4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered - Bryan Kohberger Arrested - Moscow # 75

[10ofRods]

Apparently, it causes dna to degrade faster.

That's new to me. DNA survives a very long time in any case.

There's woolly mammoth DNA in zoology genetics research:

Paleontologists Find Possible Dinosaur DNA

A report of preserved fragments of nuclei and chromatin in a fossilized femur of a 125-million-year-old Caudipteryx dinosaur elicits skepticism.

www.the-scientist.com

 

[Helechawagirl]

Left them out because pca is designed to get an arrest and not to include everything for conviction? Just speculating here but it makes sense to me.

Or could they have thought the print possibly belonged to someone else as several people were there before police? Maybe didn’t wanna put too much stock in that print.

 

[iamshadow21]

Or could they have thought the print possibly belonged to someone else as several people were there before police? Maybe didn’t wanna put too much stock in that print.

Blood dries faster than you'd think.

The window for when that print could have been left in blood is very small.

MOO

 

[Cool Cats]

Could be...Your post speaks to a more general point too I think. I do believe that LE did not simply drop all other lines of enquiry as soon as BK came on the radar. My sense from all these warrants (so far released that is) is that LE were committed to conducting a competent investigation into these murders and to following all credible angles. Also that they were open to being flexible as new information arose. This is a common theme throughout the many transcripted Press Conferences in the media thread here. Also, from what I can remember the investigation was well funded with many resources made available - specialist FBI, ISP and so forth..MOO

edited spelling

Your right:

"My sense from all these warrants (so far released that is) is that LE were committed to conducting a competent investigation into these murders and to following all credible angles"

By December 19th they had the astronomical amount of 10,000 tips.

They pursued these leads plus any piece of evidence they could link to this case.

This helps explain why there are so many search warrants.

2 Cents

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Thanks. You are right. It was off for two hours, including 30 minutes after the murders.

But what will his explanation be for turning his phone off at a quarter to 3 in the morning? Maybe he attended a 3 a.m. performance of CATS...?

Well, I just thought I'd provide the actual times because it's more dramatic otherwise. I don't know what his excuse will be. I could explain why it could happen to me, but I don't think that would get us anywhere.

 

[Bogbacal2]

it doesn't make sense to me at all, and it is to get an arrest - and a search warrant - and WA courts are much pickier, but some of us are going to believe that and some aren't, and I'll just keep searching for fresh ideas because I'm all out jmo imo

My brain is frazzled at this point, so I may look back at this later and wonder what the heck I was thinking. Couple of questions/comments. When DM and BF called friends to come over, before LE arrived, <modsnip - no link> Would they have not gotten blood on their shoes? Assuming blood from EC and XK would have been on the floor.
Suppose ruling out/comparing prints found to those of friends, others in the house is something LE would do?
Also, 10ofRods made me feel better about the “latent print”. Here is his post if anyone missed it. Ty again!

To me, as a forensics person, it's absolutely the case that there were other footprints. It's not going to be a big issue at the trial in any case. I've explained several times, so I won't again, but you can't have a latent footprint made of bio proteins without another footprint somewhere that isn't latent. If we posit that the murderer got only the tiniest amount of blood on his shoe, then there would be several more latent prints. If we posit that he got "some blood" on his shoe, then they picked those up with luminol.

I also believe he touched the slider on either the way in or out or both. But none of this really matters that much in the long run. It's simply not going to be hard to convince a jury that the murderer walked around the house. I can't imagine spending much time on such an obvious thing. I doubt they'll ever find the actual Van's, but I bet many donuts that they have 1) witnesses who remember seeing him wear Van's (curiously, in my own lab classes, if I ask teammates to describe what their teammates were wearing at the last class - without telling them in advance I'm going to ask - the top thing remembered is...shoes; for women, it's shoes and nail polish, if any) or 2) receipts for Van's. Of course the print will reveal one more little detail about the killer: his shoe size. The latent print, by itself, will also reveal a little about height of arch and toe length (a whole subspecialty in forensic anatomy).

