Second autopsy and other objects with touch DNA

[JMO8778]

I looked on the internet and I can't find ANY paintbrushes made of Beaver Hair. Some are made of Camel hair, though. Patsy's fur boots...that she wore to the White's...were thought to have been made from Beaver hair. The police wanted them so that they could test them. I don't know if they ever were or not.

==============================
This is from the Bonita Papers..

CLOTHING

One of the problems in the investigation was delayed gathering of
evidence. It was not until almost a year after the murder that the Boulder police through D.A. Hofstrom finally asked for the clothing worn by Ramsey family members to Whites’ dinner party on the night of December 25. Fleet had taken photos during the holiday gathering which were turned over to the police department, and police request the clothing that was depicted in these photos. Another month would go by before the Ramseys, through their legal counsel and private investigators, would comply with this request.
At that time, two black shirts from John and black pants and a red and black checked sweater from Patsy were provided. Two months later additional clothing, a red short sleeved shirt and a red turtleneck shirt, were also turned over by Patsy through the private investigator. The police department was informed that since John owned several pairs of khaki pants matching those in the photograph, John had not been able to determine which pair were worn on December 25. Not only had all of this clothing probably been reworn and been through many cleaning or laundering processes, the move from the Ramsey home had been done by a professional moving company. once again, contamination of evidence obtained from these articles of clothing could very likely present problems in any prosecution.

Considering the delayed cooperation from the Ramseys in turning over the clothing, it was significant what items of clothing requested by the police department were not turned over. Patsy had told the officers that she had worn black short boots, to the White’s dinner party. The boots had never beaver been given to police officials in spite of repeated requests. At a subsequent session with the police department to give handwriting samples, Patsy had been wearing short black fur boots, and the detectives wondered if these were the boots that the Ramseys were saying they could not locate. The detectives were anxious to locate the fur boots to test for beaver hair.

=========================

From Ames: So Patsy said that she could not locate the boots that she had worn to the White's, so she couldn't turn them over to investigators....yeah, right. How do you lose a pair of boots?

same place everything else went to,and she sure did come up w that package of oversized underwear when she needed to,didn't she.

 

[madeleine]

One possibility is that the fiber is there due to transfer or environmental. Pretty much any RDI 'explanation' for DNA could be used to explain fiber, Patty "hugged" JB with the sweater and jacket, and so it was on JB's person. Then a hypothetical IDI would transfer such stray fibers onto a sticky surface like tape




You know, we could actually sort of test out these ideas.

We ask group of volunteer young 6 year old blond wf who match JB in intelligence and psychology, with their parents full knowledge and consent.

We then ask them to meet them after bedtime, after everyone is fallen asleep, and see what % does so, or leave the door unlocked. We could vary the experiment by having them dress up as Santa claus or in plain clothes.

Let's suppose hypothetically speaking a group of child psychologists have an actor tell a 6 y/o wf that Santa is coming, and leave door unlocked or meet them after everyone has gone to sleep for a special visit and secret gift.

let's suppose out of "representative sample" of 6 y/o wf, 20, 19 comply. Then the likelihood JB might have done this is pretty good. If only 1/20 or 0 comply then the likelihood is pretty not so good.

I don't have preconceived notions of how most wf 6 y/o's would respond, and whether their response would differ based on closeness, dress, Santa clauss appearance, date of the year, etc. We could even vary using blacks, hispanics, boys, children of gay couples, poor children, low or high iq, christian or atheist, etc.

Of course this would beg the question of why this sort of thing doesn't happen more often? My reply is most people aren't child-killers. Now that I think about this, if this research were published, and showed most 6 y/o wf would leave a door unlocked for a "friend" they trust, I'm not sure that's such a good thing. If this is what research shows, then it kidnapping by some teenager where $118k is a lot of money, might be more plausible.



That's sort of the same objection I have about Burke -- if he were to wake up and saw what his parents were doing, how would they have responded? How could they be *sure*, short of death, that he would not tattle on them. Unless, of course, BDI.

There was something about Burke that I just can't forget,read it in PMPT.He said once you tell a secret it's no longer a secret.Who knows what he meant,maybe the R's thought he saw something and they manipulated him,he was small.

Re the BDI theory....yes I could understand that parents would wanna protect their child but pull something like that for it?the sexual assault,strangulation etc?It's just too much.If they staged it,it wasn't to cover for Burke IMO.It was because one of them(or both) did it.They covered THEIR OWN a&**((es IMO. (very sick a%^&*es in this case)

 

[BBB167893]

One possibility is that the fiber is there due to transfer or environmental. Pretty much any RDI 'explanation' for DNA could be used to explain fiber, Patty "hugged" JB with the sweater and jacket, and so it was on JB's person. Then a hypothetical IDI would transfer such stray fibers onto a sticky surface like tape

Actually, voynich, it's NOT that easy. For one thing, the fibers weren't found on JB's body. PLUS, PR's OWN explanation doesn't wash. (I hope she asked her lawyer for her money back, if she gave him any). I tackle these ideas in chapter three.

