ID - 4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 71

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Nova said:
There is no shame in being an "eternal student". I am proud to be one myself. (But not because I wanted to mistreat students. I loved teaching and got enormous satisfaction when my students did well.)
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Haha
But I guess BK, in contrast to you, did not seem to love teaching.

As a teacher myself I applaud "Lifelong Learning Education" :)

For the right reasons of course :)
 
Down To Earth said:
In considering the reported timeline of how BK's TA firing came about:

Sept 23 - "altercation" with professor
Oct 3 - meeting with professor to discuss "professional behavior"
Oct 21 - professor emails BK that he has failed expectations discussed at Oct 3 meeting
Nov 12 - meeting to discuss an improvement plan
Dec 7 - meeting to discuss how improvement plan is going
Dec 9 - second "altercation" with professor
Dec 19 - terminated

It's interesting to look at the timeline, knowing the murders took place the night of (technically the morning after) the Nov 12 meeting where an improvement plan was introduced. It's also interesting to think about what's been reported about how BK completely changed the way he graded papers right after the murders. Until we learned of the firing timeline it was somewhat implied via media that the change in BK's grading style was related to the crime (perhaps even that murdering relieved his anger, at least temporarily?). But it appears the change in grading style is almost certainly more to do with the improvement plan than anything crime related.

But still, I'm left to ponder that Nov 12 meeting, literally right before the murders. My pure speculation, but was BK reaping some type of psychological benefit or "high" from the harsh grading, an abuse he learned on Nov 12 that he would no longer be able to indulge in? How would he get his fix now? Were the female student complaints and subsequent improvement plan that they triggered further evidence that BK didn't have ultimate control over what females thought of him? Was there a way to indulge in an abuse that could never be overturned? Does any of this start to unblur the image of motive?

All just MOO.
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Good points. According to this article, the date for the meeting to discuss an improvement plan was November 2, although it doesn't really affect the timeline, IMO, just a difference in number of days for him to stew about things. He was failing in his academic relationships due to bad behavior and he could have been freaking out at being called on it and not being able to "improve", and feeling like his dream of becoming a professor himself was doomed (as mentioned by his mechanic in a post upthread). If I'm not being kind, which I usually aspire to, I would say the whole semester and move there was turning out to be an "epic fail". MOO

"He met with professors to discuss an "improvement plan" on November 2, just 11 days before the brutal murders happened. On December 7, Kohberger had another meeting with professors — this time to discuss his improvement plan progress.

Two days later, he allegedly had a second altercation with the same professor in which he was informed "it became apparent that you had not made progress regarding professionalism.""

Idaho Quadruple Murder Suspect Bryan Kohberger FIRED From Washington State University Weeks After Massacre, Accused Of Having 'Sexist Attitude Toward Females'
 
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Idaho murders: Bryan Kohberger prosecutor files new documents in secretive proceedings​

Fox News
Michael Ruiz
2/9/2023

"The Idaho prosecutor handling the murder case against student stabbings suspect Bryan Kohberger filed new documents Wednesday in the Latah County Magistrate court.
... [...] ...
The file shows that the court received a new affidavit from Latah Prosecuting Attorney Bill Thompson and a court memo on Feb. 8."

Idaho murders: Bryan Kohberger prosecutor files new documents in secretive proceedings
 
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Tintina said:
I think the same thing too. I just find me it strange what time he was already waiting at the house. How could he know that his intended victim would already be home? The thought that he might already be hiding somewhere in that house terrifies me
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I'm not convinced he had an intended victim but if he did, it has been said he lived 10 minutes away. Young people's habits are pretty consistent so I would be interested in what the victims had posted on social media that evening as well as if his computer happens to show he followed the food truck's live feeds.
 
Down To Earth said:
In considering the reported timeline of how BK's TA firing came about:

Sept 23 - "altercation" with professor
Oct 3 - meeting with professor to discuss "professional behavior"
Oct 21 - professor emails BK that he has failed expectations discussed at Oct 3 meeting
Nov 12 - meeting to discuss an improvement plan
Dec 7 - meeting to discuss how improvement plan is going
Dec 9 - second "altercation" with professor
Dec 19 - terminated

It's interesting to look at the timeline, knowing the murders took place the night of (technically the morning after) the Nov 12 meeting where an improvement plan was introduced. It's also interesting to think about what's been reported about how BK completely changed the way he graded papers right after the murders. Until we learned of the firing timeline it was somewhat implied via media that the change in BK's grading style was related to the crime (perhaps even that murdering relieved his anger, at least temporarily?). But it appears the change in grading style is almost certainly more to do with the improvement plan than anything crime related.

