4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, Nov 2022 #81

New Posts

Status
Not open for further replies.
Nova said:
Beautifully put, NCW!

Aeschylus covered all the relevant principles and dramatized the problem of personal vengeance (basically, how can it ever end?) in his tragic trilogy, THE ORESTEIA.

Brilliant and, with a good translation, easily readable. And he wrote it all 2,500 years ago!
Click to expand...

And it ends with a jury trial!
 
x_files said:
The UW University of Washington is different than the Washington University in Pullman. I know it's confusing!
Click to expand...
It's probably easier to remember if we call the latter its correct name: "Washington State" (or, in common parlance, "Wazoo", a phonetic interpretation of "WSU").

The U of Washington is commonly called simply "Washington" or "You-Dub" (as in UW).

For those posters who live outside the U.S., most American states have a university that was originally a liberal arts school for gentlemen and is named after the state. These unis are usually called the "University of [name of State]". Examples include University of Florida, University of Michigan, and Kansas University.

Most states also have a second large university that was originally more trade-oriented and focussed on agriculture and/or mining. These unis are called "[name of state] State" (e.g., Michigan State, Kansas State, Oregon State). (Florida State or FSU was originally the state women's college, so it is an exception.)

There are many other exceptions--some schools that were once industry oriented retained their original names (see Oklahoma A&M; and Texas A&M, i.e., The Agriculture and Mechanical College of Texas). In the most populous states (e.g. California, New York, Florida) there are entire systems of state unis with various naming conventions. (See, e.g., UCLA, the "University of California Los Angeles".)

As others have posted above, "Yoo-Dub" is in Seattle and "Wazoo" is in Pullman, nearly 300 miles away.

The distinction between liberal arts colleges and trade schools is largely obsolete: all the big unis offer various options of both.

I hope this helps. Feel free to DM me if I have only made the topic more confusing.
 
Twistinginthewind said:
I think this is it, though it's called an application for the search warrants in PA that contains probable cause, rather than a PCA per se -- like the one for his arrest from Idaho LE, which is also included as an attachment, because the original ID PCA is required to be attached to the application:

READ HERE: Bryan Kohberger Pennsylvania Search Warrant Unsealed
Click to expand...
Thanks so much ….

So they didn’t seize very much from the search in PA…. A total of 9 items … and that list does not appear to show a knife or a sheath????


Do you know if there is another warrant for the trash??? Or a list? TIA

Would also be interesting to know what size shoe print the Police thought the Vans imprint was? It appears BK wears a size 13….

I am a little surprised by the list … I would have thought they would have taken almost everything he owned…. But JMO
 
NuttMegg said:
I was referring to the context within the court. The judge, other prosecution and defense lawyers pronouncing it correctly, except Elaine.

A favorite topic of mine, the Americanization of Spanish words, PlAAno texas, valdEEz Alaska, etc. But it happens in the opposite country too, and some prefer the Americanized version of their own names.
But I'm speaking of highly educated ppl in court, who have the same responsibility as 3J.
Never would expect the man on the street to pay a lot of attention to proper pronunciation of the names of strangers they meet.
Click to expand...
And some people have better ears for the difference than others.

IMOO it is overhasty to assume somebody who uses a VERY COMMON Anglicization of a Spanish surname is doing so out of intentional disrespect.
 
KellySleuth said:
I could be wrong but I don't think grand juries are always impaneled for just one case. The jurors serve for a period of time and they can weigh in on multiple cases during that time. Someone correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not an attorney, this was just my general understanding.
Click to expand...
No, you are correct, as I understand it. I posted as much on the old, now-frozen, thread.

ETA a page back there is a post from someone who found the details on grand juries in both PA and ID. As we suspected, in both states grand jurors serve for an extended time and may deal with more than one case.
 
Last edited:
SLouTh said:
Thanks so much ….

So they didn’t seize very much from the search in PA…. A total of 9 items … and that list does not appear to show a knife or a sheath????


