Cadaver dogs have hit on dumpster near home #2

[impatientredhead]

new here, but wanted to add, that cadaver dogs are taught to sit or lay down when they find a hit as respect to the body. Search dogs are not taught that..

The poster with the idea of older people sort of blew my mind,but families often times have to get rid of the sheets, mattresses etc when they find a love one dead, so maybe thats not as far fetched as it sounded at first.

Are cadaver dogs given the scent of the person they are looking for or do they search for decomp of any human.
All 3 dogs were cadaver dogs? Would have been interesting if they had a search and rescuse dog there also. or maybe they did.

Cadaver dogs search for the smell of human decay, they are not given a specific person's scent.

 

[Ames]

Hmmm..Not according to the lady searcher with her cadaver dog that was on JVM last night. I found it so interesting I had to call hubby and tell him about it right after. She said that all living people have a different scent, TO A DOG, but all dead people have the exact same scent, TO A DOG. Makes sense too-thats why search and rescue dogs are given an article of clothing to smell before searching but cadaver dogs just know the scent of death that they are searching for because its the same for everyone.

Bold by Ames...
I saw the same lady on NG. I found that interesting too!

 

[Ames]

Cadaver dogs search for the smell of human decay, they are not given a specific person's scent.

Right...the lady trainer on NG last night said that they didn't even need an article of clothing, because they are trained to search for the smell of human decomposition.

 

[Tichad3]

Cadaver dogs search for the smell of human decay, they are not given a specific person's scent.

Thanks for that info. I always thought they were looking for a certain person.

And redheads are never impatient.:crazy:

Welcome orb4me:woohoo:

 

[kiki the parrot]

I hadn't realized before that there are so many different search methods by which dogs can be employed. According to this very short article I am guessing "trailing" dogs were the ones initially used by LE, it briefly describes differences also including cadaver dogs. I'm still not clear re whether either cadaver dogs and/or trailing dogs can detect people or things which have come into contact such as brush material in dumpster. It's a little OT but here is interesting excerpt re trailing dogs that I was researching.

"Trailing Dogs are trained to follow a specific human scent, which may or may not approximate the path the person took because of factors affecting the dispersal of scent such as wind and temperature. To start trailing a specific individual, the dog needs a scent article that the person has directly handled. The dog is then started on the trail at the point where the victim was last seen (PLS). Trailing dogs will follow the route of scent deposited on the ground as a person moves through an area. This deposited scent trail is affected by wind and other weather conditions so the dog may not follow the person's exact footsteps. The trailing dog may work parallel to the path the individual actually walked. A trained trailing dog can follow the steps of someone who passed by several days earlier, discriminate between it and another's trail, and follow it over hills and through marshland. Dogs can even trail people in cars, from the scent that blows out of the window or through the vents of the car."

http://www.westjerseyk9.org/types/index.html

arrot:

 

[impatientredhead]

I hadn't realized before that there are so many different search methods by which dogs can be employed. According to this very short article I am guessing "trailing" dogs were the ones initially used by LE, it briefly describes differences also including cadaver dogs. I'm still not clear re whether either cadaver dogs and/or trailing dogs can detect people or things which have come into contact such as brush material in dumpster. It's a little OT but here is interesting excerpt re trailing dogs that I was researching.

"Trailing Dogs are trained to follow a specific human scent, which may or may not approximate the path the person took because of factors affecting the dispersal of scent such as wind and temperature. To start trailing a specific individual, the dog needs a scent article that the person has directly handled. The dog is then started on the trail at the point where the victim was last seen (PLS). Trailing dogs will follow the route of scent deposited on the ground as a person moves through an area. This deposited scent trail is affected by wind and other weather conditions so the dog may not follow the person's exact footsteps. The trailing dog may work parallel to the path the individual actually walked. A trained trailing dog can follow the steps of someone who passed by several days earlier, discriminate between it and another's trail, and follow it over hills and through marshland. Dogs can even trail people in cars, from the scent that blows out of the window or through the vents of the car."

http://www.westjerseyk9.org/types/index.html

arrot:

A cadaver dog can pinpoint items that have been in contact with the body. I am not sure what you mean by brush material. But for instance to use a recent case, in the Caylee Anthony case had Casey actually attempted a real clean up of the trunk and removed the carpet from the trunk the dogs would have still indicated when finding the carpet. They train them with material that has been in contact with the body. In houses where a body has been for a long period of time they frequently have to remove the drywall because you cannot get rid of the odor.

