4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 75

[Cool Cats]

MOO they can't so taking the shortcut: supressing evidence, impeaching the witness and the victims will be the route they take.

When the defense has a weak case they can't expect to compensate for that simply by getting incriminating evidence suppressed - omitted - from trial.

I followed a murder trial where the defense filed Motions to suppress evidence.

The defense tried to get expert shoe print testimony suppressed claiming it was pseudoscience. They tried to get ballistics evidence suppressed, Other Acts Evidence suppressed, Co-Defendants' statements suppressed, they tried to stop a Co-Defendant from testifying claiming he is a liar and was dropped on his head in childhood. Etc...

So then the prosecution would file Opposition Motions arguing against the defense's Motions to suppress evidence.

The point is that the judge denied all of the defense's Motions to Suppress evidence and granted all of the prosecution's Motions to allow evidence.

So the defense will have a hard time getting evidence suppressed just because they have a weak case.

I don't know what you mean by impeaching the victims.

The jury will see the victims' family members every day in the gallery and they will not want the families to have to hear disparaging remarks against their loved ones - the daughters and sisters the son and brother.

Hard to impeach a witness who was almost a victim herself and who already gave her statement to LE.
She gave her statement without the outside influence of knowing who BK was and LE is a witness that she wasn't impaired when giving her statement.

2 Cents

 

[maconrich]

I'll report this in case the source isn't allowed here, but the article gives another good summary of geofence warrants including:

"Google also said in court documents that the data provided isn't completely accurate. The company said it estimates it logs where a person is with a 68% chance of accuracy.

"As a result, it is possible that when Google is compelled to return data in response to a geofence request, some of the users whose locations are estimated to be within the radius described in the warrant (and whose data is therefore included in a data production) were in fact located outside the radius," Google said in the documents.

That could be a minor inconvenience if you're using Google Maps to find a store, but a serious flaw if you're using that data in a criminal prosecution."

How police are using protesters' phones against them

Geofence warrants, sometimes known as reverse location requests, allow police get data from all devices in targeted areas.

www.cnet.com

 

[jepop]

The source is an "unnamed neighbor" according to this NYPost article:

"A neighbor of the four slain University of Idaho students says the door of their home was wide open the morning of the murders, according to a new report.

The unnamed neighbor in Moscow, Idaho, told Fox News that the front door of the three-floor home wasn’t shut around 8:30 a.m. Nov. 13."

Idaho students’ front door was left open on morning of murders: neighbor

Thank you so much! Personally, I can't consider that as fact. And if it were to be accepted as fact then the door is open before BK's 8458 number begins pinging off Moscow Cell towers. Per PCA, BK's phone was pinging in Moscow closer to 9am that morning from memory (cannot recall but it wasn't 8.30am). If it's true then more likely, MOO, that a downstairs housemate (BF?) opened the door for an unknown amount of time for some reason. It was cold so may not have been for long (speculation but makes sense IMO).

All the aricle says is
"The unnamed neighbor in Moscow, Idaho, told Fox News that the front door of the three-floor home wasn’t shut around 8:30 a.m. Nov. 13."

Doesn't say it was open at 9am or for how long the door "wasn't shut" or when the door was opened.

More:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1601291856738160641

Thank you for posting. I listened to the report and IMO, the heading of the tweet is at total odds with the reporter's verbal report which is very vague and IMO sheds no further light on the matter at all. MOO

 

[maconrich]

sept 1 is when they would present PC that what they were looking for probably started around then. if you look for my post the contains the Harvard Law review link re geofencing, there's a great, readable breakdown re probable cause. it's really interesting and not legalese. jmo imo ime

editing to add the link:
Geofence Warrants and the Fourth Amendment

remember, LE investigates to get PC to get the warrant, not the other way around (except with geofence warrants, which is why geofence warrants are problematic).

BBM
Problematic to say the least. I have no doubt that if LE used this (geofence warrant) they also used less controversial methods to back up / support what they found. Very detailed article - thank you.

 

[jepop]

[snipped]

Interesting and good observation, but do we know for sure that his phone didn't ping during that time frame?

