ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow - Tylee Ryan - Tammy Daybell - Charles Vallow - *Arrests* #67

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think the prosecution really needs to hyperfocus on well, the prosecution. While some may not agree, what's important is proving Lori Daybell guilty on all charges and winning LWOP as a sentence. Honestly, it would be a bit hard (I would think) to get someone with mental health issues sentenced to death. JMO
 
A reminder of why we're all here:

View attachment 409912
kivi-tv

Kay & Larry, most resilient grandparents ever!

View attachment 409913
Dignity Memorial
View attachment 409914
Gephardt Daily


Awaiting justice....

Who is Laughing and what pictures?

I think the poster meant me, and these pictures?

What I want doesn't matter a bit compared to what Kay & Larry Woodcock want, imho.

Also imho, BottleBlondeGoddess LVD will not be able to Portal out of prison, so hey let her dance around in a cell for several decades.

(Sorry, Idaho taxpayers, you'll foot the bill.)
 
Kay Woodcock made comment on Crime Talk a few minutes ago that Scott Reisch was right all along about the prosecution! Kept making excuses. Dragged their feet. Didn’t turn over evidence. Yep they reached their goal! Make a deal with Lori and keep the religious aspect out of the spotlight. Protecting beliefs of the church at all cost.
SBM. What Church beliefs did they protect? Zombies weren't part of the church doctrine.
 
Last edited:
I think the prosecution really needs to hyperfocus on well, the prosecution. While some may not agree, what's important is proving Lori Daybell guilty on all charges and winning LWOP as a sentence. Honestly, it would be a bit hard (I would think) to get someone with mental health issues sentenced to death. JMO
With DP off the table, it's not a given that she'll get LWOP if convicted. Multiple consecutive sentences could also do the trick.
 
Do you know what was meant by these statements?

"dropping the charges" and "smaller quantum of prejudice"

The judge was speaking about how to balance the scales of fairness, in using those terms.

He had decided (unfortunately, but very properly imo) that it was essentially unfair for the defense to be presented with an impossible amount of evidence, AFTER the last minute (ie after the court's deadline for providing evidence).

By "quantum" he means "amount." By "prejudice" he means unfairness.

I know some are critical, but I think the judge is doing an admirable job in his ongoing decisions to try to keep this case from being overturned later, with all charges dismissed, due to a violation of defendant rights. It's a very small needle he has to thread, and unfortunately the prosecution isn't helping because of their sloppiness with discovery and deadlines.

No matter how much evidence you have, or how sure you are that the defendant is guilty, the prosecution MUST give them a fair trial, with full and timely access to ALL the evidence, so that they have fair and ample opportunity to mount a defense. Appeals courts are very sensitive to this issue, and Boyce is supremely conscious of the tightrope he is being forced to walk.

Boyce doesn't want to dismiss the case entirely, but his choices were really limited, in large part because the prosecution has NOT gotten their butt in gear, and the "speedy trial" issues don't give the judge an option to simply give the defense more time via a later court date.

Striking the death penalty is one reasonable accommodation here imo, as it does give more "time" to the defense without running past the speedy trial barrier. It frees up time for the defense that would otherwise have to be spent in preparing for the mini-trial that would follow (assuming she is found guilty) over the DP being applied. From some of the statements by the defense, I really think that potential (or perhaps "probable") mini-trial had been a significant focus for them, and they essentially just won it. Or maybe we should say that the prosecution just fumbled it away.

HOWEVER, one word of caution was provided here for the prosecution. While offering this immediate remedy, the judge hasn't yet ruled on what to do about the evidence that was late (instead, he said he can, and might, exclude some of it), nor is he working with the assumption that the late evidence includes exculpatory items of evidence (ie, evidence that would be favorable to the defense and tend to show Lori as not being guilty). Failing to turn over, or burying, exculpatory evidence is a "Brady violation" and is the kind of thing that gets a case tossed. For now, and until he might learn otherwise, Boyce has assumed that no Brady violations have happened.

IMO from what he was saying, it's still possible
1 some late evidence may eventually be excluded -- it sounded like Boyce left the door ajar for the defense to make item-by-item objections to such pieces if/when they are entered in the trial.
2 bigger penalties could be applied later IF the defense discovers exculpatory evidence in the late pile of evidence handed over in a mountain for them to sift through.

