IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #3

[shefner]

Dr. Doogie, Believe it or not I defended you profusely last night on the very site we are referring to here. I told a person there that you are a person who doesn't believe that Johnny was kidnapped to become part of a pedo ring. I told them we had respectfully disagreed for a long time but that you are a "nice guy."
Let me say that I was openly chastised by one of Noreen's own agents....who felt you were an idiot if you couldn't see the "truth." Quite frankly, that ticked me off and along with a few other comments, I checked out for the evening.

I don't know what I believe anymore...if that makes me an idiot then its open season around here--call me one! I thought I "knew" things but after dealing with that site, I think I may have been way off base throughout this whole thing.

Pedo rings exist....politicians and LE can be bad guys sometimes. Things get covered-up. But is this one of those times? I just can't say for certain.

All I know is that the world is crazy.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Shefner:

Thank you for defending me. Who knows, maybe I am an idiot, but the investigator that you referred to evidently still believes that the middle boy in the "three boy pic" is David Johnson, the son of Patricia Johnson-Holm, so that doesn't speak too highly of his ability to judge people.

I am concerned about the tone of your posts. You sound like you are very down and I sincerely hope that this emotional state is short-lived. You have been deeply involved in examining the facts of the case and the shortcomings of others does not reflect upon you. It is your faith in others that has been shaken - do not let it shake your faith in yourself.

I believe that there is some fire behind the smoke of the conspiracy (of course, we disagree with the size of that fire). If you re-examine the evidence with this different viewpoint that you have recently come to and still come to the same conclusion, then at least you will know that you have arrived at that conclusion based on something that you can truly believe in - your own thoughts and experiences.

Some of the evidence for a conspiracy is compelling - some of it does not stand up to scrutiny. Differentiating between the two is a sign of wisdom, not weakness.

 

[WSTarheel]

Shefner:

Thank you for defending me. Who knows, maybe I am an idiot, but the investigator that you referred to evidently still believes that the middle boy in the "three boy pic" is David Johnson, the son of Patricia Johnson-Holm, so that doesn't speak too highly of his ability to judge people.

I currently believe that many of the JG conspiracy theories may be true, however I have read the testimony of PJH and I just don't buy it... I don't know if she's a disinfo agent, mentally disturbed, or just looking to attach her name to a big case for her 15 minutes of fame??? I normally give people the benefit of the doubt but alarm bells go off for me when PJH is mentioned.

Dr. Doogie - we are probably on opposite sides of the fence as far as this case goes, but I've been following your posts both on this site and the other and I've gotta say - you're a straight shooter, and I admire that!

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Thanks, WST. I try to call 'em the way I see 'em, but I also try to include links to show that I am not merely talking out of my rear. This irritates some of the believers in the conspiracy, but my posts are not designed to irritate - they are designed to present what I feel are legitimate questions and contradictions in the case for the FC.

I believe that the initial embracing of (and the refusal of Noreen and her investigators to later distance themselves from) Patricia Johnson-Holms is the single most damaging thing that I have witnessed from the pro-conspiracy camp. Up until that point, I was willing to entertain the possibility of a conspiracy (no, really, I was). After I saw the lack of investigation into PJH prior to Noreen's public announcement, I lost faith in Noreen's word. I felt that I had put my trust in someone who showed themselves to be slipshod in thier work and felt embarrased by my trust. (I do not presume to speak for Shefner, but I suspect that my feelings were similar to what she has expressed here in the last couple of days.)

I doubt that PJH is a disinfo agent sent by the bad guys to disrupt the investigation. Her claims were so transparent and ludicrous that they could never have thought that anyone would buy it. The fact that Noreen and her inner-circle fell for it is so incredible that even the most sinister conspiracy members must have been shaking their heads at thier good luck.

No, PJH is merely a stone-cold paranoid lunatic with delusions of grandeur. As much fun as I had on her forum poking her with a stick and watching the crazy lady react, it dawned on me that she actually believes what we all immediately recognize as nonsense. Her world view completely incorporates and accepts her delusions as unarguable fact. And I can only come up with one word to describe that: Sad.

 

[shefner]

Dr. Doogie, you are correct in your assumptions about my feelings. Initially, I felt very disillusioned but now am feeling the fog clear a bit. I have decided that I do not trust any one from the Gosch "foundation" and while that doesn't mean I disbelieve everything that I believed before(but definitely some things), it does mean that I no longer take their spoon-fed information at immediate face value. The foundation's behavior is questionable to the rational person. While we are dealing with some very tough issues (pedo rings, child abuse, ritual abuse and sacrifices, etc.), the most challenging part to handle is how quickly anyone who makes a sensational claim seems to be accepted by the camp. Such was the case with PJH.....and now another person, who claims his family was involved in ritual abuse and kidnappings, murder, etc. I am not so quick to dismiss his claims, perhaps they are true. However, it recently came to our attention that the individual is himself being investigated by authorities. Mmmm.....