If we accept the information in the PCA as accurate, see page 15, then yes, we know the 8458 number associated with BK's phone didn't ping off Moscow towers again after Nov 14th. MOO

122922 Affidavit - Exhibit A - Statement of Brett Payne.pdf | PDF Host

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[DeDee]

To me, as a forensics person, it's absolutely the case that there were other footprints. It's not going to be a big issue at the trial in any case. I've explained several times, so I won't again, but you can't have a latent footprint made of bio proteins without another footprint somewhere that isn't latent. If we posit that the murderer got only the tiniest amount of blood on his shoe, then there would be several more latent prints. If we posit that he got "some blood" on his shoe, then they picked those up with luminol.

I also believe he touched the slider on either the way in or out or both. But none of this really matters that much in the long run. It's simply not going to be hard to convince a jury that the murderer walked around the house. I can't imagine spending much time on such an obvious thing. I doubt they'll ever find the actual Van's, but I bet many donuts that they have 1) witnesses who remember seeing him wear Van's (curiously, in my own lab classes, if I ask teammates to describe what their teammates were wearing at the last class - without telling them in advance I'm going to ask - the top thing remembered is...shoes; for women, it's shoes and nail polish, if any) or 2) receipts for Van's. Of course the print will reveal one more little detail about the killer: his shoe size. The latent print, by itself, will also reveal a little about height of arch and toe length (a whole subspecialty in forensic anatomy).

If Kohberger has the same shoe size, same toe lengths and same arch height as the killer, that's just another piece to throw on the pile. If someone can testify to seeing him wear Van's, even better. If there's a receipt for him buying Van's, that's a trifecta on that piece of it.

IMO.

You do impart interesting angles on details. TY

Of course, we don't know if BK purchased Vans while living in Idaho. However, I did find two locations in Moscow that sells Vans. None were found in Pullman.

Zumiez
1850 Pullman Rd
Moscow, ID, 83843
Zumiez in Moscow, ID, 83843

Famous Footwear
2010 W Pullman Road
Moscow, ID, 83843
Famous Footwear in Moscow, ID, 83843

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

BBM
Problematic to say the least. I have no doubt that if LE used this (geofence warrant) they also used less controversial methods to back up / support what they found. Very detailed article - thank you.

I'm glad you found it helpful and yes, problematic to say the least. The hours that they geofenced at first didn't even have BK's phone b/c the assumption is that he turned it off (that's per the PCA). and re the cnet link - yowza! - "That could be a minor inconvenience if you're using Google Maps to find a store, but a serious flaw if you're using that data in a criminal prosecution."

This case is really getting to me because there are so many things that don't make sense if you're not the sort to snap at an easy explanation, and I'm not, so I broke the warrants out into two piles - Before BK and After BK. This is not all of the warrants, just the ones that are specific to BK and the victims.

After BK
11.25 earliest, 11.29 at 12:58 a.m. latest date of IDing him

Kaylee Tinder 1.1.2021. Warrant dated 11.29.22
Why would they look at her Tinder right after IDing BK, why not before?
Kaylee Reddit 1.1.2021. Warrant dated 12.1.22, motion for extension 12.14
Maddie Tinder 1.1.2021. Warrant dated 12.6.22
BK Google 1.1.2021. Warrant dated 1.3.23

Kaylee Google 8.1.2022 Warrant dated 12.5.22.
Kaylee Yahoo 8.1.2022 Warrant 12.1.22
(Right after he moved to WA, and on page 16 of the PCA he used cell resources at King Road residence)

BK Tinder 6.1.2022. Warrant dated 1.25.23 (same date as DropBox)
BK Yik Yak 6.1.2022 Warrant dated 1.25.23 (same date as DropBox)
my best guess, and this is only a guess, is that they had a pretty darned good idea what they were getting from Dropbox. just a guess though.

Dropbox anonymous and warrant dated 1.25.2023
What Dropbox requires: https://help.dropbox.com/transparency/reports
right off their website:
“Search warrants require a showing of probable cause, must meet specificity requirements regarding the location to be searched and the items to be seized, and must be reviewed and signed by a judge or magistrate. Search warrants may be issued by local, state, or federal governments, and may only be used in criminal cases. In response to valid search warrants, we may produce non-content and content information.”

