TX TX - Julie Moseley, 9, Mary Trlica, 17, Lisa Wilson, 14, Fort Worth, 23 Dec 1974 #6

[Valiant]

TT’s “military career” was probably to fulfill his draft obligations, nothing more.

 

[beubeubeu]

So, basically the polygraph is irrelevant?

Not irrelevant but basically: more factors are known to the person who's executing the polygraph interview, and better understanding they have of it's disadvantages, less inaccurate it is.
Good understanding of polygraphs, some experience and decent perspective of the kind of personality, lifestyle, medical conditions and background of the person given the polygraph test seems to have pretty reliable accuracy (even up to 95-98%). But since it's hard to have all of it... more unknown, less accurate the results are, up to basically random decision generator level.

On the top of that it's also not uncommon for the LE to publicly state or unoficially say that person X failed miserably (or passed with bright colors) while it's completely false (so the actual results indicated the truth (or lies)) just in hope that learning about this can cause some reaction that will give them new lead.

So for example (just theoretically) let's say that TT's polygraphs were inconclusive. Investigator figured that it gives him nothing, BUT saw some possible benefits in stating that he passed with bright colors, like cold blooded sociopath:
- to feed TT with false sense of being able to fool them (if he was their main suspect/POI then) and hope that he will slip,
- or even to give a false sense of security to someone else, who they saw as main suspect/POI, by convinving him/her and everyone else that all eyes are on TT, hoping for the real perp's mistake.

Soo... it's not only hard to tell with polygraphs alone, and statements about them are whole different thing.

 

[T rex]

Every hand stamped postmark I’ve seen is noticeably different than the automated machine postmark. To me the envelope looks like machine postmarked.

There's a reason why I was looking for a way to bypass the mail when I came across this handback service. I just can't understand how the envelope arrived when it did. If it had been stamped on the 23rd and arrived at Minot on the 24th I would still say that was awful fast, but it was stamped on the same day it arrived. That's lightning fast.
Now I'm looking at it from this angle. This is desperation. A letter is desperately needed and it has to be now. It has to be on the 24th there's no way around it. It has to be done. The mail does not run on Christmas and you cannot wait. The other families will be putting pressure on LE and there's the media and there's the FBI. This cannot be thought of as an abduction. So a runaway letter is needed. Regardless of who wrote it or how many wrote it, you now have it but now you need an envelope. Desperation again. It has to be done and it has to be done now. This ones a little tougher because a letter doesn't have to have a date but the envelope does. So now what do you do? What are your options? Well it doesn't matter because it has to be done.
I know this is just "buying time" like we always discuss here. I just want everyone to think about the desperation that was involved in it and what that entails.

So, to summarize this post: an envelope was desperately needed on the 24th. An envelope comes on the 24th. The envelope is postmarked the 24th.

 

[Brightchaser47]

TT’s “military career” was probably to fulfill his draft obligations, nothing more.

Is it fact that he was drafted (as opposed to enlisting)?

 

[Brightchaser47]

Not irrelevant but basically: more factors are known to the person who's executing the polygraph interview, and better understanding they have of it's disadvantages, less inaccurate it is.
Good understanding of polygraphs, some experience and decent perspective of the kind of personality, lifestyle, medical conditions and background of the person given the polygraph test seems to have pretty reliable accuracy (even up to 95-98%). But since it's hard to have all of it... more unknown, less accurate the results are, up to basically random decision generator level.

On the top of that it's also not uncommon for the LE to publicly state or unoficially say that person X failed miserably (or passed with bright colors) while it's completely false (so the actual results indicated the truth (or lies)) just in hope that learning about this can cause some reaction that will give them new lead.

So for example (just theoretically) let's say that TT's polygraphs were inconclusive. Investigator figured that it gives him nothing, BUT saw some possible benefits in stating that he passed with bright colors, like cold blooded sociopath:
- to feed TT with false sense of being able to fool them (if he was their main suspect/POI then) and hope that he will slip,
- or even to give a false sense of security to someone else, who they saw as main suspect/POI, by convinving him/her and everyone else that all eyes are on TT, hoping for the real perp's mistake.

Soo... it's not only hard to tell with polygraphs alone, and statements about them are whole different thing.

Sounds like there are a lot of variables at play... I can see why people might be skittish about taking one (guilty or innocent).

 

[Brightchaser47]

I can't see TT being involved without DA knowing something and I can't see DA being involved without TT knowing something. Without a body no one can prove anything.

