Law Enforcement/the Brianna case

[10EC_Dad]

I also feel laws should be passed which can actually make any adult legally responsible to tell either LE, an Atty, or other professional of their intentions to vanish and make the penalties severe if they walk away then are caught. This would cut down on the time and money spent to finding them by the authorities...plus give LE another way to recoup their losses. In this day and age, people NEED to be held accountable for their actions. They take away neccessary resources from the ones who are missing due to actual foul play.quote]

SS,
ITA with your above statement. They could even put a process into place where people could pick up legal forms, sign in front of a witness and notarize them, drop them into a computer system. They wouldn't even have to notify friends or family, just disappear, and then when LE is called in, they automatically check the database first. Very little time wasted searching for someone who doesn't want to be found.

Those who choose to disappear without following the protocol, should be fined and/or jailed, as well as mandatory community service spent working on TRUE missing persons cases, whether handing out water to search teams, or whatever.

This all sounds like the Soviet Union. "Your papers must be in order!"

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Without looking at "those" stats, how can you say that LE is not being "held accountable" and is not doing a good job?

If you reread my post, you will see that I meant that people who are taking off on their own are not being held accountable...to their families, to their creditors, to the IRS, to the community, or to their other obligations which they are leaving behind. Someone will become responsible for all those things in their absence. To me, this is unconscionable. We should put some legality in place to thwart this behavior. As it is now, it is perfectly legal to walk away. How many times have we heard that one from LE?! It is NOT a crime to vanish. It should be!

 

[10EC_Dad]

If you reread my post, you will see that I meant that people who are taking off on their own are not being held accountable...to their families, to their creditors, to the IRS, to the community, or to their other obligations which they are leaving behind. Someone will become responsible for all those things in their absence. To me, this is unconscionable. We should put some legality in place to thwart this behavior. As it is now, it is perfectly legal to walk away. How many times have we heard that one from LE?! It is NOT a crime to vanish. It should be!

I will say it again, that sounds like the Soviet Union. "Your papers must be in order!"

In theory, your suggestion sounds great. In practice, how are you going to enforce it?

 

[10EC_Dad]

It isn't about us understanding LE...it is about getting the public awareness to a level to put these predators behind bars. Their way of doing things doesn't work.

Have you looked at the hundreds of thousands of missing faces out there?! WHAT is working with the way LE is doing it and has done it for all these years? If you can answer that...then we can go from there!

What is working? Do you not see it?

Who are all those people sleeping in the prisons?

 

[NewMommy09]

This all sounds like the Soviet Union. "Your papers must be in order!"

I don't really see it as any different than being obligated to file your taxes every year or file custody paperwork when divorcing, or having to take time off work to perform jury duty, etc. As adults, we have obligations and responsibilities, whether it's fun or not. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be able to take off if they choose to. But to waste government and media resources as well as time and money for search purposes, when you don't want to be found, I DO think that should be a crime. I'm not suggesting some long drawn out process where you have to legally "divorce" the people in your life, or anything crazy. I'm talking about a legal form, that can be filled out in front of a legal witness and notarized, for a reasonable sum, and then entered into a database. Basically, a formal legal declaration of an individuals right and choice to leave their current life behind.

If a mother and father divorce, and the mother has custody, she can not legally (at least in most states and in typical circumstances) move out of state without the father's approval. Wouldn't that also be very "soviet union" by your same standards? It seems unfair and improbable that a mother could be FORCED to live in a specific state because the father of her children refuses to agree. But at the same time, it's not necessarily fair that the father has to live states away from his child just because he's not married to the mother anymore. I bring up this example only because I feel that the issue of people choosing to disappear is not black and white. There is no PERFECT way to deal with it. But I do feel that it would be more appropriate for the person who chose to disappear to deal with the consequences, than for the community, LE and other missing persons cases to suffer the consequences.

 

[10EC_Dad]

I don't really see it as any different than being obligated to file your taxes every year or file custody paperwork when divorcing, or having to take time off work to perform jury duty, etc. As adults, we have obligations and responsibilities, whether it's fun or not. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be able to take off if they choose to. But to waste government and media resources as well as time and money for search purposes, when you don't want to be found, I DO think that should be a crime. I'm not suggesting some long drawn out process where you have to legally "divorce" the people in your life, or anything crazy. I'm talking about a legal form, that can be filled out in front of a legal witness and notarized, for a reasonable sum, and then entered into a database. Basically, a formal legal declaration of an individuals right and choice to leave their current life behind.