If Kohberger has the same shoe size, same toe lengths and same arch height as the killer, that's just another piece to throw on the pile. If someone can testify to seeing him wear Van's, even better. If there's a receipt for him buying Van's, that's a trifecta on that piece of it.

IMO.

 

[Nova]

Well, I just thought I'd provide the actual times because it's more dramatic otherwise. I don't know what his excuse will be. I could explain why it could happen to me, but I don't think that would get us anywhere.

Of course. That's what we do here!

Thanks again for the correction! I turn off my phone to reboot or when I'm in a theater. That's it. There's no way I'd have it off at that time of night, even though I am often awake then, or for that long a time period.

If somebody regularly turns their phone off for 2 hours in the middle of the night, I'd love to hear why!

 

[Helechawagirl]

That's new to me. DNA survives a very long time in any case.

There's woolly mammoth DNA in zoology genetics research:

Paleontologists Find Possible Dinosaur DNA

A report of preserved fragments of nuclei and chromatin in a fossilized femur of a 125-million-year-old Caudipteryx dinosaur elicits skepticism.

www.the-scientist.com

“For example, wet or moist evidence that is packaged in plastic will provide a growth environment for bacteria, which can destroy DNA evidence.”

From this link

Understanding DNA Evidence: A Guide for Victim Service Providers

ovc.ojp.gov

I’m no expert but read a bit after seeing that theory posted. BK may have thought he was destroying his dna. I just wonder what was in those bags to cause him to go to all that trouble? Perhaps it wasn’t his dna he was hiding? Perhaps it’s some sort of OCD. I have no clue, but putting it in the neighbor’s trash leads me to believe he was trying to hide something. JMO

 

[Nova]

" The one instruction they struggle with is an instruction to ignore evidence that is presented then stricken by order of the judge."

That^^ is interesting. I have wondered about that because I don't think I'd be able to totally ignore evidence that had slipped in. Like when a witness drops a bombshell and the judge tells the jury to ignore that---I doubt they can all ignore it if it is relevant.

In my personal experience, jurors collaborate to set such things aside. Done right, the deliberation process isn't just 12 people forming 12 individual opinions.

 

[iamshadow21]

My brain is frazzled at this point, so I may look back at this later and wonder what the heck I was thinking. Couple of questions/comments. When DM and BF called friends to come over, before LE arrived, <modsnip> Would they have not gotten blood on their shoes? Assuming blood from EC and XK would have been on the floor.
Suppose ruling out/comparing prints found to those of friends, others in the house is something LE would do?
Also, 10ofRods made me feel better about the “latent print”. Here is his post if anyone missed it. Ty again!

Any blood left on the floor surfaces, if not dry, would have been separated into red cells and plasma by the time the friends arrived. Footprints left in this would look different to footprints left in blood that was freshly spilt, both to the eye, in the case of visible footprints, and latent prints, with the use of forensic techniques (a footprint left in plasma, for example, would be obviously distinct from one left in whole blood under a microscope).

As part of procedure, my understanding is the LE who arrived would have quizzed everyone in that home as to where they went and what they touched. They likely would have taken everyone's shoes for the process of elimination.

If the shoe print was left in separated blood hours old and by the first people to arrive, in my opinion it wouldn't be in the PCA, because they would have ruled it out as being relevant to the crime almost immediately, certainly weeks before the PCA was being written.

If people want to see what blood looks like when it's separated, this link has some pictures.

The Morphology of Drying Blood Pools

The science is also interesting, but the maths side of it is above my head.

MOO

 

[Twistinginthewind]

Anyone have any idea what the "organizing trash into separate zip loc baggies" means?

It's a weird kind of thing for most people to do, is all I can think it means.

Why would the average Joe care about or go to the trouble to organize their personal trash and sequester it in separate ziploc(k) baggies?

Don't most people just throw their trash away in the household trashcan or bin and then it goes out to the curb once a week for pickup by the neighborhood service or they bag it up and take it to the transfer station/landfill and fuggedaboutit?

LE may have disclosed that (IMO) weird behavior of his "upon his arrest" as a follow-on to them observing BK disposing of trash in neighbors' bins in the wee hours (I think a few days before his arrest), cuz it's unusual and could be considered 'suspicious behavior' if he was paranoid about his DNA being on things that 'went out to the street' and became part of the public domain that LE may access and test?

I do know some frugal people who separate their personal trash (that can't be recycled or composted or burned) and collect it in grocery bags that they dispose of in public trash receptacles on the odd day out at the market or wherever, so they don't have to pay for trash service.

But we don't know if this was the case for the Kohberger residence and whether BK was just going "the extra mile" to put his trash into separate baggies for innocent reasons or had some obsessive tendencies to "see to his own trash" and dispose of it down the road as a matter of course.

MOO

 

[katydid23]

When the defense has a weak case they can't expect to compensate for that simply by getting incriminating evidence suppressed - omitted - from trial.

I followed a murder trial where the defense filed Motions to suppress evidence.

The defense tried to get expert shoe print testimony suppressed claiming it was pseudoscience. They tried to get ballistics evidence suppressed, Other Acts Evidence suppressed, Co-Defendants' statements suppressed, they tried to stop a Co-Defendant from testifying claiming he is a liar and was dropped on his head in childhood. Etc...

So then the prosecution would file Opposition Motions arguing against the defense's Motions to suppress evidence.

The point is that the judge denied all of the defense's Motions to Suppress evidence and granted all of the prosecution's Motions to allow evidence.

So the defense will have a hard time getting evidence suppressed just because they have a weak case.

I don't know what you mean by impeaching the victims.

The jury will see the victims' family members every day in the gallery and they will not want the families to have to hear disparaging remarks against their loved ones - the daughters and sisters the son and brother.

Hard to impeach a witness who was almost a victim herself and who already gave her statement to LE.
She gave her statement without the outside influence of knowing who BK was and LE is a witness that she wasn't impaired when giving her statement.

2 Cents

I really hope the defense doesn't try to impeach the victims. But I do think it is still a possibility that they try and imply that one or two or more of the deceased victims was up to no good before the slayings. Like they were buying or selling drugs, maybe from the house.
They could even try to bring in the previous drug arrests from some of the family members to try and muddy things up.

 

[katydid23]

That's really interesting. According to my students, Vans are for people older than them (the average age in the class I asked is 19). They regard Vans-wearing as something that 30 year olds do to pretend to be skaters, a category of people who are regarded as fun-loving and non-serious. Of course, this is California, so I have no idea what shoes mean in Idaho. But I'm guessing the marketing of Vans is pretty much the same all over.

So the shopping may be better in Moscow, for real. Zumiez is a chain that exists in my own local mall, it is oriented towards skaters and surfers and my kids stopped shopping there right around high school graduation time, but they are girls and I think the store is still frequented by a slightly older group.

Vans are known for being "non-slip" (on a skateboard), for being able to abruptly stop one's feet in case of emergency, etc. They are also easy to put on and take off, etc.

On the topic of clothing, someone yesterday pointed out that Carrhardt coveralls (sp?) do not have long pockets (the way my new raincoat does). The knife users in my family believe BK put the sheath in his pocket, but that it fell out and he didn't realize it until he got to the car to bag his stuff and hide it in the trunk.

Most of the above is speculation or opinion (except for the part about what my students said and what one WSer said about the coveralls).

The devil is in the details. IMO.

I must have purchased a dozen pair of Vans when my son was a teen and even a preteen. It was the only brand he'd wear but he is now 34. So I can see why they are now considered 'for older people.' I think he does occasionally wear them still because he says they are very comfy for wide feet.

 

[Cool Cats]

I really hope the defense doesn't try to impeach the victims. But I do think it is still a possibility that they try and imply that one or two or more of the deceased victims was up to no good before the slayings. Like they were buying or selling drugs, maybe from the house.
They could even try to bring in the previous drug arrests from some of the family members to try and muddy things up.