JMO on listening to and weighing the judge's full ruling
 
The judge was speaking about how to balance the scales of fairness, in using those terms.

He had decided (unfortunately, but very properly imo) that it was essentially unfair for the defense to be presented with an impossible amount of evidence, AFTER the last minute (ie after the court's deadline for providing evidence).

By "quantum" he means "amount." By "prejudice" he means unfairness.

I know some are critical, but I think the judge is doing an admirable job in his ongoing decisions to try to keep this case from being overturned later, with all charges dismissed, due to a violation of defendant rights. It's a very small needle he has to thread, and unfortunately the prosecution isn't helping because of their sloppiness with discovery and deadlines.

No matter how much evidence you have, or how sure you are that the defendant is guilty, the prosecution MUST give them a fair trial, with full and timely access to ALL the evidence, so that they have fair and ample opportunity to mount a defense. Appeals courts are very sensitive to this issue, and Boyce is supremely conscious of the tightrope he is being forced to walk.

Boyce doesn't want to dismiss the case entirely, but his choices were really limited, in large part because the prosecution has NOT gotten their butt in gear, and the "speedy trial" issues don't give the judge an option to simply give the defense more time via a later court date.

Striking the death penalty is one reasonable accommodation here imo, as it does give more "time" to the defense without running past the speedy trial barrier. It frees up time for the defense that would otherwise have to be spent in preparing for the mini-trial that would follow (assuming she is found guilty) over the DP being applied. From some of the statements by the defense, I really think that potential (or perhaps "probable") mini-trial had been a significant focus for them, and they essentially just won it. Or maybe we should say that the prosecution just fumbled it away.

HOWEVER, one word of caution was provided here for the prosecution. While offering this immediate remedy, the judge hasn't yet ruled on what to do about the evidence that was late (instead, he said he can, and might, exclude some of it), nor is he working with the assumption that the late evidence includes exculpatory items of evidence (ie, evidence that would be favorable to the defense and tend to show Lori as not being guilty). Failing to turn over, or burying, exculpatory evidence is a "Brady violation" and is the kind of thing that gets a case tossed. For now, and until he might learn otherwise, Boyce has assumed that no Brady violations have happened.

IMO from what he was saying, it's still possible
1 some late evidence may eventually be excluded -- it sounded like Boyce left the door ajar for the defense to make item-by-item objections to such pieces if/when they are entered in the trial.
2 bigger penalties could be applied later IF the defense discovers exculpatory evidence in the late pile of evidence handed over in a mountain for them to sift through.

JMO on listening to and weighing the judge's full ruling
Thanks Steve, very interesting!
 
Okay - not too sure IF she has a motions hearing today since they had one yesterday. But I did hear in the video that the Judge will make a decision on the late evidence received. So I will go ahead & post this & then I can shorten it up a bit also. :)

Wednesday, March 22nd:
*Motions Hearing (@ 9:30am MT) – ID – Joshua Jaxon (JJ) Vallow (7) & Tylee Ashlyn Ryan (16) (JJ last seen Sept. 23, 2019 & Tylee on Sept. 9, 2019, Rexburg; found June 9, 2020 buried in Daybell’s yard in Salem, ID) – *Lori Norene Vallow aka Lori Norene Daybell (46/now 49) arrested (in Kauai, Hawaii on 2/20/20) & indicted & charged (5/25/21) & re-arraigned (4/19/22) with Count 1 (for Tylee): Conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder & grand theft by deception (for Daybell, Vallow & Alex Cox) & other co-conspirators. Count 2 (for Tylee): 1st degree murder. Count 3 (for JJ): Conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder & grand theft by deception. Count 4(for JJ): 1st degree murder. Count 5 (for Tammy): Conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder. Count 6 (for Tammy): Chad only: 1st Degree murder. Count 7: Lori only: Grand theft (related to social security survivor benefits allocated for the care of minors Tylee & JJ). Plead not guilty. DA will seek DP. DP is off the table (3/21/23). Will be transferred to Ada County jail on 3/25/23. Fremont County
Conspiracy to commit destruction, alteration or concealment of evidence charges dismissed without prejudice on 7/29/21. Fremont County
Resisting or obstructing LE, solicitation of a crime & contempt of court. All charges were dismissed on 1/3/22. Madison County
Trial set to begin on 4/3/23 with jury selection (3 or 4 days) & trial thru 6/9/23 @ 9am. Trial will be held in Ada County. (will last about 10 weeks) Trials have been severed.