Let's just say that the King is naked....and I can finally admit it.....What's wrong with all these people cheering in the crowd--he ain't wearin' a thing!

 

[shadowangel]

To quote paranormal investigator John Keel... "All of the generations before ours were infested with false prophets, workers of wonders, and signs in the sky...But our modern-day electronic communications...have given present-day prophets tools the ancients lacked. Ideas, no matter how bizarre or fallacious, can span the world in a flash. And there are always people ready to rally to any banner, no matter how absurd.
"Belief has always been the enemy of truth; yet, ironically, if our minds are supple enough, belief can sometimes open the door".

Or, more simply, to quote the funk band Funkadelic from 1970: "Free your mind, and your *** will follow".

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Shefner:

I think it is a natural tendency for people to embrace those with stories that confirm our world view and to reject those with stories that contradict our beliefs. It is when we overcome this natural tendency and honestly examine the evidence before us that we rise above our baser nature. It is not the conclusion that we arrive at that can make us great - it is the process of examination itself that defines our intellectual honesty. Regardless of whether you come to a decision that is in agreement or opposition to my opinions about the conspiracy, I believe that you have reached a healthy (if painful) starting point for your re-exploration of the facts of the case. Best wishes on your journey.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Let's just say that the King is naked....and I can finally admit it.....What's wrong with all these people cheering in the crowd--he ain't wearin' a thing!

In this picture, the King is not naked, but he certainly is sharing more of his personal parts than I would care to see. LOL

 

[shefner]

Dr. Doogie....thanks for the laugh!!! -Sherry

 

[iowa gurl]

Sherry, I see you are over here on the "Dark Side" with Doogie. Just a little jab for you doc!

FYI Jimmy/Not Jimmy paid a visit last night to FF.

Would love to hear from you~~

Mg

P.S. I invited Jimmy to Iowa

 

[Dr. Doogie]

IowaGurl: Just call me "Darth Doogie".

 

[shefner]

Hi There IowaGurl.....I have been over here for a long time...this is where I have taken some of the most brutal assaults! LOL This is the place where I convinced Rbeck to create the Franklin Files site....because after our previous site was hacked, we only had this one thread to discuss things. It was the "launching pad," so to speak.

Yes, I saw that Jimmy was there.....thought it was interesting that Luke thought Jimmy was the real deal. Talk to ya soon! -Sherry

 

[iowa gurl]

Shefner,

Yes I know this was the only alternative to discuss JG after the old FF was hacked. I too spent a fair amount of time defending Noreen Gosch. I eventually quit posting but still checked periodically.

I will continue to defend Noreen here and over at FF. I realize you are very disheartened and I do understand that. We may have to agree to disagree on some of the finer points. What I wish for most is some resolution for Noreen and, if Johnny is alive for him to be able to re-enter mainstream society; if that is what he so wishes to do. There is also speculation I have heard that Johnny doesnt want to come home.

Doogie and I batted heads here much like you and he have. I like Doogie and I was not trying to insult...my comments to and/or about Doogie are all in fun and I believe he and I have that understanding.

I happen to believe Noreen is probably not far off the mark in discovering what really did happen to Johnny...I just remain unsure about ...What the heck can be done about it.

 

[shadowangel]

It's far too easy to forget the salient points of this case in all the talk of conspiracies.
I found something I felt was interesting, that I can't find mentioned anywhere else...Maybe it doesn't fit into the popular mythos surrounding Johhny's disappearance. Anyway...
On September 24, 1982, mere weeks after Johnny disappeared, Shawn Lee Jackson failed to show up at school that morning. Shawn lived in Milford, IA, a couple of hours from West Des Moines. A search revealed his school books and lunch box, all stacked neatly under a pail near a local gravel pit. Police dragged the gravel pits, but found nothing.
Finally, that following Friday, Shawn's body was found in an abandoned farmhouse near the town of Spirit Lake. He was in a refrigerator. Cause of death was ruled suffocation.
Police made the determination that Shawn had travelled eight miles from Milford to the farmhouse. His footprints were found in a cornfield near the building. He had then gotten into the fridge on his own. It was estimated that he died either Monday night or Tuesday. Investigators wouldn't say if it was an accident or suicide.
This scenario to me seems utterly bizarre. Shawn carefully stacks then hides his school books...Walks 8 miles, finds an abandoned house...Climbs inside a refrigerator and then shuts himself inside? There was no indication that he had any on-going issues.
While Shawn was still missing, it was mentioned that investigators were considering if it had any link to Johnny's disappearance. During the week Shawn was missing, a note was found in a gas station bathroom in Pipestone, MN. The note read, "help! i'm being kidnapped!" LE thought it may have been tied to Shawn's disappearance, but that was later discounted.

Strange resolutions to cases of missing boys in IA seemed to occur with some regularity in IA. In May of '60, 13 year-old Gregory Kindig disappeared from Cedar Falls. He was found later, hanging in a shed not far from his home. Twine was tied around his neck and over a beam in the shed. His arms were tied with twine.
Police determined he was experimenting with nooses and slipped. They determined that a person could have tied themselves as Gregory did.