If a mother and father divorce, and the mother has custody, she can not legally (at least in most states and in typical circumstances) move out of state without the father's approval. Wouldn't that also be very "soviet union" by your same standards? It seems unfair and improbable that a mother could be FORCED to live in a specific state because the father of her children refuses to agree. But at the same time, it's not necessarily fair that the father has to live states away from his child just because he's not married to the mother anymore. I bring up this example only because I feel that the issue of people choosing to disappear is not black and white. There is no PERFECT way to deal with it. But I do feel that it would be more appropriate for the person who chose to disappear to deal with the consequences, than for the community, LE and other missing persons cases to suffer the consequences.

This is not taxes are divorce, not even close. You know that.

Just how would you decide who has to feel out the paperwork, how would you enforce it, how would you prosecute it?

 

[NewMommy09]

This is not taxes are divorce, not even close. You know that.

Just how would you decide who has to feel out the paperwork, how would you enforce it, how would you prosecute it?

Of course I know it's not the same. I used the examples to make my point that most laws or legal procedures are not perfect, and I would not expect my suggestion to be perfect either. That would be unrealistic.
Just as not all Sex Offenders register as required by law, and not all motor vehicle owners register their vehicles as required by law, and not all people pay their taxes as required by law, I understand that not all people choosing to disappearing would follow this protocol. But if a person is caught not paying taxes, they face penalties. If a sex offender is caught and hasn't registered, they face penalties. If a car owner is caught not having registered their vehicle, they face penalties. The same would go for this scenario.

What is it that you feel will not work about this, and why? Do you have other suggestions? Or do you feel that wasted time/resources/money in these situations is not worth creating a law to prosecute people? I am not trying to put words in your mouth, I am just curious to understand your viewpoint on this.

Respectfully,
StillHoping

 

[SeriouslySearching]

I will say it again, that sounds like the Soviet Union. "Your papers must be in order!"

In theory, your suggestion sounds great. In practice, how are you going to enforce it?

When the people are found, they will face prison time and/or hefty fines instead of getting to come home and say, "Sorry...just had to clear my head" and step back into their old lives unless they gave notice of their intent to leave with someone to call off a search for them.

Don't go throwing such tripe around as this being anything like the Soviet Union!! This is America. We do have laws, certain freedoms, and rights...however...we also have to be accountable for our actions. Walking away from our lives should not be an easy option for anyone. Ask the people who deal with the messes left behind!

 

[10EC_Dad]

Of course I know it's not the same. I used the examples to make my point that most laws or legal procedures are not perfect, and I would not expect my suggestion to be perfect either. That would be unrealistic.
Just as not all Sex Offenders register as required by law, and not all motor vehicle owners register their vehicles as required by law, and not all people pay their taxes as required by law, I understand that not all people choosing to disappearing would follow this protocol. But if a person is caught not paying taxes, they face penalties. If a sex offender is caught and hasn't registered, they face penalties. If a car owner is caught not having registered their vehicle, they face penalties. The same would go for this scenario.

What is it that you feel will not work about this, and why? Do you have other suggestions? Or do you feel that wasted time/resources/money in these situations is not worth creating a law to prosecute people? I am not trying to put words in your mouth, I am just curious to understand your viewpoint on this.

Respectfully,
StillHoping

Problems to track compliance, problems to prosecute. I do think it would be a huge waste of resources.

 

[10EC_Dad]

When the people are found, they will face prison time and/or hefty fines instead of getting to come home and say, "Sorry...just had to clear my head" and step back into their old lives unless they gave notice of their intent to leave with someone to call off a search for them.

Don't go throwing such tripe around as this being anything like the Soviet Union!! This is America. We do have laws, certain freedoms, and rights...however...we also have to be accountable for our actions. Walking away from our lives should not be an easy option for anyone. Ask the people who deal with the messes left behind!

Let me ask, in the spirit of accountabilty:

1) How would you implement this?
2)How would you track compliance?
3)How would you prosecute?
4)What would be the penalty?

Looking forward to your well reasoned solution.

 

[10EC_Dad]

What would you say to the battered woman trying to escape her abusive husband? She's got to make a record of what she's doing (trying to disappear to save her life) or else she's going to prison? That'll work. That's good policy.

Guess what? Every women who did not fill out their "paperwork" is going to be a battered woman running from someone. How much money are we going to spend procsecuting that?

Like I have said, good theory but bad practice.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

What would you say to the battered woman trying to escape her abusive husband? She's got to make a record of what she's doing (trying to disappear to save her life) or else she's going to prison? That'll work. That's good policy.