But still, I'm left to ponder that Nov 12 meeting, literally right before the murders. My pure speculation, but was BK reaping some type of psychological benefit or "high" from the harsh grading, an abuse he learned on Nov 12 that he would no longer be able to indulge in? How would he get his fix now? Were the female student complaints and subsequent improvement plan that they triggered further evidence that BK didn't have ultimate control over what females thought of him? Was there a way to indulge in an abuse that could never be overturned? Does any of this start to unblur the image of motive?

All just MOO.
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What do you all suppose "altercation" might mean in this context? What's your speculation?

Truly curious.

Speculation below

And I think the crime is related to the BK's disciplinary actions - and that his grading changed not because of the murders, but because of the plan. However, it's possible that there was psychological energy (rage, perhaps?) that BK needed to dispense into the world before he could bring himself under control and even try to meet the terms of the plan. Obviously, he then chose a passive-aggressive pathway. y

It's entirely possible that giving women low grades gave BK intense satisfaction. There are people like that (I'd say it's an immature personality). Denied that satisfaction, he got passive-aggressive (which I bet he was a master of, given how he applied it alongside altercations and actual violence in this case).

It probably really made him more angry than ever, that a man would take the women's side (or that a whole entire classroom apparently did).

My speculation is that BK is one of those people who only hears what he wants to hear, until he's absolutely forced to do otherwise. Women bad, men good. Tons of youtubes by men saying this; tons of youtubes with fake debates between men and women, wherein the men are well prepared and the women are chosen for their inability to articulate views without being vague (think Miss America type interviews of the women).

But what the heck went on in the altercation? What does the word mean to you all?
 
NyxNY said:
I think I'm thinking what you're thinking. Ted Bundy trial perhaps?
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Okay, so that might be what's happening. What if Bryan is basically refusing to cooperative with his attorney, while expressly stating that he wants no other representation? He gives her nothing. He offers her nothing. He waits until the prelim, is bound over for trial and then asks to represent himself? That way he can interrogate people.

I had two hypotheses about his current mental states and as usual, one of them was overly optimistic. I'll confess that I thought there was some probability that BK would, by now, be suffering from his disconnect from his online world and his real life pursuits (showering frequently, running at night, going for coffee, going to class, intimidating people). And maybe he'd soften a bit and start talking to his attorney - she won't encourage him to give a complete narrative, but she is probably wanting him to submit to a psychological eval.

But it looks like it's also possible that he's holding up very well, can perhaps just lay in a fantasy state all day and remain silent. Until Prelim. Then again, until trial? What would the Public Defender do in such an instance? Wouldn't the court want a psychiatric evaluation before permitting him to represent himself?

Or maybe not. He claims to be sane. He'd pass the eval and stonewall the psychiatrist as well.

So...yes, very Ted Bundy. I see shades of BTK, Ted Bundy, Joe DeAngelo and several others in his case.

MOO.
 
It is not know exactly when he was there his phone was switched off. It amazes me that the knew the inside of the house and how could he watch the food truck footage?
 
Nova said:
(Emphasis added.) Sorry to quote my own post, but I can't edit it now and 10ofRods came up with additional info on the Criminology program at WSU.

S/he wrote above that the program is independently funded and tuition is paid for all Ph.D. students.

So tuition wouldn't have been an issue for BK, even without a TAship. If the system is otherwise like the one I knew in CA, BK also lost living expenses when he was "fired". Who knows if he could have afforded to continue, even if he had not been arrested and charged with murder?

I realize BK left behind his computer equipment, which seems to indicate he thought he would be returning. But he wasn't terminated until Dec. 19, a few days after he got back to PA. Given his arrogance, perhaps he couldn't bring himself to believe such a drastic step would be taken.
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No - only 50% is paid first-third year. For Criminology students. For other programs, there is a 10% discount until they establish residency. Everyone with established residency gets free tuition only in the fourth year or beyond (which is typical of doctoral programs). Other programs have different percentages for second year - but Criminology appears to be the most generous.

IOW, Criminology students get a deep discount for their three years of coursework, until they advance to candidacy and get 100% tuition break. Out of state students get the same discount - but in the first year, their tuition is regular.

So he'd still get a discount off of a price of $27,000+ per year. Until advanced to candidacy. His second year, tuition would have been much less, just under $7000 total price - he'd have been paying half. With loans, that's a very good deal. I would imagine his entire cohort probably took loans for the remainder. I wonder how many other out of state students there were (WSU gets to keep tuition paid in his own budget, so OOS students are valuable - he had to have been exceptionally egregious and scary for them to terminate him).

Still a lot of money for Bryan this year - but not so much if he could make it to second year. For his Spring semester, he would have been without rent and food money unless he could find a well-paying job elsewhere - quickly. He could have taken more loans, I guess.