Agreed--if we assume that DA and TT were both at home on the 23rd. Unless I missed something, the only other person who would know for sure (besides the girls), would be TT's ex- wife-- if she was there. I understand there's been debate about that.

 

[Valiant]

Is it fact that he was drafted (as opposed to enlisting)?

He would have been subject to the draft. So enlisting might give more choices, especially as to which branch, but other than that the difference wasn’t so much.

 

[Valiant]

There's a reason why I was looking for a way to bypass the mail when I came across this handback service. I just can't understand how the envelope arrived when it did. If it had been stamped on the 23rd and arrived at Minot on the 24th I would still say that was awful fast, but it was stamped on the same day it arrived. That's lightning fast.
Now I'm looking at it from this angle. This is desperation. A letter is desperately needed and it has to be now. It has to be on the 24th there's no way around it. It has to be done. The mail does not run on Christmas and you cannot wait. The other families will be putting pressure on LE and there's the media and there's the FBI. This cannot be thought of as an abduction. So a runaway letter is needed. Regardless of who wrote it or how many wrote it, you now have it but now you need an envelope. Desperation again. It has to be done and it has to be done now. This ones a little tougher because a letter doesn't have to have a date but the envelope does. So now what do you do? What are your options? Well it doesn't matter because it has to be done.
I know this is just "buying time" like we always discuss here. I just want everyone to think about the desperation that was involved in it and what that entails.

So, to summarize this post: an envelope was desperately needed on the 24th. An envelope comes on the 24th. The envelope is postmarked the 24th.

Back then, mail went from small post office to small post office, sometimes with AM and PM service.
Now it all goes to central locations and back out.

 

[T rex]

Back then, mail went from small post office to small post office, sometimes with AM and PM service.
Now it all goes to central locations and back out.

The envelope arrived early on the 24th and was stamped the 24th so I don't think there's any doubt that it went out in the AM of the 24th. If it went out in the AM or PM of the 23rd then it should be stamped the 23rd. I don't see where that would be in question.

Yes I remember how the mail use to work and I've never seen something arrive on the same date it was postmarked. I lived in small towns, there was no other post office and it still took 2 to 3 days to receive local mail. If you're saying in the bigger cities that mail was transferred between post offices then shouldn't that have taken even longer?

I looked to see if we had a verified expert on this subject but apparently we don't. I didn't see anything close.

 

[Ozoner]

From "The Texas oblivion: mysterious disappearances, escapes and cover-ups" by E.R. Bills, published in 2021:

View attachment 403805

I think that you're thinking of somebody different than the Melvin that I was referring to.

"Rachel Trlica's sister, Debra, ran out of gas one day, and a man named Melvin helped her push her car into a service station. Melvin asked Debra for her phone number or address, but she wouldn't give it to the man. In fact, Debra told him to get lost. Apparently, however, Melvin did the opposite of that. He made a note of Debra's license plate number and was able to get a phone number from that. He called the Arnold home and spoke with Debra, telling her he was a junior at O. D. Wyatt, a Fort Worth High School that is a little over a mile directly east of Seminary South Shopping Center, according to Fran Arnold.

"Debra told private investigator Dan James that she never spoke with Melvin on the phone, just one of the conflicting details surrounding every square inch of this case. Anyway, Melvin called the Arnold home again, and Rachel answered. At some point after the calls from Melvin, he came to the Arnold home. It must have been several days later, but that detail, unfortunately, isn't in the notes.

"As if the events so far weren't unsettling enough, here's where it gets really creepy: When Melvin came to the home, it sounds like he did so specifically to meet Cotton and Fran Arnold. The man, it sounds like, wasn't even close to being a high school junior, as he claimed on the phone with Debra. Fran described him as being in his early thirties, in fact. Melvin told Cotton and Fran that he was a Methodist preacher who was looking for someone to babysit his two children—a live-in babysitter, meaning Rachel, who had to be, at the very oldest, sixteen years old at the time.

"Fran and Cotton assumed, at first, that it was the first time he'd met Rachel, but it wasn't at all, apparently. According to Fran's notes, Melvin had been meeting Rachel at her school and had even given her a ring with a small diamond on it and the initial M. And that's all we know about the mystery man known as Melvin, except that Fran and Cotton Arnold, they say, forbade her to see him past that point. I don't even have the man's last name."

