UK - Nurse Lucy Letby Faces 22 Charges - 7 Murder/15 Attempted Murder of Babies #15

[esther43]

Personally I think late may. We lose quite a lot of sitting days due to Easter.
It will of overrun by two months at that point near enough.

Yes, in cases such as Beverley Allitt, it was all about a craving for attention and sympathy and drama. They are incapable of any feeling for other people's suffering, but good at acting as if they care.

I'm imagining a potentially timid and geeky person who quietly enjoys the drama.
But potentially not a 'life and soul of the party' type who enjoys the limelight.

 

[Dotta]

I'm imagining a potentially timid and geeky person who quietly enjoys the drama.
But potentially not a 'life and soul of the party' type who enjoys the limelight.

Not only "drama" but also power over others:
Babies, medical staff and parents of victims.

Only she (allegedly) knew what was happening.

Like "God".

Omnipotent.

JMO

 

[Dotta]

If she was convicted, I think this case would spawn an exceptionally large amount of literature and TV programming, even by the standards of particularly notorious criminal cases.

It would be better to improve safety of vulnerable patients by upgraded safeguarding.

After all, there is a wealth of descriptions of all kinds of SKs out there

JMO

 

[ColourPurple]

New podcast - Baby P

‎The Trial: Brianna Ghey: Lucy Letby: The Triplets, Part 2: Baby P, “He’s not leaving here alive, is he?” she asked a doctor... on Apple Podcasts

‎Show The Trial: Brianna Ghey, Ep Lucy Letby: The Triplets, Part 2: Baby P, “He’s not leaving here alive, is he?” she asked a doctor... - 27 Mar 2023

podcasts.apple.com

 

[Phoenix Lazarus]

It would be better to improve safety of vulnerable patients by upgraded safeguarding.

After all, there is a wealth of descriptions of all kinds of SKs out there

JMO

I'm sure the books and programmes can be supplied at the same time as the increased precautions. It won't be writers and television producers that do the latter, nor hospital management that does the former; so so one won't come at the others' expense.

 

[Dotta]

I'm sure the books and programmes can be supplied at the same time as the increased precautions. It won't be writers and television producers that do the latter, nor hospital management that does the former; so so one won't come at the others' expense.

Im afraid tv "entertainment" will take advantage

How many such programmes have already been shown?

Hundreds.

And as for precautions?

The number of "medical killings" and this case is the answer.

JMO

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

New podcast - Baby P

‎The Trial: Brianna Ghey: Lucy Letby: The Triplets, Part 2: Baby P, “He’s not leaving here alive, is he?” she asked a doctor... on Apple Podcasts

‎Show The Trial: Brianna Ghey, Ep Lucy Letby: The Triplets, Part 2: Baby P, “He’s not leaving here alive, is he?” she asked a doctor... - 27 Mar 2023

podcasts.apple.com

These podcasts are much easier to follow and get a sense of the sequence of events. I was struck by the detail that after one of the morning collapses, the baby was put on a ventilator. Immediately, he became active again and began fighting the ventilator. They decided to sedate and paralyze him. Not long after, the baby had another collapse/desaturation. LL was at the bedside, alone, and said that the baby appeared to have dislodged his breathing tube. He was re-intubated.

 

[esther43]

These podcasts are much easier to follow and get a sense of the sequence of events. I was struck by the detail that after one of the morning collapses, the baby was put on a ventilator. Immediately, he became active again and began fighting the ventilator. They decided to sedate and paralyze him. Not long after, the baby had another collapse/desaturation. LL was at the bedside, alone, and said that the baby appeared to have dislodged his breathing tube. He was re-intubated.

The rapid recoveries are quite remarkable aren't they? Never heard of that before.
Have you ever heard of a pre-term baby fighting ventilation? I just find this peculiar. I only ever heard of a babies weakening over time as suitable candidates for ventilation, usually they are tired and listless and wouldn't have that fight in them. (Or they are sedated and ventilated because of surgery)
To me, the fact the baby was fighting the ventilator is an indicator that the problem was quite acute. The massive dips is saturations were there but the presentation of the baby does not match with a baby who has deteriorated due to fighting off infection.

 

[ColourPurple]

These podcasts are much easier to follow and get a sense of the sequence of events. I was struck by the detail that after one of the morning collapses, the baby was put on a ventilator. Immediately, he became active again and began fighting the ventilator. They decided to sedate and paralyze him. Not long after, the baby had another collapse/desaturation. LL was at the bedside, alone, and said that the baby appeared to have dislodged his breathing tube. He was re-intubated.

Yeah appeared to have dislodged his breathing tube whilst sedated/paralysed. And Dr NiceGuy had been called back to him (sedated) after he'd left to go to the tea room to get a drink with a female doctor. He was called back before the kettle even had chance to boil.