Arrest & Grand Jury & Competency & Court info from 3/5/20 thru 3/7/23 reference post #849 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...bell-charles-vallow-arrests-67.655419/page-43

3/8/23: 100+ subpoenas issued all under seal. 3/14/23 Update; Logistics are well underway for the Ada County trial against Vallow. Potential jurors will be answering questionnaires at the Ada County Courthouse on 3/27 & 3/28/23. A court order filed by Judge Steven Boyce says, “because the distribution of questionnaires is an administrative function, only Counsel & the Defendant will be permitted to observe.” Vallow is set to appear in Fremont County Court for a motions hearing Wednesday, 3/15/23, then will be transported to the Ada County Jail by 3/25/23. Only some portions of the jury selection will be simulcast. Sections, where potential jurors are questioned individually, will be closed to the public.
3/13/23: Motions filed: Defendant's rebuttal to State's response to defendant's Motion to Compel. Defendant's response to State's objections. State's objection & response to Defendant's Motion to Dismiss Death Penalty. State's response to Defendant's Motion to Compel.
3/15/23 Update: Defense attorney Jim Archibald arguing the State's objection to defendant's Motion in Limine. The State rejects the defendant's contention that its 13th discovery disclosure was late & calls the Courts attention to a timeline regarding the discovery deadline.
for more info see post #857 & 859 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...bell-charles-vallow-arrests-67.655419/page-43
The other 2 motions was Motion to compel & Motion to dismiss death penalty. Judge is going to issue a decision on all 3 motions on 3/22/23. Judge Boyce says it's frustrating to be dealing with these issues so close to trial but says "that's where we are."
for more info see post #863 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...bell-charles-vallow-arrests-67.655419/page-44

3/21/23 Update: Judge Steven Boyce has granted a motion by Daybell’s attorneys to take the death penalty (filed 3/5/23) off the table. A hearing just wrapped up. This means jury selection & the trial will likely be shorter as there won’t be a sentencing phase. Instead, Judge Boyce will issue Daybell’s sentence if she is found guilty. Judge will give is decision on the late evidence by Prosecutors will be admissible on 3/22/23.
*Chad Guy Daybell (53/now 54) – Pretrial motions hearing on 3/2/23. Trial was set to begin on 4/3/23 was vacated.
*AZ – *Charge Vallow (62) shot on July 11, 2019. Lori Norene Vallow indicted (6/24/21) & served (6/29/21) with 1 count of conspiracy to commit 1st degree murder in the death of former husband Charles Vallow . Maricopa County
7/11/19: In a recording of a 911 call released by Chandler police, Alex Cox said he shot Charles in the chest with his .45 caliber gun in self-defense after Charles struck him in the head with a baseball bat. Chandler police questioned Lori Vallow & Cox but ultimately released them. No criminal charges were filed at the time. After further investigation, Chandler police said they found evidence that Vallow & Cox conspired to kill Charles before the incident occurred. According to the indictment, Lori "agreed with Cox that at least one of them or another" would murder Charles. Jennifer Liewer, a County Attorney's Office spokesperson, said that Vallow's court case in Idaho must be resolved before she can be extradited to Arizona to face this latest charge. Cox died in December 2019. The Maricopa County Medical Examiner's Office determined his cause of death to be bilateral pulmonary thromboemboli, a condition in which one or more arteries in the lungs become blocked by a blood clot.
Reference post #334:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...bell-charles-vallow-arrests-67.655419/page-17
 
I knew the prosecution would screw this up. Gut feeling and boy did they!
Even the defense said they’ve worked with the prosecution on many cases before this and never seen this happen. Something stinks. I agree with Scott Reisch on Crime Talk completely.

Kay Woodcock made comment on Crime Talk a few minutes ago that Scott Reisch was right all along about the prosecution! Kept making excuses. Dragged their feet. Didn’t turn over evidence. Yep they reached their goal! Make a deal with Lori and keep the religious aspect out of the spotlight. Protecting beliefs of the church at all cost.
Same here. They have screwed it up royally.
 
SBM. What Church beliefs did they protect? Zombies weren't part of the church doctrine.
Well, possession of bodies by evil spit is- this little clique just called possessed people zombies.