Source: The Fort Worth Missing Trio Part 3: From Nowhere to Nowhere beginning around 14:10.

 

[FW_Froggy]

Agreed--if we assume that DA and TT were both at home on the 23rd. Unless I missed something, the only other person who would know for sure (besides the girls), would be TT's ex- wife-- if she was there. I understand there's been debate about that.

Then again TT's ex wife didn't go through the whole house she just stayed in one room while Rachel got the LiL Fella's stuff ready. TT's house was set up where the driveway went around the house so she wouldn't of been able to see cars in the back either.

 

[FW_Froggy]

Bottom line we don't know where DA was that day. We don't know where TT was that day until 6;30PM went he was at the Bowling Alley. We really don't know where Cotton was that day. We know he had a treatment BUT that treatment was an ointment put on his skin by FA (Cotton had skin cancer).

 

[beubeubeu]

I think that you're thinking of somebody different than the Melvin that I was referring to.

"Rachel Trlica's sister, Debra, ran out of gas one day, and a man named Melvin helped her push her car into a service station. Melvin asked Debra for her phone number or address, but she wouldn't give it to the man. In fact, Debra told him to get lost. Apparently, however, Melvin did the opposite of that. He made a note of Debra's license plate number and was able to get a phone number from that. He called the Arnold home and spoke with Debra, telling her he was a junior at O. D. Wyatt, a Fort Worth High School that is a little over a mile directly east of Seminary South Shopping Center, according to Fran Arnold.

"Debra told private investigator Dan James that she never spoke with Melvin on the phone, just one of the conflicting details surrounding every square inch of this case. Anyway, Melvin called the Arnold home again, and Rachel answered. At some point after the calls from Melvin, he came to the Arnold home. It must have been several days later, but that detail, unfortunately, isn't in the notes.

"As if the events so far weren't unsettling enough, here's where it gets really creepy: When Melvin came to the home, it sounds like he did so specifically to meet Cotton and Fran Arnold. The man, it sounds like, wasn't even close to being a high school junior, as he claimed on the phone with Debra. Fran described him as being in his early thirties, in fact. Melvin told Cotton and Fran that he was a Methodist preacher who was looking for someone to babysit his two children—a live-in babysitter, meaning Rachel, who had to be, at the very oldest, sixteen years old at the time.

"Fran and Cotton assumed, at first, that it was the first time he'd met Rachel, but it wasn't at all, apparently. According to Fran's notes, Melvin had been meeting Rachel at her school and had even given her a ring with a small diamond on it and the initial M. And that's all we know about the mystery man known as Melvin, except that Fran and Cotton Arnold, they say, forbade her to see him past that point. I don't even have the man's last name."

Source: The Fort Worth Missing Trio Part 3: From Nowhere to Nowhere beginning around 14:10.

Oh great, so one more of those. That's not the same guy then.

I have one, mostly not that related question: what the hell is going on with those diamond rings? Renee was described as wearing diamond ring in white gold, Rachel two diamond rings... the one mentioned sounds like could be the third. Were diamonds incredibly cheap back then?

Also, I need to retype it to digest.

So Debra met a creep one day, tried to get rid of him but failed.
He traced her, got her address.
Called Arnold's, asked for Debra and spoke with her while pretending to be someone else.
Called again, spoke with Rachel.
Got tired with calls and showed up at Arnold's, claiming to be a Methodist preacher and wanting to get Rachel to live with him and "babysit" his kids.
Then they learned that he was meeting Rachel at SCHOOL and gave her a diamond ring and they forbade her from seeing him at that point.

So... as far as Debra was aware, he was just some creep that she met at random.
Spoke with him on the phone while unaware that it's the same creep she met before cause he pretended to be someone else.
But he was allegedly meeting Rachel before, up to the point where he gave her a ring.
Then why would he need to trace Debra's licence plates in the first place?

What this story even is?
So Rachel was meeting this old creep at school, and either accepted a gift or accepted an engagement ring.
But... he was also actively stalking Debra? - who was unaware of what's going on?
He called Arnold's at least twice and even showed up there, trying to convince her parents to let her move in with him but they didn't let her.

I don't remember girls names but GOD, I could swear that I read that story before, more than once, and it wasn't related to this case.

 

[Ozoner]

Oh great, so one more of those. That's not the same guy then.

I have one, mostly not that related question: what the hell is going on with those diamond rings? Renee was described as wearing diamond ring in white gold, Rachel two diamond rings... the one mentioned sounds like could be the third. Were diamonds incredibly cheap back then?