You know, we could actually sort of test out these ideas.

We ask group of volunteer young 6 year old blond wf who match JB in intelligence and psychology, with their parents full knowledge and consent.

We then ask them to meet them after bedtime, after everyone is fallen asleep, and see what % does so, or leave the door unlocked. We could vary the experiment by having them dress up as Santa claus or in plain clothes.

Let's suppose hypothetically speaking a group of child psychologists have an actor tell a 6 y/o wf that Santa is coming, and leave door unlocked or meet them after everyone has gone to sleep for a special visit and secret gift.

let's suppose out of "representative sample" of 6 y/o wf, 20, 19 comply. Then the likelihood JB might have done this is pretty good. If only 1/20 or 0 comply then the likelihood is pretty not so good.

I don't have preconceived notions of how most wf 6 y/o's would respond, and whether their response would differ based on closeness, dress, Santa clauss appearance, date of the year, etc. We could even vary using blacks, hispanics, boys, children of gay couples, poor children, low or high iq, christian or atheist, etc.

Of course this would beg the question of why this sort of thing doesn't happen more often? My reply is most people aren't child-killers. Now that I think about this, if this research were published, and showed most 6 y/o wf would leave a door unlocked for a "friend" they trust, I'm not sure that's such a good thing. If this is what research shows, then it kidnapping by some teenager where $118k is a lot of money, might be more plausible.

I think I'd better go lie down.

 

[voynich]

There was something about Burke that I just can't forget,read it in PMPT.He said once you tell a secret it's no longer a secret.Who knows what he meant,maybe the R's thought he saw something and they manipulated him,he was small.

Re the BDI theory....yes I could understand that parents would wanna protect their child but pull something like that for it?the sexual assault,strangulation etc?It's just too much.If they staged it,it wasn't to cover for Burke IMO.It was because one of them(or both) did it.They covered THEIR OWN a&**((es IMO. (very sick a%^&*es in this case)

If BDI, then what is the extent of B's involvement? Maybe he did the head bash, sexual assault, garroting, AND wrote the RN and staged the scene, either alone or with a "friend"

 

[voynich]

Actually, voynich, it's NOT that easy. For one thing, the fibers weren't found on JB's body. PLUS, PR's OWN explanation doesn't wash. (I hope she asked her lawyer for her money back, if she gave him any). I tackle these ideas in chapter three.


I think I'd better go lie down.

I thought they found some fibers on her labia *shrug*

If they didn't find JB own clothing fibers on JB's body, then that would explain why they didn't find PR's either.

 

[BBB167893]

I thought they found some fibers on her labia *shrug*

The fibers in her underwear were from JR. Not PR. Let's stay specific here, okay.

If they didn't find JB own clothing fibers on JB's body, then that would explain why they didn't find PR's either.

I'd say it's likely they DID find JB's own fibers on her body. But I hardly see how that would be important.

 

[voynich]

no more so than say,an intruder keeping one as a pet,then playing with it before coming to the R's house.not likely.
More likely that Patsy had some article that contained fur from this endangered species,than an intruder just happened to have some fur on himself.

pet beavors, LOL :woohoo:

You make a good point and one that makes me smile.

 

[voynich]

The fibers in her underwear were from JR. Not PR. Let's stay specific here, okay..

Oh. Ok. So PR's fibers were found on the garrotte and tape, and JR's fibers were found in her undies.

I'd say it's likely they DID find JB's own fibers on her body. But I hardly see how that would be important.

It's to be expected obviously, unless the washing was very thorough.

 

[BBB167893]

Oh. Ok. So PR's fibers were found on the garrotte and tape, and JR's fibers were found in her undies.

Far as I know. (Much better)

It's to be expected obviously, unless the washing was very thorough.

Washing? You lost me.

 

[voynich]

Far as I know. (Much better)

If I were R's I'd get me a lawyer ASAP then lol.

Washing? You lost me.

Her body was probably wiped up and re-dressed.

 

[BBB167893]

If I were R's I'd get me a lawyer ASAP then lol.

Yeah, that might be a good idea!

Her body was probably wiped up and re-dressed.

I see. Well, as far as I know, her vagina was wiped. And she was redressed, though to what degree is a subject of debate around here. But as for a full-body wash, I believe she hadn't had one for several days.

 

[DeeDee249]

I didn't know that paint brushes are made of beaver hair -- they seem to me to be mostly synthetic fibers (nylon). Not that I'm an expert but aren't beavers an endangered species?