Darn right she should let her attorney know or someone in authority!! You BET she should let someone in on her trying to get away to save her life! LE should be the one she calls in order to get away, but at the very least...a priest or an attorney should know where she is going in order to make sure she stays safe! IT IS A DARN GOOD POLICY! (I take it you don't know much about battered women trying to escape the abuser, huh?)

Dad~ I can name you four or five women off the top of my head that wasted LE's time and money while they just decided to traipse off into the netherland. Runaway Bride comes to mind, for one. While they did give her some community service and a fine...I didn't feel it was stiff enough.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

Let me ask, in the spirit of accountabilty:

1) How would you implement this? The laws passed would be what you need to implement it. Pretty self explanatory. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

2)How would you track compliance? How do they track missing people now? OK bad example since they do a very poor job of it and part of the reason a lot of us are here. Compliance would come when they are found. At least, LE would have something to charge them with in their absence so they could pick them up on a warrant in other states. There is nothing in place now that would give LE the right to hold them or send them back to face consequences.

3)How would you prosecute? See above.

4)What would be the penalty? I think repaying the monies spent searching for them is a start. Jail time for every law they broke in the meantime would be part of that penalty.

Looking forward to your well reasoned solution.

Here is part of it!

 

[NewMommy09]

I don't understand the point of the battered woman reference. There are already shelters which help battered women. It would be relatively easy to include the paperwork to "disappear by choice" into the process and protocol for these shelters. As I said in a previous post, the paperwork or file would not be available to family/friends, only to proper authorities. Therefor, I don't see how this "law" would create issues for battered women as her abuser would not be privy to this info.

 

[NewMommy09]

Here is part of it!

I also said before that community service performed on other missing persons cases would be a reasonable and productive penalty. It would give the offender an understanding of why and how these other cases are hurt by their actions.

 

[NewMommy09]

I also wanted to add that it's my belief that this "law" would also serve as a deterrant. If people know there will be penalties for taking off and not following the proper protocol, some of them will choose either to not just take off or to file the paperwork. There will always be those who don't follow the law but that's true of all laws and scenarios.

 

[SeriouslySearching]

How is this much different than allowing women to drop off newborn babies at a hospital or fire station if they want to disown them? I don't see much difference in the theory of putting something in place to allow LE to know you are voluntarily missing and choose not to be found. Neither do the mothers that take advantage of the law when they disown their child. The ones who do not follow the law to the letter are then hunted down and charged with abandonment, etc.

The point is...there IS no law in place currently to charge you for walking out on your life or leaving your wife and/or children to suffer. When they do find you, they do not have the legal right to do anything. This should be changed.

If you haven't already...go read the threads on Jon Van Dyke. It is what is happening in that case. He is free to come out of hiding and continue on with whatever new life he decided upon after years of searching for him. Not even a slap on the wrist! Justice?! No way!

 

[NewMommy09]

Ss,
That was a very good point about safe haven laws.

If mothers can legally abandon a child if procedures are followed, why would this be different? People still abandon babies not following those protocols. There are always those who don't follow the rules or laws. But how many lives have been saved because of The Safe Haven law?

 

[Utopia]

I don't see much difference in the theory of putting something in place to allow LE to know you are voluntarily missing and choose not to be found. !

I totally get what you are saying about the irresponsible actions of "runaways" and the repercussions of their abandonment. Here's my concern however. The husbands of Lisa Stebic, Theresa Parker and Stacey Peterson have all claimed their wives just up and left. Assuming the husbands are responsible for these disappearances (most here think they are), what a gift for them if a mechanism like the one you suggest were in place! It would not be difficult for them to either forge a signature or "coerce" one to be signed and voila!, no more searching for the victim or blaming the murderer.

 

[NewMommy09]

I totally get what you are saying about the irresponsible actions of "runaways" and the repercussions of their abandonment. Here's my concern however. The husbands of Lisa Stebic, Theresa Parker and Stacey Peterson have all claimed their wives just up and left. Assuming the husbands are responsible for these disappearances (most here think they are), what a gift for them if a mechanism like the one you suggest were in place! It would not be difficult for them to either forge a signature or "coerce" one to be signed and voila!, no more searching for the victim or blaming the murderer.

Good point. That is why there would have to be a legal witness and a process to make sure identification is verified etc. And if there is evidence of foul-play as in each of the above mentioned cases, the "voluntary disappearance" would need to be further investigated or voided. Of course it would not be fool-proof, but no law process is. If only 1 of 5 cases is not pursued because there is proof the disappearance is voluntary, that is still a significant amount of time/resources/money that will not be wasted.