I agree with you that he intended to come back, at least when he got in the car. Of course, I have no idea how intentions work in a mind like BK's. There are people who have multiple opposing intentions at the same time.

I very much believe that he was finding it impossible to believe that he, BCK, could lose a job and be kicked out of school (which was going to come next, given the reasons for his termination). I wonder how many other student loans he has (DeSales is mostly a loans-only kind of school). Desales is $41,000 a year in tuition and fees for undergrads - and that includes the co-terminal master's program. He entered in the third year. That's over $120,000 in student debt - and he would have incurred another $14,000 or so in his first year at WSU. Finally, he was about to see the end of accruing debt.

That was yet another stressor, though (the thought that he was not going to get a well-paying job AND he was going to exit with a lot of debt, IMO, would be stressful).

IMO.
 
10ofRods said:
I think that's true in general. DH and I were discussing this last night - BK has not been expelled, that we know of. It's not really an issue right now, and if he is exonerated, he could return to WSU, I suppose.

I also wanted to mention that when results of a termination process are released publicly, it's the fact that the termination occurred and the formal reason enacted by the Board of Trustees or governing authority (often the Chancellor, sometimes the College President), not the entire case file from HR.

The HR records (all the phone calls, interviews, signed statements, etc) remain private. So in the case of a faculty person fired just this semester (who had an office two doors down from mine), it went Dean>College President>Chancellor and boom he was gone. He did not have tenure. And it didn't go to the Board because technically he resigned. He was told to resign immediately or face it going to the Board and it becoming public because the Chancellor and the President were adamant he would do (it was an egregious contractual offense, also rather open/shut - hard to deny).

The way I read the Criminology program's statement is that all Criminology students get some kind of discount on tuition (I think it was 50% as compared to 10% in some departments) in their first year (in addition to TA-ship). Then, if they take all measures to become Washington State residents (DL, car registration, voter registration, local address, etc) they get in-state tuition (half off, IIRC) for their second and third years, then it's free after that. He had clearly started the process of becoming in-state. At any rate, his tuition for Spring would have been something like $7500 at the 50% off rate. I am thinking he probably had some kind of loan for that amount, since his TAship wouldn't pay it.

But I bet the TAship covered his rent. It's possible he could have gotten loans for all of it, but it's still a disgrace and everyone around him would know it. Financial and psychological damage.

And I do believe that while he had fantasized committing a crime and had a very specific kind of crime in mind, he had some inhibitions to overcome. The situation with his schooling dialed down his inhibitions.
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TAs from out of state and working 50% time (20 hours) get in-state tuition (and have to become WA residents in the first year), and a stipend, which is recommended for PhD students as a minimum of about $16k for the academic year (they have scores of step levels for pay), and waivers of some fees. In addition, there is a separate qualified tuition waiver, bringing the total cost, depending on dept/funding source, down to about $1000/semester, with living expenses covered by the $1800+/month stipend (per 9 months).

 
Charlot123 said:
.... psychology behind hybristophilia, ... but I once came across an interesting hypothesis....
The author believes that the main attraction is neither the "the bad boy" status, nor "true love". The main attraction... the man is behind bars, forever,.... the way to have a "relationship" without having one... all her imaginary world of the "the man made for her", as she is never going to be with him. The "relationship status" prevents her from falling in love with "bad boys" around her .... she is not living a daily life with the criminal.

I assume BH's love will last for as long as BK is behind bars. If, by any chance, he is released, she'll immediately find another inmate of her dreams.
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snipped for focus @Charlot123

TYVM. An intriguing hypothesis, imo.

Yep, an "inmate of her dreams."
 
10ofRods said:
What do you all suppose "altercation" might mean in this context? What's your speculation?

Truly curious.

Speculation below

And I think the crime is related to the BK's disciplinary actions - and that his grading changed not because of the murders, but because of the plan. However, it's possible that there was psychological energy (rage, perhaps?) that BK needed to dispense into the world before he could bring himself under control and even try to meet the terms of the plan. Obviously, he then chose a passive-aggressive pathway. y

It's entirely possible that giving women low grades gave BK intense satisfaction. There are people like that (I'd say it's an immature personality). Denied that satisfaction, he got passive-aggressive (which I bet he was a master of, given how he applied it alongside altercations and actual violence in this case).

It probably really made him more angry than ever, that a man would take the women's side (or that a whole entire classroom apparently did).

My speculation is that BK is one of those people who only hears what he wants to hear, until he's absolutely forced to do otherwise. Women bad, men good. Tons of youtubes by men saying this; tons of youtubes with fake debates between men and women, wherein the men are well prepared and the women are chosen for their inability to articulate views without being vague (think Miss America type interviews of the women).