Door Dash 1.1.2022 to present Warrant dated 12.6.22 - same date as anonymous Tinder
Tinder 19 or 20 redacted 11.3.2022 to present. Warrant dated 12.6.22
Then finding something
Tinder from March 1, 2021 to March 31, 2021 for 20 redacted accounts - warrant dated 12.22.2022

 

[maconrich]

@Sister Golden Hair Very interesting. I pulled up the PCA for reference, but I'm afraid my eyes (and brain) are a little too blurry to really sink into the issues you so nicely laid out, so I'll come back to them. But I totally agree that there are things that don't make sense and that easy explanations have been hard (or impossible) to come by.

Sorting into before and after is an excellent idea, and I wanted to slide the 12.6.22 Tinder and DoorDash requests under the request for Maddie's Tinder - again blurry brain.

A couple of things off the top of my head - and please excuse me if they're not overly coherent. Yes, it seems like LE would have requested Kaylee's Tinder right away, especially given the stalker rumor. And it does look like they found something re Tinder to request the information from March and the 20 redacted accounts - which is very curious. I looked at Dropbox and can see the potential for them having a good idea of what they would find. Since they went to the source, I guess it wouldn't have mattered if BK had deleted the information from his devices. (Although he might not have.)

Again, very interesting and I'll look and think more when my brain is willing to cooperate.

 

[jepop]

An analysis of the AT&T Phone Company Warrants.

References to PCA are all from pages 16 and pp11-12

122922 Affidavit - Exhibit A - Statement of Brett Payne.pdf | PDF Host

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1. Sealed AT&T. As sealed, harder to take an educated guess but IMO this is probably the Second Warrant LE applied for on 23rd Dec (and returned same day) as per PCA (p16) for historical records/ping data relating to BK phone number. The motion and sealing dates are the same as the First AT&T 23rd Dec warrant detailed below. That the warrant remains sealed could make sense if it is for all historical data for BK number since opening Acc in June 2022 as per details revealed in PCA (p16). MOO

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823 Order to Seal - ATT.pdf

-Initial Motion to seal: 6th/7th? Jan 2023.
*interfere with LE proceedings
*invasion of privacy
*Confidential source; and
*Investigative techniques and procedures

-Initial Order to Seal based on Motion: 7th Jan 2023.

- Second Order to Seal: 27 Feb 2023.
*Disclose investigative techniques and procedures
*Intimate facts or statements

2. Sealed and Redacted AT&T. IMO, extremely likely to be AT&T Warrant of 23rd Dec 2022 as referred to in PCA (p16), for data for 24 hours surrounding murders, for account associated with BK's number. MOO

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823%20Order%20to%20Seal%20and%20Redact%20-%20ATT%201.pdf

-Served and Returned: 23rd Dec 2023.

"...the AT&T account associated with the phone number...[blank]... between November 12, 2022 at 12:00 am. PST to November 14,2022 at 12:00 am. PST. Information should include user accomt information, location data,and stored communications held by AT&T, described in further detail as follows..."

-Return of Inventory notified to Court: 6 Jan 2023.

-Initial Motion to Seal: 6th/7th? Jan 2023
*interfere with LE proceedings
*invasion of privacy
*Confidential source; and
*Investigative techniques and procedures

-Initial Order to Seal based on Motion: 7th Jan 2023

-Order to Seal and Redact: 27 Feb 2023.
*Intimate facts or Statements
*Preserve Right to a fair trial.

3. Sealed and Redacted AT&T Cell Tower for GPS Co-ordinates. IMO, highly likely to be one of the warrants referred to in PCA (p11-12), to obtain cellular data on devices utilising tower coverage on Nov 13th between 3 am and 5am (a geo fence warrant if I understand correctly).MOO

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823%20Order%20to%20Seal%20and%20Redact%20-%20ATT%201.pdf

-Served and Returned: 17th November 2022

"...for records and information associated with certain cellular towers (“cell
towers”) and records generated by the cellular network that are in the possession, custody,and/or control ofAT&T, hereafier “the Service Provider,” a cellular service provider; and data is in possession of the Service Provider and that the data may contain of a homicide between November 13, 2022 fiom 3:00 a.m. to 5:00 am. (Pacific Standard Time)..."