Do you know if there is another warrant for the trash??? Or a list? TIA

Would also be interesting to know what size shoe print the Police thought the Vans imprint was? It appears BK wears a size 13….

I am a little surprised by the list … I would have thought they would have taken almost everything he owned…. But JMO
Click to expand...
You're welcome. Page 9 of the redacted search warrant application I linked to is the PA PCA approving the search warrant for the FBI to search (my words) for items immediately around him where they found him (in his room, IIRC) and arrested him that night only (dated 12/30/22), that short list of 9 items on page 4 that you posted resulted from that search, which was added to the document bundle after they arrested him and collected those items.

After he was arrested, LE got 3 additional search warrants -- 1 for his person, 1 for his parents' house, and 1 for his car, and a much longer list of items was taken into evidence. I don't think I've seen copies of the PCA portion of those 3 search warrants, but the list of items taken from his parents house and car (IIRC) is 4 pages long (has been posted a few times, it's handwritten and the handwriting is not super clear, so.....). It's a pretty long list and includes weapons, knives and a gun, but I don't recall a sheath, although they could have not listed it on purpose or left it vague, like calling it a knife with covering.

That later list of items is here, pages 3-7 of the window paging > thingy:

Full list of items seized from suspect Bryan Kohberger's home revealed

MOO
 
Last edited:
Twistinginthewind said:
You're welcome. Page 9 of the redacted search warrant application I linked to is the PA PCA approving the search warrant for the FBI to search (my words) for items immediately around him where they found him (in his room, IIRC) and arrested him that night only (dated 12/30/22), that short list of 9 items on page 4 that you posted resulted from that search, which was added to the document bundle after they arrested him and collected those items.

After he was arrested, LE got 3 additional search warrants -- 1 for his person, 1 for his parents' house, and 1 for his car, and a much longer list of items was taken into evidence. I don't think I've seen copies of the PCA portion of those 3 search warrants, but the list of items taken from his parents house and car (IIRC) is 4 pages long (has been posted a few times, it's handwritten and the handwriting is not super clear, so.....). It's a pretty long list and includes weapons, knives and a gun, but I don't recall a sheath, although they could have not listed it on purpose or left it vague, like calling it a knife with covering.

That later list of items is here, pages 3-7 of the window paging > thingy:

Full list of items seized from suspect Bryan Kohberger's home revealed

MOO
Click to expand...
Thanks so much, that makes much more sense … the additional warrants ….

I have seen the other list…. (The hand written one starting with “knife” … I will have to look at that again… I had mistakenly thought those items were seized from his unit in Pullman…. )

So we haven’t been able to track down the actual list that the “sheath” was supposedly removed from??? From PA????

Do I have that correct???
 
Last edited:
SLouTh said:
Thanks so much ….

So they didn’t seize very much from the search in PA…. A total of 9 items … and that list does not appear to show a knife or a sheath????


Do you know if there is another warrant for the trash??? Or a list? TIA

Would also be interesting to know what size shoe print the Police thought the Vans imprint was? It appears BK wears a size 13….

I am a little surprised by the list … I would have thought they would have taken almost everything he owned…. But JMO
Click to expand...
Aren't you getting Washington residence search return and PA parent's residence search return mixed up? WA search return is the one with very few items. The WA search was done the day after BK was arrested at his folks place in PA. The PA return did include a couple of knives but nothing to suggest a K-bar type knife.

This link will take you to the PA Court Documents that supply the Return lists from the 'Horses Mouth' so to speak.


PS. Regarding the sheath being removed from a list. There is some confusion here. I believe what is being referred to is the Application for Search Warrant for WA. The sheath was never removed from a list. In the application for WA search warrant the affiant included a Supplemental Disclosure asking the judge to ignore the dna test results on the snap button of the sheath (the sheath was found at the crime scene), and still find for probable cause to issue the search warrant, just in case the dna test result on that snap button was ever found inadmissable as evidence in the future. A safeguard IOWs. So defense cannot argue validity of warrants in the future, should that particular dna test result ever be questioned. The judge agreed to this when ordering the Warrant. MOO

Below are the documents where this can be found. You'll have to wade, but look for "Supplemetal Disclosure re dna test Result'" on pp5-6 of the PDF.