But what the heck went on in the altercation? What does the word mean to you all?
Click to expand...
In my opinion, an altercation usually has started as a result of a from a strong difference, and has escalated to the point of yelling, and possibly verbal abuse, but not physical (yet). At least one of the parties has not treated the other respectfully.
 
10ofRods said:
What do you all suppose "altercation" might mean in this context? What's your speculation?

Truly curious.

Speculation below

And I think the crime is related to the BK's disciplinary actions - and that his grading changed not because of the murders, but because of the plan. However, it's possible that there was psychological energy (rage, perhaps?) that BK needed to dispense into the world before he could bring himself under control and even try to meet the terms of the plan. Obviously, he then chose a passive-aggressive pathway. y

It's entirely possible that giving women low grades gave BK intense satisfaction. There are people like that (I'd say it's an immature personality). Denied that satisfaction, he got passive-aggressive (which I bet he was a master of, given how he applied it alongside altercations and actual violence in this case).

It probably really made him more angry than ever, that a man would take the women's side (or that a whole entire classroom apparently did).

My speculation is that BK is one of those people who only hears what he wants to hear, until he's absolutely forced to do otherwise. Women bad, men good. Tons of youtubes by men saying this; tons of youtubes with fake debates between men and women, wherein the men are well prepared and the women are chosen for their inability to articulate views without being vague (think Miss America type interviews of the women).

But what the heck went on in the altercation? What does the word mean to you all?
Click to expand...

Altercation: my first thoughts are raised voices, angry body language, harsh words.
 
Boxer said:
Totally agree. His boxing skills just allowed him to first kill his targeted victim, and she had a friend with her so that was a second but unplanned murder and then he ambushed to people obstructing his escape by boxing with his speed skills on his way out with a knife.
Maybe Ethan was taller and he got a different punch than the girls.
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I had wondered whether BK was aware that Kaylee would be visiting Moscow on that weekend, having possibly monitored her SM posts. In this case, he may have surmised that this would be the last opportunity he would have to "catch up" with her.
Regarding his "boxing skills" - there have been numerous posts noting that he was involved in boxing at one stage - is there any specific reference to his actual boxing skills and "speed skills". Was he any good at it? I tend to think that he didn't bother punching poor Ethan, and (apologies for this phrase) - just slashed him across his upper body/neck, which would have immediately incapacitated him. MOO
 
jjleroche said:
In my opinion, an altercation usually has started as a result of a from a strong difference, and has escalated to the point of yelling, and possibly verbal abuse, but not physical (yet). At least one of the parties has not treated the other respectfully.
Click to expand...

I was thinking same. A loud argument, possibly with obscenities, and a fear from at least one person that it could become physical.

Surely, if it had been physical, the prof would have called police?

Unfortunately, Washington (like California) is a two-party consent state, so a prof cannot record such an event (I'm thinking I would have wanted to record every event after the first altercation). You can ask permission of course - I might have done that.

One prof had a sign up on his door for a while saying "Video and Audio Recording in process," which is considered fair warning (but I think administration made him take it down).
 
Thanks for your views on altercation. I agree that if it had actually gotten physical, surely the word "assault" would be used?

I think an altercation can also involve things like angry leaving with some throwing of things (as when a student storms out and slams something into the trash can).

I'm sure it's all documented. And I'm guessing we may hear from the professor at trial. It's possible.
 
10ofRods said:
What do you all suppose "altercation" might mean in this context? What's your speculation?

Truly curious.

Speculation below

And I think the crime is related to the BK's disciplinary actions - and that his grading changed not because of the murders, but because of the plan. However, it's possible that there was psychological energy (rage, perhaps?) that BK needed to dispense into the world before he could bring himself under control and even try to meet the terms of the plan. Obviously, he then chose a passive-aggressive pathway. y

It's entirely possible that giving women low grades gave BK intense satisfaction. There are people like that (I'd say it's an immature personality). Denied that satisfaction, he got passive-aggressive (which I bet he was a master of, given how he applied it alongside altercations and actual violence in this case).

It probably really made him more angry than ever, that a man would take the women's side (or that a whole entire classroom apparently did).

My speculation is that BK is one of those people who only hears what he wants to hear, until he's absolutely forced to do otherwise. Women bad, men good. Tons of youtubes by men saying this; tons of youtubes with fake debates between men and women, wherein the men are well prepared and the women are chosen for their inability to articulate views without being vague (think Miss America type interviews of the women).

But what the heck went on in the altercation? What does the word mean to you all?
Click to expand...
I wonder if either of those altercations was actually Kohberger being confronted by an entire class. JMO
 
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