-Return of Inventory notified to Court: 30th Nov 2022.

-Initial Motion to Seal: 30th Nov 2022
*interfere with LE proceedings
*invasion of privacy
*Confidential source; and
*Investigative techniques and procedures

-Initial Order to Seal based on Motion: 1 Dec 2022

-Order to Seal and Redact: 27 Feb 2023
*Intimate facts or Statements
*Protect Investigative techniques and procedures.

ETA: Another reason why I'm guessing the Sealed Warrant number 1 above is probably the historical BK phone data warrant referred to in the PCA (p16) is because that return inventory (If I am correct) would contain details of the at least 12 Pings referred to in the PCA, perhaps including time ranges and dates that investigators chose not to reveal in the PCA. This would make partial sense of the reasons that given for the warrant to remain totally sealed and not simply redacted ie protect investigative techniques and procedure, protect LE proceedings etc. Also there is no other warrant for AT&T listed (at this point in time at least) and the PCA makes clear LE applied for the two warrants re BK's number on 23rd Dec. MOO

 

[jepop]

I don't feel he would have worn the sheath. It's not something that is overly comfortable, if you're not used to them and there isn't a lot of room in a small car for a sheathed knife over a foot long on your hip.

I have spent time with first time hunters and people who have had to put down livestock for the first time and adrenaline compounded with the reality of death and blood cause them to react much differently than you expect.

I think his game plan was simplistic in the sense that he expected his victims were asleep, which didn't happen, the dog may have been agitated, a roommate reportedly shouted for quiet, as well as the reality of taking human lives very likely distracted him from small details, like the sheath.

@ktm44, I think you might have accidentally attributed to me the post you are replying to? I didn't write the post, don't know much about how folk carry big knives around!

 

[jepop]

Gosh, I've been trying to get my head around what can be potentially forensically extracted from a modem, router or blue tooth router/thingy (was there one of these in KGs room?). Reason being, trying to guess at the DEc 1 sealed warrant for Police Forensic lab in Coeur dAlene. Could the identifier numbers of wireless devices that were nearby to the King Road residence (ie from neighbours or passersby in cars or visitors to neighbours) be extracted from the logs of routers/modems/bluetooth routers inside the King Road Home by this police forensic lab?

Sealed Warrant for Coeur dAlene Police Forensic Lab. First Motion to Seal dated DEC 1 2022.
https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case...eur dAlene Police Department Forensic Lab.pdf

And I'm also pondering the completely sealed warrant here:

Unnamed Sealed Warrant: First Motion to Seal dated 16 Nov 2022. So IMO The Warrant return of Inventory woukld have had to have been prior to Nov 16.

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/022823%20Order%20to%20Seal.pdf

This (above) is the earliest warrant released to date. Sealing on Nov 16th was based on the usual four reasons:

"1. Interfere with enforcement proceedings;
2. Constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy,
3. Disclose the identity of a confidential source; and
4. Disclose investigative techniques and procedures"

And the Court Order of 27 Feb 2023 gives these reasons for the continued complete non-disclosure:
"(l) The documents contain highly intimate facts or statements, the publication of which would be highly objectionable to a reasonable person;
(2) The documents containfacts or statements that might threaten the safety of or endanger the life or safety of individuals; and
(3) Disclosure would constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy."

Could this warrant have been be for the forensic extraction of all wireless identifier numbers that "shook hands" with devices inside 1122 King Road on the night or say in the 24 hours surrounding the murders? There would be a lot of ID numbers that would require protection. Just speculation and pondering.

From the Return of Inventory from this earliest warrant, could LE then have acquired the specific five wireless numbers for follow up on the 17th November via the two warrants listed below? Both served on 17th November and both returned with requested information by 18th Nov 2022.

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Seal%20%20Redact%20-%20T-Mobile.pdf

https://coi.isc.idaho.gov/docs/case/CR29-22-2805/030723%20Order%20to%20Sea%20%20Redact%20-%20Verizon%20Wireless.pdf

Both are for a set number (two for T-Mobile, three for Verizon) of wireless numbers with the subscribers unknown, but being sought through the warrants. MOO from studying these warrants.