Also, I need to retype it to digest.

So Debra met a creep one day, tried to get rid of him but failed.
He traced her, got her address.
Called Arnold's, asked for Debra and spoke with her while pretending to be someone else.
Called again, spoke with Rachel.
Got tired with calls and showed up at Arnold's, claiming to be a Methodist preacher and wanting to get Rachel to live with him and "babysit" his kids.
Then they learned that he was meeting Rachel at SCHOOL and gave her a diamond ring and they forbade her from seeing him at that point.

So... as far as Debra was aware, he was just some creep that she met at random.
Spoke with him on the phone while unaware that it's the same creep she met before cause he pretended to be someone else.
But he was allegedly meeting Rachel before, up to the point where he gave her a ring.
Then why would he need to trace Debra's licence plates in the first place?

What this story even is?
So Rachel was meeting this old creep at school, and either accepted a gift or accepted an engagement ring.
But... he was also actively stalking Debra? - who was unaware of what's going on?
He called Arnold's at least twice and even showed up there, trying to convince her parents to let her move in with him but they didn't let her.

I don't remember girls names but GOD, I could swear that I read that story before, more than once, and it wasn't related to this case.

The day he wrote down Debra's license plate was apparently the first time he encountered anyone in the Arnold family. Even when I was young only law enforcement and private detectives were able to run a license plate in order to acquire an address, but Melvin apparently managed to do it.

It appears that he gave up on Debra and started stalking/grooming Rachel. I sort of doubt he gave up simply because Fran and Cotton "forbade" Rachel to see him.

If he gave Rachel a diamond ring, in his delusional mind he might have considered her his wife. That makes me wonder about the reported sighting at the mall where a man said that the dispute was between him and his wife.

 

[beubeubeu]

The envelope arrived early on the 24th and was stamped the 24th so I don't think there's any doubt that it went out in the AM of the 24th. If it went out in the AM or PM of the 23rd then it should be stamped the 23rd. I don't see where that would be in question.

Yes I remember how the mail use to work and I've never seen something arrive on the same date it was postmarked. I lived in small towns, there was no other post office and it still took 2 to 3 days to receive local mail. If you're saying in the bigger cities that mail was transferred between post offices then shouldn't that have taken even longer?

I looked to see if we had a verified expert on this subject but apparently we don't. I didn't see anything close.

You may not need any expert at all. Just data... or nothing.

The only way for that letter to arrive in the morning on 24th would be for it to:
1. Be put inside the postal box in late hours of previous day or very early in the morning of 24th, before the box was emptied in the morning,
2. Be collected in the early morning hours of 24th, stamped, sorted through...
3. And given to the local postman doing his first route among with other mail prepared for him on that day.

So was the mail from the SS kiosk forwared straight to the post office that employed postmans who were delivering on Minot St. in December '74 or not?
Cause if yes, it'd be completely possible. Otherwise highely unlikely.

But are you keeping in mind that the timeline with envelope varies?
Could be delivered right away, in the matter of drive to and back from T's house.
Could be delivered in the matter of hours, preceeded with some searching, but still on the 24th.
Could be delivered by TT around noon on the 26th with excuse that he was looking for it and unable to locate it earlier.

 

[beubeubeu]

The day he wrote down Debra's license plate was apparently the first time he encountered anyone in the Arnold family. Even when I was young only law enforcement and private detectives were able to run a license plate in order to acquire an address, but Melvin apparently managed to do it.

But who made that conclusion?
Nothing is known about this "Melvin" guy so how it is known that he got the address through licence plates, not in progress of good, oldschool stalking?

It appears that he gave up on Debra and started stalking/grooming Rachel. I sort of doubt he gave up simply because Fran and Cotton "forbade" Rachel to see him.

If he gave Rachel a diamond ring, in his delusional mind he might have considered her his wife. That makes me wonder about the reported sighting at the mall where a man said that the dispute was between him and his wife.

There was a case with a young girl who was looking for babysitting job and disappeared from the face of the Earth after being so excited to finally find one? There was something with her mom being given phone number and address of the place she was going to, being tricked into "checking" it, only to learn few hours later that her daughter is gone, given address was fake and phone number belonged to the phone booth. Not sure if I'm not mixing two cases together, but there could be also another local teenage girl who "applied" for same job with similar way but somehow didn't made it to the meeting and her parents only later learned that it was same scam.