 

[petresq_algc]

Snipped from a post made by LFlorida (a local)

- That dumpster looks like the containers we often see on trains. [I can't remember my Thomas the Tank Engine terminology at the moment, sorry.] Usually it is filed with coal or ash when I see them. The dumpster has SC- on the side of it in the photos posted early on this thread. Seaboard Coast Line is HQed in St. Augustine.


My thoughts:
Now this has my mind racing! Could this dumpster have been on the train the night Haleigh disappeared? Remember the trailing dogs tracked her scent to the tracks and then stopped. What if she was taken there, killed and later moved? Would a live scent and a decomp scent be present? Would this even be a possibility?

 

[scandi]

All I know about search dogs and cadaver dogs I've learned right here on WS.

What I've learned has led me to believe that if 3 cadaver dogs all alerted to
this same spot (the dumpster) I would believe human remains were or had
been present in that dumpster!!!

I would lay out every morsel of those contents on the ground and bring the
dogs back to show me just what it was they alerted too!

Wouldn't that be the easiest most common sense way to resolve the question?

Hi MysteryAddict, I sure hope they did what you suggested.

It was handled in such a different way that I have seen before it makes me wonder if this search was also done for the benefit of the public and those involved personally in the case as Winterrose has suggested.

Usually one would see a tented area where they would work to pull evidence from a scene. To do it in the open and then cover the top of the container to protect whatever was in there, so everyone could see what they did, amazed me.

I know they have to have a strategy after learning about this today. Let's hope they have someone like Horatio Cain in charge I have to give these officers in our case due respect. xox

 

[not_my_kids]

As secretive as LE has been about this case, is it possible that the dumpster search was a distraction from something big that was actually happening last night?
For all this time, they have kept just about everything under wraps and then last night they do this huge search that was extremely public, under lights. The whole procedure screamed "Look what we are doing. No, over here, not over there." They know that the media is just waiting, and has gone far enough as to tail the detectives to try to get a story on this case.

 

[Manny]

Hi MysteryAddict, I sure hope they did what you suggested.

It was handled in such a different way that I have seen before it makes me wonder if this search was also done for the benefit of the public and those involved personally in the case as Winterrose has suggested.

Usually one would see a tented area where they would work to pull evidence from a scene. To do it in the open and then cover the top of the container to protect whatever was in there, so everyone could see what they did, amazed me.

I know they have to have a strategy after learning about this today. Let's hope they have someone like Horatio Cain in charge I have to give these officers in our case due respect. xox

I don't believe they went any further than what we saw last night/ They started going through the bags while they were still live on the air. They should have brought that dog back and watched to see if he/she went for one specific area. I can't believe they just blew off the question on the Jane show on HL saying there was nothing there. I believe one of those dogs before I believe LE these days. There could have been something there that didn't look as though it had any thing to do with the case, but I don't know how they would know that. Bothers me,,, a lot.

 

[Aries72]

May I please ask did any one get a map of the area and where her scent was traced to the water and railroad tracks and this dumpster?Where these places would be on the map.I'm very sorry if I missed this if it was put here.I am new to her story too.

I posted a map this morning showing the area where the dumpster is located in the Photos/Map thread. I *think* the trailing map is also in that thread.

 

[Ms Suzanne]

I posted a map this morning showing the area where the dumpster is located in the Photos/Map thread. I *think* the trailing map is also in that thread.