I am probably completely off in how LE arrived at the point of getting these last two warrants, but they cannot be through the geo fence warrants LE got for both T-Mobile and Verizon as these were applied for either just after or contemporaneously so the timing does not quite fit. Will not post those here right now only because this post is getting too full of links.

In all events I think these last two warrants listed here show that LE was looking very carefully and seeking specific numbers and identifying information on unknown individuals in the early days of the investigation who they had reason to believe were in the vicinity of the scene. None of these investigations lead to an arrest but I believe LE were definately looking at all possibilities from the get go. MOO

 

[maskedwoman]

Just wondering how BK's phone would've been able to 'try to connect' to the murder house's network, if BK's phone was in airplane mode or turned off, as LE has suggested it was?

I didn't mean the night of the murders. I believe SG meant that it happened on other nights, when the cell phone tracking shows he was nearby in the wee hours.

 

[maskedwoman]

I mean, someone opened that door. And we know his car was in the area.

Or do you think he left through the front door after the murders and left it open?

MOO

Do we have proof that the door was open that morning? I know a neighbor said it was, but has that been confirmed? IIRC, it was attempted earlier but no one could find a picture or any statements confirming? MOOooo

 

[maskedwoman]

I had a sudden thought during my morning commute - as far as I recall, we haven't heard a peep about LE trying to follow BK's route through the countryside early that morning. If we can surmise it might have been undertaken for the sole purpose of ditching evidence, LE certainly would have had this thought as well. I don't believe LE hasn't at least tried to find something along that route.

There have been some leaks since the gag order was put in place, but nothing really substantive, some truly questionable/laughable, and nothing at all very recently. The press has been reduced to quoting other inmates for the past few weeks. And LE was very very busy and kept it very very quiet just before the arrest. I think there is a strong chance LE might have found physical evidence that we won't hear about until it's either introduced as evidence or unsealed. Tick tock!! MOOooo

 

[deugirtni]

I mean, someone opened that door. And we know his car was in the area.

Or do you think he left through the front door after the murders and left it open?

MOO

Sorry, I am always behind.. plus I have not been able to read anywhere near all of the posts in these BK threads - can you remind me please how we 'know' BK's car was in the area? Is it because of phone records?

How do we know it wasn't left open all night, from whenever the murderer may have entered and/or left the premises? As far as I have read, a neighbor reported to Fox News that the front door was 'wide open' at 8:30am. But from what I am seeing, phone records show BK in WA until 9am, and not utilizing the cell towers near the murder house until between 9:12am and 9:21am. But yet the only person telling us about the door being open (to my knowledge?) is saying it was already open at 8:30am, while BK was still at his apartment in Washington.

What if the murders happened later than the police 'believe', while DM and everyone else were actually sleeping? Have we heard an official TOD from the ME? Everything I've seen to date is focusing on 4am to.. 4:17am(?).. but yet 911 wasn't called until... noon(?).. DM says she saw a masked male in that time range, but AFAIK there has been no report of DM saying he was covered in blood, that he was holding a knife, etc. What if this male was a visitor prior to the murders? What if the murders took place at 6am? Or 5am?

So yeah, 'someone' opened that door. We don't know for sure yet who the 'he' is, what time the door was opened, for how long it had been open before the neighbor saw it at 8:30am, etc.

from the PCA:
Further review indicated that the 8458 Phone utilized cellular resources on November 13, 2022 that are consistent with the 8458 Phone leaving the area of the Kohberger Residence at approximately 9:00 a.m. and traveling to Moscow, ID. Specifically, the 8458 Phone utilized cellular resources that would provide coverage to the King Road Residence between 9: 12 a,m. and 9:21 am. The 8458 Phone next utilized cellular resources that are consistent with the 8458 Phone traveling back to the area of the Kohberger Residence and arriving to the area at approximately 9:32 a.m.

from Fox News, who interviewed 'the neighbour' the week of December 8, 2022:
The neighbor told Fox News this week that the front door — which opens to the level where two other roommates were unharmed — was wide open around 8:30 a.m. on Nov. 13.