And the reason Dr NIceGuy was there in the first place was because when a different doctor responded to LL's first crash call for Baby P, one of the nurses (the Dr couldn't remember which) asked whether Dr NiceGuy was in and asked if he could attend as "The nurse wanted him in particular" to attend. Which he did after being bleeped.

source:
Podcast ‎The Trial of Lucy Letby: The Trial of Lucy Letby, Episode 25: The Triplets, Part 2: Baby P, “He’s not leaving here alive, is he?” she asked a doctor... on Apple Podcasts

 

[Sweeper2000]

is anyone else aware that during the resus for baby p LL specifically asked for dr choc to attend the resus?
hadn’t heard that elsewhere but that’s in the podcast.

 

[esther43]

Yeah appeared to have dislodged his breathing tube whilst sedated/paralysed. And Dr NiceGuy had been called back to him (sedated) after he'd left to go to the tea room to get a drink with a female doctor. He was called back before the kettle even had chance to boil.

And the reason Dr NIceGuy was there in the first place was because when a different doctor responded to LL's first crash call for Baby P, one of the nurses (the Dr couldn't remember which) asked whether Dr NiceGuy was in and asked if he could attend as "The nurse wanted him in particular" to attend. Which he did after being bleeped.

source:
Podcast ‎The Trial of Lucy Letby: The Trial of Lucy Letby, Episode 25: The Triplets, Part 2: Baby P, “He’s not leaving here alive, is he?” she asked a doctor... on Apple Podcasts

Wow. 'The nurse wanted him in particular' I bet he was there with cheese rolls fully in situ ready to assist 'poor lucy'.
She did warn him that anything could happen. It is a 34 weeker after all.

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

The rapid recoveries are quite remarkable aren't they? Never heard of that before.
Have you ever heard of a pre-term baby fighting ventilation? I just find this peculiar. I only ever heard of a babies weakening over time as suitable candidates for ventilation, usually they are tired and listless and wouldn't have that fight in them. (Or they are sedated and ventilated because of surgery)
To me, the fact the baby was fighting the ventilator is an indicator that the problem was quite acute. The massive dips is saturations were there but the presentation of the baby does not match with a baby who has deteriorated due to fighting off infection.

Agree completely. A sick baby doesn't just immediately get better when put on a ventilator.

 

[Sweeper2000]

Can anyone help me out here with something I’m wondering and listening to the podcast it seems like poor baby P went through a lot. After all these cases its still piercing to hear the sequences of events.

I’m wondering if anyone else got the same as me and if I’m reading the podcast right. It seems like a weird twist to the story. During the collapse allegedly caused by ll it seems that a punctured lung was discovered, I’m wondering what one could expect from an injury like that? The way the podcast reads it’s almost like it wasn’t considered a potential cause of the collapse whereas to me a punctured lung sounds quite serious Especially when it isn’t known about. was Also concerning to hear dr brearey say high ventilation pressures could have caused it.

 

[esther43]

Agree completely. A sick baby doesn't just immediately get better when put on a ventilator.

Magic ventilator. That's it!!

 

[esther43]

Can anyone help me out here with something I’m wondering and listening to the podcast it seems like poor baby P went through a lot. After all these cases its still piercing to hear the sequences of events.

I’m wondering if anyone else got the same as me and if I’m reading the podcast right. It seems like a weird twist to the story. During the collapse allegedly caused by ll it seems that a punctured lung was discovered, I’m wondering what one could expect from an injury like that? The way the podcast reads it’s almost like it wasn’t considered a potential cause of the collapse whereas to me a punctured lung sounds quite serious Especially when it isn’t known about. was Also concerning to hear dr brearey say high ventilation pressures could have caused it.

I haven't heard the podcast yet. Must listen. I was surprised that the pneumothorax occured. The baby was on optiflow for added pressure only and wasn't oxygen dependent.
It was said that the pressures was too high baring in mind the babies low oxygen. Sounds like they weren't optimal but optiflow is quite non invasive compared to intubation, so goodness knows of this could cause a pneumo. I'd be highly surprised.
One thing that does cause a pneumo is a punctured lung as it releases air into the pleural space. But no lacerations for lung identified so I'm guessing it must have been something else. Do we know when in the timeline the pneumo was? The reporting was vague.

 

[Lincoln34]

I don't think that's quite right, to be honest. To be moved from your nursing role to admin is extremely serious - it's rare as hens' teeth & only done if you're not able to fulfil your nursing duties, such as after an injury. To be moved because of suspected incompetence would be devastating and could potentially affect your career.

It’s a small world and I’m surprised that she took the admin role and didn’t try for constructive dismissal . CD is not easy to establish but she might have manufactured a case of CD here to try for a settlement and avoid the awkwardness. The Countess is a hospital where a lot of folks know each other.

 

[Sweeper2000]

I haven't heard the podcast yet. Must listen. I was surprised that the pneumothorax occured. The baby was on optiflow for added pressure only and wasn't oxygen dependent.
It was said that the pressures was too high baring in mind the babies low oxygen. Sounds like they weren't optimal but optiflow is quite non invasive compared to intubation, so goodness knows of this could cause a pneumo. I'd be highly surprised.
One thing that does cause a pneumo is a punctured lung as it releases air into the pleural space. But no lacerations for lung identified so I'm guessing it must have been something else. Do we know when in the timeline the pneumo was? The reporting was vague.

I think the podcast said it was discovered during the collapse or as a result of so presumably was the first they knew of it.

 

[Lincoln34]

They did downgrade the unit in July 2016 and commissioned the independent review by the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health and The Royal College of Nursing, re the increased neonatal mortality rates. Not sure what date they commissioned it but the visit took place September 2016 and the review was published November 2016. Wasn't there then another review of the cases before they approached police in May 2017? So they were doing "something", but why they would want to risk her going back on the ward during that time is beyond me.

ETA this article says they called for RCPCH review in June 2016 and THEN downgraded the unit. Don't know how accurate it is:

Nurse held over 8 baby murders investigated by ANOTHER hospital she worked at

A SECOND hospital is investigating a nurse at the centre of a police probe into the suspected murder of eight babies in Chester. Liverpool Women’s Hospital said today it is assisting detectiv…

www.thesun.co.uk

iMO The rumours locally were not initially in relation to the deaths per se but rather that there was a strategic and political Motivation for downgrading Chester in favour of other centres i’m from Chester and those were the rumours at the time. Obviously the public did not know the extent and specificity of the concerns .

 

[magikarpmagikarp]

I haven't heard the podcast yet. Must listen. I was surprised that the pneumothorax occured. The baby was on optiflow for added pressure only and wasn't oxygen dependent.
It was said that the pressures was too high baring in mind the babies low oxygen. Sounds like they weren't optimal but optiflow is quite non invasive compared to intubation, so goodness knows of this could cause a pneumo. I'd be highly surprised.
One thing that does cause a pneumo is a punctured lung as it releases air into the pleural space. But no lacerations for lung identified so I'm guessing it must have been something else. Do we know when in the timeline the pneumo was? The reporting was vague.

Yeah I have not heard of anyone getting a pneumothorax from a high flow nasal cannula. I googled and I think that is what Optiflow is? I suppose maybe it's possible if grossly misused (flow turned up to 15L?) but can't imagine that happening accidentally. The pneumo was discovered shortly after a successful resuscitation, on x-ray. I can imagine a pneumothorax arising during the process of resuscitation or after being intubated and placed on a ventilator. As you said - from the high pressures needed to ventilate and oxygenate the baby.

 

[esther43]

I haven't heard the podcast yet. Must listen. I was surprised that the pneumothorax occured. The baby was on optiflow for added pressure only and wasn't oxygen dependent.
It was said that the pressures was too high baring in mind the babies low oxygen. Sounds like they weren't optimal but optiflow is quite non invasive compared to intubation, so goodness knows of this could cause a pneumo. I'd be highly surprised.
One thing that does cause a pneumo is a punctured lung as it releases air into the pleural space. But no lacerations for lung identified so I'm guessing it must have been something else. Do we know when in the timeline the pneumo was? The reporting was vague.

It’s a small world and I’m surprised that she took the admin role and didn’t try for constructive dismissal . CD is not easy to establish but she might have manufactured a case of CD here to try for a settlement and avoid the awkwardness. The Countess is a hospital where a lot of folks know each other.

I think the podcast said it was discovered during the collapse or as a result of so presumably was the first they knew of it.

iMO The rumours locally were not initially in relation to the deaths per se but rather that there was a strategic and political Motivation for downgrading Chester in favour of other centres i’m from Chester and those were the rumours at the time. Obviously the public did not know the extent and specificity of the concerns .

Can completely understand the skepticism around the 'people at the top' they wernt wrong that there was something going on there.
Yes there are bidding wars between trusts that may exist outside of all this. I always thought it was pertinent that they were building that new baby unit and all the publicity that was due to bring.
I can't see though, why CoC would want to downgrade to a level 1 is usual circumstances. They would absolutely want to keep their level 2.
Ahead of the independent inquiry there was a peer review of the unit. Certain recommendations came out of that.
However a senior managers response to that scenario is not going to be ' ahh okay then, let's downgrade'
I think it's more likely that senior management tried to keep all this under the radar, to avoid getting downgraded. Then, when they had no choice because they were getting overturned by the consultant team and an investigation was getting launched, suddenly, they were all about 'well we must act immediately and downgrade'
They were knee deep in it, knowing they'd failed to act earlier. What would the public think, if they heard that a potential serial killer had been ignored for so long and the Trust did nothing except for 'get overturned'
They fell back on an old report and blamed it on poor staffing. The consultant were not sucking that up. jmo