Ok,Thank you.Do you know where the railroad tracks would be in this map or the water they traced her too.

 

[kiki the parrot]

My current theory is that Haleigh was indeed moved. That the perp was on foot, then after following or luring Haleigh to a nearby location (such as outbuilding or other secluded area) she was initially hidden in immediate vicinity of her neighborhood. Then later perp returned w vehicle, either car (or possibly boat) to retrieve her. Is it possible a perp could have disposed of Haleigh in that dumpster (or perhaps at the site from near where brush or other contents were gathered before being placed there?) to return later after dark or once he had a means of concealing and safely getting her out of the area? I just can't figure out how else he could've gotten her out of there--dead or alive--w/out being spotted, or arousing suspicion. JMO

arrot:

 

[scandi]

Cadaver dogs search for the smell of human decay, they are not given a specific person's scent.

Here is an interesting article that involves some info on 'enhanced scenting':

http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/articles/101759/diff/1/2

Snippet
"WHO, WHAT, WHY?
The Magazine answers...

Eddie has worked with the FBIA child's remains were discovered under several inches of concrete at a former children's home in Jersey after police bought in dogs to search the site. But how can they sniff through concrete?

For Eddie, it's all in a day's work.

When police suspected human remains were buried on the site of a former children's home in Jersey, the springer spaniel was part of the specialist team brought in to investigate.

Jersey Police said the seven-year-old dog located parts of a child's body even though they were buried under several inches of concrete. So how did he do it?

THE ANSWER The dogs are highly trained using scientific techniques which look into how they smell.

Eddie is an enhanced victim recovery dog and is specially trained to detect the scent of human remains. He is able to smell through solid materials, like concrete, because of scientifically-based training techniques.

It's this training that sets him apart for standard police sniffer dogs, which are able to detect human remains in shallow graves. The springer's nose is more sensitive and he is called in on more complicated cases.

Super sensitive

The specialist training techniques - which are highly confidential - were developed by Eddie's handler Martin Grimes, along with the UK's National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA) and America's Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). . . ." more @ link

 

[cynsational]

My current theory is that Haleigh was indeed moved. That the perp was on foot, then after following or luring Haleigh to a nearby location (such as outbuilding or other secluded area) she was initially hidden in immediate vicinity of her neighborhood. Then later perp returned w vehicle, either car (or possibly boat) to retrieve her. Is it possible a perp could have disposed of Haleigh in that dumpster (or perhaps at the site from near where brush or other contents were gathered before being placed there?) to return later after dark or once he had a means of concealing and safely getting her out of the area? I just can't figure out how else he could've gotten her out of there--dead or alive--w/out being spotted, or arousing suspicion. JMO

arrot:

We don't know what time Haleigh was taken. IF MC is being truthful, what time did she fall asleep? The perp could have had hours before 3:00 a.m. If MC fell asleep around 10 p.m. and the perp came in around 11 or 12 then Haleigh could have been gone for 3-5 hours ????????????

 

[kiki the parrot]

We don't know what time Haleigh was taken. IF MC is being truthful, what time did she fall asleep? The perp could have had hours before 3:00 a.m. If MC fell asleep around 10 p.m. and the perp came in around 11 or 12 then Haleigh could have been gone for 3-5 hours ????????????

We're getting OT but in actuality, assuming bus driver confirmed for LE it was in fact dad who was there at stop to meet Haleigh that day, I am still left to wonder exactly what time dad rounded up gf; if stories re gf just coming off three-day drug binge are true; if she could've been either late and dad possibly left for work before gf actually arrived; or per tips, gf continued to party as soon as dad left, either case in which there could have been been ample opportunity much earlier in the day had there been poor supervision of Haleigh. I'm frankly not sure at all re alleged bedtime, nor even 7 pm "sighting," much less sketchy account we have heard thus far of the hours following arrival at bus stop. And neither, evidently, is LE who has continued to requestion gf, no doubt re timeline and actual opening of "window of opportunity" thru which any SO could have crawled. We can explore these ideas further in theories thread, I just believe it could have happened much earlier than the timeline gf provided and so asking whether Haleigh might have been placed initially inside dumpster or elsewhere in immediate area, then later been transported or relocated. JMO

arrot:

 

[Aries72]

Ok,Thank you.Do you know where the railroad tracks would be in this map or the water they traced her too.