There is a very valid argument that the church is protecting- or holding sacred- beliefs they also deny that some members get access to the more deeply they are allowed in the temple. Remember when Gibb told her story about her hot flash after being ordained by Lori into the 144k? She told LE it occurred in a place in the temple she can't talk about.

"Zombies" is a red herring. The crimes we are talking about did take place in the context of Morman theology. That does not reduce the defendants' guilt IMO, but it means convicting them is not enough if prevention of similar crimes is desired.

In addition, as Chad said himself when criticized for his teachings, "The church knows what I'm doing." This is per his SIL, who herself had higher leadership roles in the church and also tried to report his apostasy. She basically agreed with Chad on that point- the church did know.

Most LDS followers don't know or believe the dangerous doctrine because the LDS church doublespeaks. Most LDS people are- people. Not defenders of baby- murder.

My claims are primarily from Morman stories, DiffiCULT research, and hidden true crime interviews with Heather Daybell.

MOO
 
Well, possession of bodies by evil spit is- this little clique just called possessed people zombies.

There is a very valid argument that the church is protecting- or holding sacred- beliefs they also deny that some members get access to the more deeply they are allowed in the temple. Remember when Gibb told her story about her hot flash after being ordained by Lori into the 144k? She told LE it occurred in a place in the temple she can't talk about.

"Zombies" is a red herring. The crimes we are talking about did take place in the context of Morman theology. That does not reduce the defendants' guilt IMO, but it means convicting them is not enough if prevention of similar crimes is desired.

In addition, as Chad said himself when criticized for his teachings, "The church knows what I'm doing." This is per his SIL, who herself had higher leadership roles in the church and also tried to report his apostasy. She basically agreed with Chad on that point- the church did know.

Most LDS followers don't know or believe the dangerous doctrine because the LDS church doublespeaks. Most LDS people are- people. Not defenders of baby- murder.

My claims are primarily from Morman stories, DiffiCULT research, and hidden true crime interviews with Heather Daybell.

MOO
Aren't (d)evil possessions found in other churches as well? I don't see it as unique to LDS. IMO Chad took the idea much further to justify murder. He might have also taken some of his doctrine from popular culture. There was a 2017 episode of The Walking Dead with an identical premise about zombies (apparently Chad was a fan of the show). IP commented in his write-up of the doctrine that many of the ideas felt like they were taken from a Dungeons and Dragons manual.
I doubt that the LDS church or Chad's SIL were aware of Chad's zombie doctrine, his judging of people on a light/dark scale and explaining their past lives. AFAIK, he did not speak about his beliefs in church nor had a special status there due to his visionary claims. His books were about an apocalyptic future, not the past.
 
Totally fine by me, except you would have to kill her five times to make it fair.

I have no ethical issues with the DP, its about time and money issues for me. This trial has dragged out long enough already!
Exactly! If we could have Judge Clifton Newman from Alex Murdaugh's trial oversee all the cases I am following, it would be a good day for justice. Everyone predicted the defense atty (Harpootlian), who is known for his courtroom shenanigans, would delay and drag things out. But the judge was fully and fairly in charge of his courtroom. Boyce seems so unsure of the whole dang thing that I have lost all confidence.
 
Aren't (d)evil possessions found in other churches as well?
There's a wide range in how Christians view demons and demon-possession. For many, the spirit world and its population of angels and demons are very real, but God places limits on their abilities (see, for instance, in Job 2:6 -- Satan has to ask God permission to do anything to Job). Some Christian churches teach that God will not allow a Christian to become possessed -- He lives in them in the form of the Holy Spirit, and "no one can serve two masters" (Matthew 6:24). Some teach that demon-possession of biblical eras are what we today classify as major mental health issues -- schizophrenia, bipolar, major depressive disorder, etc. Some teach that demon-possession as found in the New Testament era simply doesn't happen today -- that Satan was more active at that time because it was the era of Christ and the early church.

But all that's a far cry from Chad's "zombie" doctrine, which essentially says that those who have been possessed are beyond help in this life. This is an idea that completely goes against a biblical understanding, since Jesus and his disciples cured the demon-possessed multiple times without destroying the person's physical body.