 

[deugirtni]

Speaking of TOD... please enlighten me if there has indeed been a report from the ME who performed the autopsy and estimated the TOD. I would think it might be fairly easy to determine, considering they know that Kernodle had ordered takeout (and know what she ordered) which was delivered at 4am.. and from the progression of digestion.. and if they assume she ate it fairly soon after arrival, should be fairly close estimate?

 

[deugirtni]

I didn't mean the night of the murders. I believe SG meant that it happened on other nights, when the cell phone tracking shows he was nearby in the wee hours.

Is there an article I can look at for what SG said? In the meantime, I will try to find. I would be most interested to know how SG 'knew' these attempts had been made specifically by BK.

ETA: I have looked for articles wherein SG said BK's phone had tried to connect to 1122's internet.. not successful.. horrible sleuther.. can someone please lead me to those articles? TIA!!

 

[deugirtni]

Forgive me if this has been covered previously, I have not noticed anything.

Has anyone noticed on the PCA, the following. Just a mistake? Were one or other of the numbers on one or other of the various records transposed or.. not noticed that they were different? How do we know? Out of the entire PCA, it is only two times this discrepancy is found (out of 41), both times when discussing the phone's use of cellular resources which provided coverage to the murder house. imo.:

One of these occasions, on August 21,2022, the 8458 Phone utilized cellular resources providing coverage to the King Road Residence from approximately 10:34 p.m. to 11:35 p.m. At approximately 11:37 p.m., Kohberger was stopped by Latah County Sheriffs Deputy CPL Duke, as mentioned above. The 8548 Phone was utilizing cellular resources consistent with the location of the traffic stop during this time (Farm Road and Pullman Highway).

and

Further analysis of the cellular data provided showed the 8458 Phone utilized cellular resources on November 13, 2022 consistent with the Phone travelling from Pullman, Washington to Lewiston, Idaho via US Highway 195. At approximately 12:36 p.m., the 8458 Phone utilized cellular resources that would provide coverage to Kate's Cup of Joe coffee stand located at 810 Port Drive, Clarkston, WA. Surveillance footage from the US Chefs Store located at 820 Port Drive, Clarkston, WA and adjacent to Kate's Cup of Joe showed a white Elantra, consistent with Suspect Vehicle 1, drive past Kate's Cup of Joe at a time consistent with the cellular data from the 8548 Phone.

 

[U.N. Known]

When the defense has a weak case they can't expect to compensate for that simply by getting incriminating evidence suppressed - omitted - from trial.

The jury will see the victims' family members every day in the gallery and they will not want the families to have to hear disparaging remarks against their loved ones - the daughters and sisters the son and brother.

Hard to impeach a witness who was almost a victim herself and who already gave her statement to LE.
She gave her statement without the outside influence of knowing who BK was and LE is a witness that she wasn't impaired when giving her statement.

2 Cents

I'm not so sure about that. I imagine that it depends on the jurors which is why jury selection is so important. I have a really strong sense of justice (unusually high, apparently). As a juror, I want to know everything. It's unacceptable to me for am criminals to go free, especially on technicalities. However, I find it equally unacceptable for an innocent person to go to prison because not every angle was explored, even if that means digging into possible motives from within the victims' inner circle.

In this case, as a juror, I'd absolutely want D.M to explain what she saw, heard, and did from the first time she felt compelled to open her door the first time until the moment LE arrived. What she says could benefit either side, depending on what it is and how it's corroborated.

 

[jgarris]

I had a sudden thought during my morning commute - as far as I recall, we haven't heard a peep about LE trying to follow BK's route through the countryside early that morning. If we can surmise it might have been undertaken for the sole purpose of ditching evidence, LE certainly would have had this thought as well. I don't believe LE hasn't at least tried to find something along that route.

There have been some leaks since the gag order was put in place, but nothing really substantive, some truly questionable/laughable, and nothing at all very recently. The press has been reduced to quoting other inmates for the past few weeks. And LE was very very busy and kept it very very quiet just before the arrest. I think there is a strong chance LE might have found physical evidence that we won't hear about until it's either introduced as evidence or unsealed. Tick tock!! MOOooo

I like the gag order for the sake of securing the trial, but the human in me sure does wish I knew what they had! I don't think you're off, here. MOO.