If you look at the trailing map, the location of the dumpster is on the north side of Tyler St...just east of the corner of Monroe and Tyler.

 

[blubuni99]

My current theory is that Haleigh was indeed moved. That the perp was on foot, then after following or luring Haleigh to a nearby location (such as outbuilding or other secluded area) she was initially hidden in immediate vicinity of her neighborhood. Then later perp returned w vehicle, either car (or possibly boat) to retrieve her. Is it possible a perp could have disposed of Haleigh in that dumpster (or perhaps at the site from near where brush or other contents were gathered before being placed there?) to return later after dark or once he had a means of concealing and safely getting her out of the area? I just can't figure out how else he could've gotten her out of there--dead or alive--w/out being spotted, or arousing suspicion. JMO

arrot:

My bold.
The media said the fence surrounding it was really high - so high that the media had to stand on top of their vans just to see over. So what if the perp is someone who wouldn't stand out messing around in the dumpster - like a construction worker (if the dumpster is indeed from construction) - anybody would go out there and pretend to take the trash out and grab a bag... I just realized what I was saying. You get my point.

 

[Kat]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0902/27/ijvm.01.html

Link to JVM show aired on 27 FEB 09

Snipped from that transcript:

(JVM)...Now you say the dumpster here was a false alarm reportedly. How can you say that for sure without DNA and other lab testing of the content?

CAPTAIN DICK SCHAULAND, PUTNAM COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: The -- actually, there were no human remains found in the dumpster.

The cadaver dogs are trained to alert on human scent and, of course, that can be anything from a bloody bandage to a sanitary napkin, most anything else. And they went through the dumpster and piece by piece. Tearing apart the bags and checking everything. And they did not find any human remains.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just -- it remind me, Captain, of the Casey Anthony case where the trunk of the car all that was found in terms of forensic evidence was pretty much air, air samples, one hair and a stain.

So wouldn`t she have to do some kind of a DNA analysis to make sure that there was nothing like that in the dumpster?
SCHAULAND: Well, of course, you`re talking about a trunk of a car and a large dumpster. And we don`t know exactly where the scent comes from and we don`t know exactly what caused the dogs to alert.

So all we can do is look for the obvious signs that are there. And we were not able to find any human remains at all.


What. The. H3!!? Anyone have an opinion on this please share?

 

[tehcloser]

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0902/27/ijvm.01.html

Link to JVM show aired on 27 FEB 09

Snipped from that transcript:

(JVM)...Now you say the dumpster here was a false alarm reportedly. How can you say that for sure without DNA and other lab testing of the content?

CAPTAIN DICK SCHAULAND, PUTNAM COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: The -- actually, there were no human remains found in the dumpster.

The cadaver dogs are trained to alert on human scent and, of course, that can be anything from a bloody bandage to a sanitary napkin, most anything else. And they went through the dumpster and piece by piece. Tearing apart the bags and checking everything. And they did not find any human remains.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just -- it remind me, Captain, of the Casey Anthony case where the trunk of the car all that was found in terms of forensic evidence was pretty much air, air samples, one hair and a stain.

So wouldn`t she have to do some kind of a DNA analysis to make sure that there was nothing like that in the dumpster?
SCHAULAND: Well, of course, you`re talking about a trunk of a car and a large dumpster. And we don`t know exactly where the scent comes from and we don`t know exactly what caused the dogs to alert.

So all we can do is look for the obvious signs that are there. And we were not able to find any human remains at all.


What. The. H3!!? Anyone have an opinion on this please share?

Crappy police work...or worse. :furious: