UK - Constance Marten & Mark Gordon & Newborn (found deceased), Bolton Greater Manchester, 5 Jan 2023 #2 *Arrest*

[in2thegate]

I cannot help but feel (sorry if this upsets or angers people) that the police from the outset could have gone about this differently with how they released information to the press and making them sound like convicts straight away and that it could have swayed CM and MG decision with their clearly incredibly vulnerable child. I am NOT at all condoning their behaviour and the choices that the made but a little bit of empathy from the outset could have changed the thought process of CM and given the child a better chance.

 

[Rosiebones]

The key to where the child is may be when the last time they purchased any items directly related to his care, such as diapers. They had just withdrawn money from the convinience store to purchase the items in the bags. Can't they check withdrawals from the account and backtrack and find where the last baby items were purchased? It could be weeks ago.
It would help to narrow where to search or inquire. MOO MOO MOO

 

[rockthecasbah]

There's a bunch of articles on the Daily Mail website. Lots of various pics, some we maybe haven't seen before. Here's a link to one article.

Police search for Constance Marten's's missing baby continues

Fears are growing for runaway aristocrat Constance Marten's baby after it emerged that she visited a food bank without have been without their baby for at least a week, MailOnline can reveal.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Thanks. Cannot tell who is who on that arrest video.

 

[Marie Bell]

I wonder what the solicitors thoughts are on this. Are they advising them to go no comment or are they suggesting they confirm where the baby is. Imagine being in that situation……I’d be just “tell them” JMO

I don't think we know whether they have accepted any solicitors, or whether they would even speak to the solicitors. Many people who decline to engage with the process don't accept any offers of legal representation.

 

[QB2022]

I can only imagine their logic is to deny a baby even exists.

I'm so worried for this baby.

 

[Telltale]

It seems to me the police went to great lengths to not paint them as convicts. For all we read between the lines, all of the police messaging was about finding them to make sure they and the baby were alright. They were portrayed by the police as missing persons the whole time, not criminals.

The information about MGs sex offender past didn't hit the press until about two weeks after they went missing, and you have to imagine the press were told to hold back because it was found by people on here long before that. MG and CMs (probable) other social service involvement has also never been reported in mainstream news. You might even argue this strategy led to many people who might have seen them thinking they were being unjustly hunted.

I think MG and CM had their course of action - to avoid social services and authorities taking this baby at all costs - set before police and the public even became aware of them and their pregnancy. If the burning car fire and backseat birth followed by a national appeal didn't dissuade them, I don't think any strategy of the police or other services would have worked IMO.

At the end of the day, in the circumstances that police became aware of the couple and baby, they really had no choice but to track them down as fast as possible - perhaps if it was just the two of them they could have been left to it, but there was a vulnerable newborn involved. It would have been the height of negligence not to ensure its welfare. As we seem to be sadly finding out.

 

[rightsaidfred]

The key to where the child is may be when the last time they purchased any items directly related to his care, such as diapers. They had just withdrawn money from the convinience store to purchase the items in the bags. Can't they check withdrawals from the account and backtrack and find where the last baby items were purchased? It could be weeks ago.
It would help to narrow where to search or inquire. MOO MOO MOO

I agree it would be fascinating to know what was in the latest purchase, but it may be optimistic to think they can track backwards readily.

We know they were using cash for a long time and had something of a slush fund that might only recently have run out.

There would have been a flag put on any known accounts of MG and CM. We know they were found using a bank card at an ATM. My bet is it was either the first time they'd used their own card after running out of funds, or they were using a stolen one.

 

[Rolypolyoly]

Re recent lactation, I think if CM was still active breastfeeding a live child the evidence would be obvious very quickly without a physical examination. There would be leakage and she would be very uncomfortable and engorged by now without a baby to feed or without expressing.

I think they may very well have found someone they trust to take to take baby, they seemed determined to get to a certain area and moved almost constantly for days and then once they got to Newhaven they stayed put. Those burner phones could have been used purely for data and be used with WhatsApp or signal for instance, messages deleted as soon as they've been marked as recieved so even if caught the police couldn't access them.
JMO

 

[rockthecasbah]

Re recent lactation, I think if CM was still active breastfeeding a live child the evidence would be obvious very quickly without a physical examination. There would be leakage and she would be very uncomfortable and engorged by now without a baby to feed or without expressing.