EBM spelling and grammar
 
Twistinginthewind said:
You're welcome. Page 9 of the redacted search warrant application I linked to is the PA PCA approving the search warrant for the FBI to search (my words) for items immediately around him where they found him (in his room, IIRC) and arrested him that night only (dated 12/30/22), that short list of 9 items on page 4 that you posted resulted from that search, which was added to the document bundle after they arrested him and collected those items.

After he was arrested, LE got 3 additional search warrants -- 1 for his person, 1 for his parents' house, and 1 for his car, and a much longer list of items was taken into evidence. I don't think I've seen copies of the PCA portion of those 3 search warrants, but the list of items taken from his parents house and car (IIRC) is 4 pages long (has been posted a few times, it's handwritten and the handwriting is not super clear, so.....). It's a pretty long list and includes weapons, knives and a gun, but I don't recall a sheath, although they could have not listed it on purpose or left it vague, like calling it a knife with covering.

That later list of items is here, pages 3-7 of the window paging > thingy:

Full list of items seized from suspect Bryan Kohberger's home revealed

MOO
Click to expand...
Thank you so very much for this ….(it didn’t occur to me the media would publish the entire lists … I have been going through court documents looking… ) :eek:

So is it

Item # 57
Taylor cutlery knife with leather sheath

That has subsequently been removed from the PA list?? (Perhaps returned?)

Do we have any evidence of that ???? With a legal document???

It may have been removed to avoid confusion ??? With the other “sheath” …

Thanks again @Twistinginthewind :)
 
SLouTh said:
Thanks so much, that makes much more sense … the additional warrants ….

I have seen the other list…. (The hand written one starting with “knife” … I will have to look at that again… I had mistakenly thought those items were seized from his unit in Idaho …. )

So we haven’t been able to track down the actual list that the “sheath” was supposedly removed from??? From PA????

Do I have that correct???
Click to expand...
It's confusing, I'm confused too, possibly... I thought you were asking for the PCA for PA (page 9 of that PDF), but you're looking for the list of items collected based on the search warrant(s), I think, that's in 4 different places, since there were 4 different search warrants for PA (1) items from his parent's house at the time he was arrested, (2) items collected from his parent's house after his arrest, (3) items collected from his car after his arrest, (4) items collected from his person after his arrest in jail. Here are where the lists are, AFAIK:

(1) Arrest items: The handwritten page (of 9 items) on page 4 in the PA PCA document linked above.

(2) Parent's house items: The handwritten 4 page list of items from the post-arrest search of his parent's house linked above. I haven't looked at every word and the handwriting is hard to read, so I don't know if a sheath is mentioned on that list of items.

(3) Car items: This is the search warrant for his car that should have the list of items taken from his car, but I haven't read it:
READ: Search warrant for Bryan Kohberger's car

(4) His person (body): I doubt the search of his person (in jail) will be published, but the Assistant DA Mancuso said at the press conference after his arrest, that that search warrant was for taking photographs of his person and samples from him (e.g., DNA).

To answer your questions, until I read through (2) and (3) (which I haven't), I couldn't say whether there was a knife sheath from searches in PA.

I don't know about the possibility that there is another sealed/confidential search warrant with a knife sheath listed that is not publicly available that went directly to the Grand Jury in secret, and that is the knife sheath there has been discussion about being removed from the list.

MOO
 
SLouTh said:
Thank you so very much for this ….(it didn’t occur to me the media would publish the entire lists … I have been going through court documents looking… ) :eek:

So is it

Item # 57
Taylor cutlery knife with leather sheath

That has subsequently been removed from the PA list?? (Perhaps returned?)

Do we have any evidence of that ???? With a legal document???

It may have been removed to avoid confusion ??? With the other “sheath” …

Thanks again @Twistinginthewind :)
Click to expand...
No problem, it's clear as mud, and I hadn't looked at all those items listed in detail, but now that you bring it up, I do recall the Taylor cutlery knife but not that it had a sheath !

