baby Is parents are there for approx 12hrs a day) isnt it odd that none of these 25 incidents occured when the parents were sat next to the cot?

If nothing unnatural occured here, what would be the odds of that right?! If most parents do a 12hr cotside stint each day, 50% of the collapses should have occured whilst the family were present. But, by my calculations, none did.

JMO
That's a very interesting perspective. It's a valild point, though I would say that it's unusual for parents to spend that long at the cotside, especially as the baby gets older and/or more stable. In my opinion, it's not really such a great idea as they often have little to do, so it's better for their mental health to get on with normal life & balance that with spending time with their baby. They also often have other children & most fathers go back to work quite soon.
 
Yes, that seems to be what baby I's mum was saying. She had young children at home but she and her husband both took turns sitting with their newborn during almost all of each day. She went to the hospital each morning and stayed until late afternoon. And her husband came after work each night until he went home to sleep.

And she felt like when they left to go sleep , her baby might suddenly collapse in middle of the night.

Here is an interesting time line snippet for baby I---she came to Crowne hospital at 8 weeks old. [I'd be curious to know if she was having these sudden collapses at her previous hospital.]

But she was deemed pretty stable and healthy and was placed in room 3, which was just for feeding, not for critical care necessities.

>>>>>>>>>>So she has a total collapse on Sept 30th. And recovers...

Then for next 12 days she is fine:

Over this 12 day period, baby I stabilised, had no collapses, and was breathing well and feeding well. The doctors began talking about releasing her in next 2 weeks if she stays the same.

----Then baby I has TWO serious collapses in 2 day period. Under LL's direct care.

---Baby TRANSFERS to another hospital---fine for 5 days there. Breathing and feeding on her own.

---Returns to Crowne and is fine for 5 more days ---LL is away on vacation.

----The very day LL returns, Baby I has another sudden collapse and she dies.
I have to ask! What does Crowne hospital refer to?
 
That's a very interesting perspective. It's a valild point, though I would say that it's unusual for parents to spend that long at the cotside, especially as the baby gets older and/or more stable. In my opinion, it's not really such a great idea as they often have little to do, so it's better for their mental health to get on with normal life & balance that with spending time with their baby. They also often have other children & most fathers go back to work quite soon.
Thats really interesting, especially as you have many years of ward experience of this. I just think back to the newborn stage with my children and you basically dont ever want to be more than 1m away from them at all times!

But I guess, even if a relative is only cotside for 6hrs a day, then you would expect, on average, for 25% of the collapses to have happened right in front of them. Yet that doesnt happen. The baby is seemingly usually alone (albeit for LLs presence)

JMO
 
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