Opinion

Prosecutors would object as irrelevant hearsay and judge would sustain that line of questioning. I don't think there would even be any openings for that line of inquiry. Not everything can be brought up in trial, there has to be certain openings to bring up certain lines of questioning.

What are some common objections?

Here are some common reasons for objecting, which may appear in your state’s rules of evidence.

www.womenslaw.org

 

[jepop]

Or could they have thought the print possibly belonged to someone else as several people were there before police? Maybe didn’t wanna put too much stock in that print.

Personal opinion only but I don't think the sworn Affiant would risk inadvertently or deliberately misleading the judge by referring to a shoe print that he is aware might belong to one of the friends/housemates who were in the house before police arrived. I think LE would have done their due diligence before including the shoe print. By that I mean that all known people in the house would have been eliminated as leavers of the print through examination of their footwear or however it is that competent LE conduct such an undertaking. MOO

 

[katydid23]

Agree about the shoes distinctive tread, my point was that as far as I know, there is no evidence BK owned a pair of Vans shoes, correct?

I bet they have some evidence of that by now. Just guessing but I think they might find receipts or bank records or even pictures of him wearing some or testimony from some of his students or colleagues saying he wore them to class. JMO

 

[katydid23]

Quote:

"If he were really smart, he'd have bought a special pair of shoes for his kill kit in a different size than what he usually wears"

Thought you'd find it interesting that in a murder case and trial I followed 2 of the murderers did just that - wore shoes of the wrong size.

2 of the murderers, brothers, had their mom buy them shoes to wear the night they helped commit 8 murders.
They had their mom buy them shoes in the wrong sizes, in sizes they did not wear. They also had her buy them shoes of a brand and style they never wore.

No Van shoes were recovered from the Pennsylvania house, apartment or car.

If the "invisible" Van shoe print was BK's, it is possible that BK normally doesn't wear this specific type of shoe and only bought it for the murders. It is also possible that BK bought a size he never wears.

New Balance shoes
2 pair of dark colored boots
1 pair of brown boots
Hiking boots
Boot - found in car
Pair of black and white size 13 Nike shoes - he was wearing these so he is probably a size 13 (person warrant)

It is easy to wear a bigger size shoe but much harder for a size 13 foot to even fit in a smaller shoe. Especially if someone is trying to run around and get in life and death struggles with 4 victims. JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

I bet they have some evidence of that by now. Just guessing but I think they might find receipts or bank records or even pictures of him wearing some or testimony from some of his students or colleagues saying he wore them to class. JMO

Despite all the amateur mistakes BK made, I find it hard to believe he would wear the brand and style of shoes that he normally wears. Ironically, there is a photo of him in jail clothes wearing loafer style Van shoes.

We know 2 of his shoe styles:

New Balance
Nike

However, I agree, they looked for evidence of him buying Van shoes if they think that print is his.

 

[IDK]

Of course. That's what we do here!

Thanks again for the correction! I turn off my phone to reboot or when I'm in a theater. That's it. There's no way I'd have it off at that time of night, even though I am often awake then, or for that long a time period.

If somebody regularly turns their phone off for 2 hours in the middle of the night, I'd love to hear why!

What if his phone charge ran out and the phone powered off for that simple reason? Is that a possibility— wouldn’t it show up the same as a phone that was manually turned off?

Please correct me if I’m wrong!

 

[Sleuth2010]

Despite all the amateur mistakes BK made, I find it hard to believe he would wear the brand and style of shoes that he normally wears. Ironically, there is a photo of him in jail clothes wearing loafer style Van shoes.

We know 2 of his shoe styles:

New Balance
Nike

However, I agree, they looked for evidence of him buying Van shoes if they think that print is his.

Excuse me if I'm wrong or missed something, but didn't Ethin's twin enter the house? He arrived before police? and went in to check ? Maybe he left a shoe-print prior to realizing the severity of the situation? jmo imoo