IMO, could be a good possibility that item #57 on the list from his parent's house after his arrest referencing a knife sheath that went with it was decided to be removed to reduce the dang sheath issues ;) Good sleuthing !

ETA: I don't know if there is any published evidence about it at this point.
 
Last edited:
jepop said:
PS. Regarding the sheath being removed from a list. There is some confusion here. I believe what is being referred to is the Application for Search Warrant for WA. The sheath was never removed from a list. In the application for WA search warrant the affiant included a Supplemental Disclosure asking the judge to ignore the dna test results on the snap button of the sheath (the sheath was found at the crime scene), and still find for probable cause to issue the search warrant, just in case the dna test result on that snap button was ever found inadmissable as evidence in the future. A safeguard IOWs. So defense cannot argue validity of warrants in the future, should that particular dna test result ever be questioned. The judge agreed to this when ordering the Warrant. MOO

Below are the documents where this can be found. You'll have to wade, but look for "Supplemetal Disclosure re dna test Result'" on pp5-6 of the PDF.


https://int.nyt.com/data/documentto...kohberger apartment/ddb059f6cc8e24c1/full.pdf
Click to expand...
Thankyou ….

Yes I found what you mean in the document you linked ….

So in very simple terms …. The DNA on the sheath found at the crime scene has a “caveat of sorts” on it ….. so that if the DNA is not allowed it doesn’t mean the entire warrant and process is not allowed….(or thrown out of court)

So it is likely that people have this confused …..and think the sheath has been removed from evidence, where it has not … the “sheath” is still very much in the Prosecution‘s handbag ….


IMO
 
Twistinginthewind said:
It's confusing, I'm confused too, possibly... I thought you were asking for the PCA for PA (page 9 of that PDF), but you're looking for the list of items collected based on the search warrant(s), I think, that's in 4 different places, since there were 4 different search warrants for PA (1) items from his parent's house at the time he was arrested, (2) items collected from his parent's house after his arrest, (3) items collected from his car after his arrest, (4) items collected from his person after his arrest in jail. Here are where the lists are, AFAIK:

(1) Arrest items: The handwritten page (of 9 items) on page 4 in the PA PCA document linked above.

(2) Parent's house items: The handwritten 4 page list of items from the post-arrest search of his parent's house linked above. I haven't looked at every word and the handwriting is hard to read, so I don't know if a sheath is mentioned on that list of items.

(3) Car items: This is the search warrant for his car that should have the list of items taken from his car, but I haven't read it:
READ: Search warrant for Bryan Kohberger's car

(4) His person (body): I doubt the search of his person (in jail) will be published, but the Assistant DA Mancuso said at the press conference after his arrest, that that search warrant was for taking photographs of his person and samples from him (e.g., DNA).

To answer your questions, until I read through (2) and (3) (which I haven't), I couldn't say whether there was a knife sheath from searches in PA.

I don't know about the possibility that there is another sealed/confidential search warrant with a knife sheath listed that is not publicly available that went directly to the Grand Jury in secret, and that is the knife sheath there has been discussion about being removed from the list.

MOO
Click to expand...
Sorry to intevene,only cos I think I might be able to help clean this up. So your item 1 is the nine items that I believe were the return of the search done of BK's person in PA. (I mis-interpreted thisin response to the poster you are conversing with and thought they meant WA search warrant retuen that had very few items).

So IMO, that search was done right there and then on BK's person at arrest.I believe it include x4 dna swabs? MOO

I don't believe that if BK was again searched in jail, there would have been return listed here - that is the search warrant for BK was executed at the moment the fbi or whoever busted in there. MOO

Apologies, I'm thinking now that I've missed the entire gist of your convo and you are speculating on something different which invloves a missing knife sheath unrelated to all that bizzo I posted about the dna test result on the snap button of sheath found at crime scene. Please ignore my posts if so, because I do not want to add to any confusion. MOO
 
jepop said:
Sorry to intevene,only cos I think I might be able to help clean this up. So your item 1 is the nine items that I believe were the return of the search done of BK's person in PA. (I mis-interpreted thisin response to the poster you are conversing with and thought they meant WA search warrant retuen that had very few items).