An even more bizarre determination was made in the case of James Duncan, 12, of Shenandoah IA. James, like Johnny, was a newspaper carrier. He left home on Friday afternoon, collecting money. He was last seen at around 6:30 on an August evening in 1962.
The next morning, he was found along the banks of a nearby stream. His belt was looped around his neck, and over a wire that was stretched from boards along the stream to the streambank. Parts of both feet were still in contact with the ground. His shirt was pulled up between the belt and his neck. His clothes were disarranged. His time of death was estimated to be around 9:30 the previous night.
An autopsy revealed no obvious signs of molestation.
The official determination? James had hanged himself by accident.

 

[StealthTheory]

It's far too easy to forget the salient points of this case in all the talk of conspiracies.
I found something I felt was interesting, that I can't find mentioned anywhere else...Maybe it doesn't fit into the popular mythos surrounding Johhny's disappearance. Anyway...
On September 24, 1982, mere weeks after Johnny disappeared, Shawn Lee Jackson failed to show up at school that morning. Shawn lived in Milford, IA, a couple of hours from West Des Moines. A search revealed his school books and lunch box, all stacked neatly under a pail near a local gravel pit. Police dragged the gravel pits, but found nothing.
Finally, that following Friday, Shawn's body was found in an abandoned farmhouse near the town of Spirit Lake. He was in a refrigerator. Cause of death was ruled suffocation.
Police made the determination that Shawn had travelled eight miles from Milford to the farmhouse. His footprints were found in a cornfield near the building. He had then gotten into the fridge on his own. It was estimated that he died either Monday night or Tuesday. Investigators wouldn't say if it was an accident or suicide.
This scenario to me seems utterly bizarre. Shawn carefully stacks then hides his school books...Walks 8 miles, finds an abandoned house...Climbs inside a refrigerator and then shuts himself inside? There was no indication that he had any on-going issues.
While Shawn was still missing, it was mentioned that investigators were considering if it had any link to Johnny's disappearance. During the week Shawn was missing, a note was found in a gas station bathroom in Pipestone, MN. The note read, "help! i'm being kidnapped!" LE thought it may have been tied to Shawn's disappearance, but that was later discounted.

Strange resolutions to cases of missing boys in IA seemed to occur with some regularity in IA. In May of '60, 13 year-old Gregory Kindig disappeared from Cedar Falls. He was found later, hanging in a shed not far from his home. Twine was tied around his neck and over a beam in the shed. His arms were tied with twine.
Police determined he was experimenting with nooses and slipped. They determined that a person could have tied themselves as Gregory did.

An even more bizarre determination was made in the case of James Duncan, 12, of Shenandoah IA. James, like Johnny, was a newspaper carrier. He left home on Friday afternoon, collecting money. He was last seen at around 6:30 on an August evening in 1962.
The next morning, he was found along the banks of a nearby stream. His belt was looped around his neck, and over a wire that was stretched from boards along the stream to the streambank. Parts of both feet were still in contact with the ground. His shirt was pulled up between the belt and his neck. His clothes were disarranged. His time of death was estimated to be around 9:30 the previous night.
An autopsy revealed no obvious signs of molestation.
The official determination? James had hanged himself by accident.

yikes, they sure are bizarre.

 

[shefner]

shadowangel, Thanks for pointing out these cases...I am not familiar with them. Do you have a theory about what happened to Johnny?

 

[shadowangel]

shadowangel, Thanks for pointing out these cases...I am not familiar with them. Do you have a theory about what happened to Johnny?

I do, and its the same theory I have for most cases...Johnny was taken by someone who used him for their own evil purposes, then murdered him, dumping him somewhere that has yet to be located.
Steve Stayner, Shawn Hornbeck, these are the exceptions. I believe the great majority are out there, in the wilderness, if you will, waiting for us to find them.

I have no personal need for conspiracies. The compassion that lives in one person's heart that drives them to enter burning buildings to save strangers is equalled by the evil in others that drives them to kidnap and murder our children.

 

[laini]

Shadowangel,

Where did you find those Iowa stories listed above? A website? Very interesting. I haven't heard of any of them.

Thanks

 

[kline]

I do, and its the same theory I have for most cases...Johnny was taken by someone who used him for their own evil purposes, then murdered him, dumping him somewhere that has yet to be located.
Steve Stayner, Shawn Hornbeck, these are the exceptions. I believe the great majority are out there, in the wilderness, if you will, waiting for us to find them.

I have no personal need for conspiracies. The compassion that lives in one person's heart that drives them to enter burning buildings to save strangers is equalled by the evil in others that drives them to kidnap and murder our children.

Shadowangel-
Very well written post.
And I agree with you 100%.

 

[shadowangel]

Shadowangel,

Where did you find those Iowa stories listed above? A website? Very interesting. I haven't heard of any of them.

Thanks

These were articles from NewspaperArchives.com. Each of these reports spanned several weeks.