I think they may very well have found someone they trust to take to take baby, they seemed determined to get to a certain area and moved almost constantly for days and then once they got to Newhaven they stayed put. Those burner phones could have been used purely for data and be used with WhatsApp or signal for instance, messages deleted as soon as they've been marked as recieved so even if caught the police couldn't access them.
JMO

Could be their health (any of them) declined by that time so they couldn't move around as much anymore, and/or didn't have the hundreds of pounds left for long distance taxis (imo)

 

[MarziPanda]

I cannot help but feel (sorry if this upsets or angers people) that the police from the outset could have gone about this differently with how they released information to the press and making them sound like convicts straight away and that it could have swayed CM and MG decision with their clearly incredibly vulnerable child. I am NOT at all condoning their behaviour and the choices that the made but a little bit of empathy from the outset could have changed the thought process of CM and given the child a better chance.

I feel the opposite. The early police statements and press releases were very careful to not paint them as convicts. Simply saying they were concerned for the health of mother and baby and imploring the couple to do the right thing for their baby. They didn't mention that older children had been taken away. Didn't mention his convictions. Didn't mention (and still haven't) any mental health conditions or why other children may have been taken away.

It was the general public and the press that did their own sleuthing and read between the lines. The police had the unfortunate task of releasing statements that encourage the couple to come forward, but at the same time emphasise to the general public that the couple absolutely needs to be found for the sake of the baby. They had to strike a balance.

 

[Cuko]

My gut feeling is that the baby is alive and well and with someone. Nothing to base this on, just a feeling. IMO

I hope so much that you’re right.

 

[jackal67]

I agree it would be fascinating to know what was in the latest purchase, but it may be optimistic to think they can track backwards readily.

We know they were using cash for a long time and had something of a slush fund that might only recently have run out.

There would have been a flag put on any known accounts of MG and CM. We know they were found using a bank card at an ATM. My bet is it was either the first time they'd used their own card after running out of funds, or they were using a stolen one.

the police would have taken their shopping bags when the pair were arrested so will know if there were any baby supplies purchased surely?

 

[infinit]

the police would have taken their shopping bags when the pair were arrested so will know if there were any baby supplies purchased surely?

I could be wrong, or perhaps it's for operational or tactical reasons. But I'd be surprised if they had found items for the baby that they'd have upgraded the arrest so soon to gross negligence manslaughter.

JMO.

 

[CaptainNancy]

For those who wonder about the police’s initial tactics, I think it is worth studying the facts in detail

There is a lot of criticism of LE on SM at the moment, mostly by people who haven’t actually read all the details from the beginning.

Criticism of the police (and social services) matters. Because the more armchair detectives decide the police aren’t doing a good job tne more they will descend and cause issues as in the NB case. The more they will decide to help people who are running from social services.

We have a democracy, our LE need to be accountable and open to scrutiny, but through the proper channels and by people with all the facts and knowledge.

There are people on these threads with experience of dealing with the most horrendous of social problems and jnsafe parenting. Empathy and understanding for their views and expertise too!!

 

[everybodhi]

Have LE found where they had been staying, a tent, bedding, and any possessions, or is it only assumption they were sleeping rough and not in someone’s house?
That seems like evidence they should be able to locate with hundreds of LE trained searchers.

 

[infinit]

Have LE found where they had been staying, a tent, bedding, and any possessions, or is it only assumption they were sleeping rough and not in someone’s house?
That seems like evidence they should be able to locate with hundreds of LE trained searchers.

I don't believe they've found it, no. But a quote from allaboutrial's transcript below.

Reporter - Where do you think they were actually staying? We're they living rough? Were they in the allotments? Were they actually on the downs? Where's your focus of the search going?

Detective Superintendent - So the working hypothesis still remains that we believe them to be and have been in the open land and open areas. That is why our focus and our searches is where it is. We are (inaudible) to the fact that our outbuildings is a vast amount of land, I'll bring my colleague in, around the geography.

 

[Lolabear]

The children have a right to privacy and there is no reason to know about guardianship

Oh goodness yes of course they do...I was just saying I'm curious. Usually they try to keep them within the family but the way cm's dad spoke it didn't sound like he had them but who knows! It's a very sad situation all round and for everyone involved

 

[lvbut]

I can only imagine their logic is to deny a baby even exists.

I'm so worried for this baby.

This is what I think. Maybe the silence is not silence, but more, “there was no baby.” Medical professionals haven’t seen/heard of a baby, nobody has actually SEEN a baby, etc. Movement and crying, yes - but no eyes on the baby.

 

[everybodhi]

I don't believe they've found it, no. But a quote from allaboutrial's transcript below.

Yes, I saw that. It appears they have found no evidence yet to support their hypothesis.

 

[Lolabear]

This is what I think. Maybe the silence is not silence, but more, “there was no baby.” Medical professionals haven’t seen/heard of a baby, nobody has actually SEEN a baby, etc. Movement and crying, yes - but no eyes on the baby.

I'm sure DNA from the placenta can confirm that it was cm who gave birth so they can't deny it for long!