So IMO, that search was done right there and then on BK's person at arrest.I believe it include x4 dna swabs? MOO

I don't believe that if BK was again searched in jail, there would have been return listed here - that is the search warrant for BK was executed at the moment the fbi or whoever busted in there. MOO

Apologies, I'm thinking now that I've missed the entire gist of your convo and you are speculating on something different which invloves a missing knife sheath unrelated to all that bizzo I posted about the dna test result on the snap button of sheath found at crime scene. Please ignore my posts if so, because I do not want to add to any confusion. MOO
Click to expand...
I think you have cleared it up, for me anyway …..

My original question was about the possibility of the “crime scene sheath” being removed from evidence …. As I have read that many times …which I now know is obviously incorrect ….

It is now clear, that the crime scene sheath is still in the evidence … for the Prosecution …

Another poster though the sheath had been removed from the PA PCA, however to date, I can find no evidence of this either .… but I have found a sheath listed on the PA warrant…

Hopefully that explains it better….. and appreciate your input.
 
SLouTh said:
Thankyou ….

Yes I found what you mean in the document you linked ….

So in very simple terms …. The DNA on the sheath found at the crime scene has a “caveat of sorts” on it ….. so that if the DNA is not allowed it doesn’t mean the entire warrant and process is not allowed….(or thrown out of court)

So it is likely that people have this confused …..and think the sheath has been removed from evidence, where it has not … the “sheath” is still very much in the Prosecution‘s handbag ….


IMO
Click to expand...
That's exactly right, yes, the PCA was written so that even if the DNA on the knife sheath found at the crime scene was not "proven" as BK's down the road, the rest of the PCA still stands (including the sheath itself, which LE has tracked down to the manufacturer and possibly the purchaser (BK)).

I agree, the discussion about "the sheath being dropped" could also come from what @jepop pointed out, which in my mind is a miscommunication in the media about the DNA on the sheath at the scene of the crime possibly being dropped from evidence if LE's results that it was 99.9999% likely from BK through his father's DNA match (paraphrasing) (as stated in the arrest PCA) turn out to not be scientifically defensible.

Although I myself am confident that the DNA evidence on the knife sheath will stand.

Right now I kind of wish people would stop talking about it in the media because it keeps being misconstrued, and the mental gymnastics required to sort it all out is... um... <<blows raspberry>> ;)

MOO
 
jepop said:
Sorry to intevene,only cos I think I might be able to help clean this up. So your item 1 is the nine items that I believe were the return of the search done of BK's person in PA. (I mis-interpreted thisin response to the poster you are conversing with and thought they meant WA search warrant retuen that had very few items).

So IMO, that search was done right there and then on BK's person at arrest.I believe it include x4 dna swabs? MOO

I don't believe that if BK was again searched in jail, there would have been return listed here - that is the search warrant for BK was executed at the moment the fbi or whoever busted in there. MOO

Apologies, I'm thinking now that I've missed the entire gist of your convo and you are speculating on something different which invloves a missing knife sheath unrelated to all that bizzo I posted about the dna test result on the snap button of sheath found at crime scene. Please ignore my posts if so, because I do not want to add to any confusion. MOO
Click to expand...
It's all good, thanks for your input, things got clarified along the way and I think we've now come full circle and have gotten organized with all the lists anyway, and all the sheath possum-bilities under the sun :) MOO
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

DNASolves

Who is Escambia County John Doe (1989)?

Members online

... and 64 more.
Total: 1,368 (members: 65, guests: 1,303)

Online statistics

Members online
65
Guests online
1,303
Total visitors
1,368
Totals may include hidden visitors.

Forum statistics

Threads
591,787
Messages
17,958,879
Members
228,607
Latest member
wdavewong
Back
Top