I doubt that the LDS church or Chad's SIL were aware of Chad's zombie doctrine, his judging of people on a light/dark scale and explaining their past lives. AFAIK, he did not speak about his beliefs in church nor had a special status there due to his visionary claims.
IIRC, he did speak at LDS events. His books were sold in the LDS bookstore. And, IIRC, in his SIL Heather's interview, she said that she went to church leadership about his zombie doctrine and dark/light scale, and they basically brushed it under the rug and allowed Chad to continue in his positions of leadership within his congregation.
 
But all that's a far cry from Chad's "zombie" doctrine, which essentially says that those who have been possessed are beyond help in this life. This is an idea that completely goes against a biblical understanding, since Jesus and his disciples cured the demon-possessed multiple times without destroying the person's physical body.
SBM. Being saved by destroying the physical body was the exact plot of a Walking Dead episode.
IIRC, he did speak at LDS events. His books were sold in the LDS bookstore. And, IIRC, in his SIL Heather's interview, she said that she went to church leadership about his zombie doctrine and dark/light scale, and they basically brushed it under the rug and allowed Chad to continue in his positions of leadership within his congregation.
He spoke at events that were predominantly attended by LDS members. Those events (e.g. PAP conferences) weren't held in church buildings, nor were they organized/endorsed by the church. I doubt his SIL was familiar with the zombie doctrine. That would mean knowing that Chad made zombie proclamations and that people were meant to die. It's very unlikely that Heather knew that he predicted Tammy's death. This doctrine was reserved for his inner circle, not for his family. His SIL wasn't close with Chad nor with Tammy, but she probably knew about his interactions with other locals.
 
Last edited:
Was there an actual motions hearing this morning for Lori? Or did they hold it yesterday?

TIA! - and if another hearing date coming up before trial?
 
Was there an actual motions hearing this morning for Lori? Or did they hold it yesterday?

TIA! - and if another hearing date coming up before trial?
As I understand it, there is no hearing on today's docket. But the judge did commit yesterday Mar 21 to providing a written ruling TODAY Mar 22 on the question and disposition of the late evidence itself.

That's not the same as what happened yesterday.

Yesterday's hearing was related to that issue too, tangentially. But that's because the motion being ruled on, to remove the possibility of DP, was one that cited the lack of timely evidence (and the ensuing impossibility of preparing a proper DP defense because of the lack of adequate time) as one of the reasons. In addition, Judge Boyce's ruling made clear that it was not made as a "penalty" to the state for being late, but rather as the best (and perhaps only) avenue available to both give PROPER time for the defense's right to mount a case while also maintaining the ONLY available path to meeting the defendant's right to a speedy trial. Violate either of those rights, and the state is incredibly likely to lose its case completely at the appeals level, if not before.

Today's ruling, whenever it emerges, will just be written. It will be about penalties that were requested for late disclosure, and how the late evidence itself will be handled. It won't be simple, as some of the recent evidence had already been provided before (allegedly), and there's also the issue of how to handle a witness whose evidence to be provided was already known, but who now has more to say. It's not fair to rule out ALL of it, but how do you have a witness who can only testify to part of what he knows?

There are several possibilities, and more than one of these could happen:
1 Boyce may toss some of the evidence entirely, and do so now
2 He may leave open the door to toss some later, after more time to look at in more detail (and perhaps if given a request by the defense)
3 He may also leave open the door to toss some of it during the trial, as it is about to be used, perhaps at defense request
4 He may be more lenient on allowing some of it, particularly when it's from the same witness that has other previously-provided things to testify about, and less lenient on other similar-and-late items where it might be a new witness entirely
5 He may refer to the ruling yesterday as being all or part of a penalty to the prosecution for the late disclosures (NOTE - imo this is possible, but I personally don't expect it will now be labeled a penalty and suspect it may not be mentioned at all today).

One other note. I think there will be much ado about the written ruling TODAY. But I think it will be kneejerk and media hype level, because I think Boyce is carefully working to balance the legal issues of the trial (which he cannot ignore, or sweep under the rug, without making it easy for the case to get tossed on appeal) with the cry for justice from the victims. Boyce HAS TO give the defense a fair shake, with an "or else" hanging over the whole case at a higher level. I don't think the prosecution's case is so easily destroyed, even if they lose some of this late evidence -- haven't they been claiming it's mostly duplicates, and that it's not that important to their case anyhow? I suspect that's likely to prove true.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
92
Guests online
1,336
Total visitors
1,428

Forum statistics

Threads
591,783
Messages
17,958,819
Members
228,606
Latest member
wdavewong
Back
Top