Most likely unrelated, just popular scheme to abduct and/or groom teenage girls but I wonder if it wasn't by any chance also from Texas.

 

[Ozoner]

But who made that conclusion?
Nothing is known about this "Melvin" guy so how it is known that he got the address through licence plates, not in progress of good, oldschool stalking?

There was a case with a young girl who was looking for babysitting job and disappeared from the face of the Earth after being so excited to finally find one? There was something with her mom being given phone number and address of the place she was going to, being tricked into "checking" it, only to learn few hours later that her daughter is gone, given address was fake and phone number belonged to the phone booth. Not sure if I'm not mixing two cases together, but there could be also another local teenage girl who "applied" for same job with similar way but somehow didn't made it to the meeting and her parents only later learned that it was same scam.

Most likely unrelated, just popular scheme to abduct and/or groom teenage girls but I wonder if it wasn't by any chance also from Texas.

Could you be thinking of the Kelly Cook case up in Canada?

CANADA - Canada - Kelly Cook, 15, Standard, AB, 22 April 1981

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cc-afn/cook-kelly-eng.htm "Location : Standard, Alberta (AB) Details : Kelly Jane Evelyn COOK, a 15 year-old female, lived with her parents in the village of Standard, Alberta, which is located 70 kilometers northeast of Calgary, Alberta. On April 22, 1981, at 8:20...

www.websleuths.com

 

[beubeubeu]

I know that's pretty weird question, but were Renee and Rachel really like best friends?

All the connection between families appears to be through the Arnold's neighbour who was friends with Mrs. Wilson AND camping together or near each other at the Benbrook Lake few times.
Was Fran that Neighbour's friend as well? Or just friendly neighbour?

In some sources it keeps being implied that Wilson's and Arnold's lived close to each other, but they were not.

It was mentioned that they weren't meeting that often after Rachel got married.
TM also claimed that he didn't knew Rachel well/hasn't met her many times before late morning of 23rd (not implying that he didn't knew her at all, but that she wasn't hanging out with them that often.

It's been said Rachel and Julie never met before.
So she wasn't hanging out around Renee's grandma's house.
Yet Renee was spending lot of time at Grandma's.
So only chances TM could get to meet Rachel would be on some social gatherings after he started dating Renee.
This adds up.

But was that a long anticipated meeting between two best friends who didn't get much occasion to meet in recent months, but kept calling each other often?
Or was it more like it happened that they chatted sometime before and it happened that Renee had these jeans on layway at the Army Navy and was up to visit the mall later, being just one of the people Rachel offered to take there?
Was Renee even likely aware what's going on in Rachel's life recently?

And what about that gift from Renee's grandma to Rachel's stepson?
Who's buying gifts for new stepson of a granddaughter's friend?
Sounds like she either knew his biological parents... or was a lovely lady who tried to get gifts for every child she knew about. If the latter - any chance that it wasn't the only gift to deliver on the way to the mall? With some stops made at the houses of people known to Renee, not Rachel?

 

[beubeubeu]

Could you be thinking of the Kelly Cook case up in Canada?

CANADA - Canada - Kelly Cook, 15, Standard, AB, 22 April 1981

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cc-afn/cook-kelly-eng.htm "Location : Standard, Alberta (AB) Details : Kelly Jane Evelyn COOK, a 15 year-old female, lived with her parents in the village of Standard, Alberta, which is located 70 kilometers northeast of Calgary, Alberta. On April 22, 1981, at 8:20...

www.websleuths.com

No, but dear God, I just tried to google it and it looks like there is a lot of missing or/and murdered babysitters.

Possibly it was Maggie Fox...

14 year old Maggie Fox, abducted on 24 June 1974 from Burlington, New Jersey
NJ - NJ - Margaret Fox, 14, Burlington, 24 June 1974

 

[Brightchaser47]

Then again TT's ex wife didn't go through the whole house she just stayed in one room while Rachel got the LiL Fella's stuff ready. TT's house was set up where the driveway went around the house so she wouldn't of been able to see cars in the back either.

So, it's confirmed she was there? Also, who was babysitting the little one? When Rachel had left to pick up Renee, DA was in bed. Was TT actually there, watching his kid, when Mama came to get him?
I'd understood TT and Rachel had planned to have him for Christmas-- that's part of the "narrative". Was that not so, or did plans suddenly get changed?