So PR was wearing her jacket when she was garroting JB? Is there transfer of JB (hair, skin, rope fibers, beaver hair) on her jacket?

I am aware many of the items are unsourced, but they could be read as either RDI from their own items or IDI bringing with him rope, etc. The claim about the suitcase is that it was MOVED and deliberately placed under the open basement window (not that any RDI would believe this I know)

I taught fine arts in high school. Most smaller brushes are camel hair, but some are beaver hair.
PR took a YEAR to send her jacket to LE. ALL the clothes the Rs were wearing that night/day should have been turned over to LE on Dec. 26 1996. The R should not have been allowed to leave the house without doing so. When LE finally got the clothing approx. a year later, they said some of them looked new/unworn, and all looked like they had been washed or cleaned. There was just no way to be sure the clothes were the same clothes from that night or that they hadn't been washed or cleaned. They only way to have ensured that LE would have the exact clothes (unwashed and uncleaned) was to have taken them into evidence that day- and the ball was dropped on that score.

 

[voynich]

I taught fine arts in high school. Most smaller brushes are camel hair, but some are beaver hair.
PR took a YEAR to send her jacket to LE. ALL the clothes the Rs were wearing that night/day should have been turned over to LE on Dec. 26 1996. The R should not have been allowed to leave the house without doing so. When LE finally got the clothing approx. a year later, they said some of them looked new/unworn, and all looked like they had been washed or cleaned. There was just no way to be sure the clothes were the same clothes from that night or that they hadn't been washed or cleaned. They only way to have ensured that LE would have the exact clothes (unwashed and uncleaned) was to have taken them into evidence that day- and the ball was dropped on that score.

This is suspicious and sounds like the behavior of someone to hide.

 

[DeeDee249]

This is suspicious and sounds like the behavior of someone to hide.

Yep.

BTW, LE were able to match the fibers from the PR's fleece jacket and JR's Israeli-made wool shirt to the crime scene. But I haven't seen any other fiber evidence from any other clothing. There was mention of PR owning a pair of furry boots, which could have been beaver fur. She also had fur coats, and wore one from the home the night of the 26th. I have never seen if either her coats or boots were matched to the animal hair found on JBR. PR denied owning furry boots, but I believe other people said she had a pair. The Rs also denied that BR had a pair of those Hi-Tec shoes, but it was later found that he did own a pair, and I believe BR himself told LE he did.

 

[Ames]

I taught fine arts in high school. Most smaller brushes are camel hair, but some are beaver hair.
PR took a YEAR to send her jacket to LE. ALL the clothes the Rs were wearing that night/day should have been turned over to LE on Dec. 26 1996. The R should not have been allowed to leave the house without doing so. When LE finally got the clothing approx. a year later, they said some of them looked new/unworn, and all looked like they had been washed or cleaned. There was just no way to be sure the clothes were the same clothes from that night or that they hadn't been washed or cleaned. They only way to have ensured that LE would have the exact clothes (unwashed and uncleaned) was to have taken them into evidence that day- and the ball was dropped on that score.

Yep...and they never DID get those fur boots that Patsy wore to the White's party, because she "lost" them.

 

[Ames]

Yep.

BTW, LE were able to match the fibers from the PR's fleece jacket and JR's Israeli-made wool shirt to the crime scene. But I haven't seen any other fiber evidence from any other clothing. There was mention of PR owning a pair of furry boots, which could have been beaver fur. She also had fur coats, and wore one from the home the night of the 26th. I have never seen if either her coats or boots were matched to the animal hair found on JBR. PR denied owning furry boots, but I believe other people said she had a pair. The Rs also denied that BR had a pair of those Hi-Tec shoes, but it was later found that he did own a pair, and I believe BR himself told LE he did.

This is from my own post (#18) on this thread...

This is from the Bonita Papers..

CLOTHING

One of the problems in the investigation was delayed gathering of
evidence. It was not until almost a year after the murder that the Boulder police through D.A. Hofstrom finally asked for the clothing worn by Ramsey family members to Whites’ dinner party on the night of December 25. Fleet had taken photos during the holiday gathering which were turned over to the police department, and police request the clothing that was depicted in these photos. Another month would go by before the Ramseys, through their legal counsel and private investigators, would comply with this request.
At that time, two black shirts from John and black pants and a red and black checked sweater from Patsy were provided. Two months later additional clothing, a red short sleeved shirt and a red turtleneck shirt, were also turned over by Patsy through the private investigator. The police department was informed that since John owned several pairs of khaki pants matching those in the photograph, John had not been able to determine which pair were worn on December 25. Not only had all of this clothing probably been reworn and been through many cleaning or laundering processes, the move from the Ramsey home had been done by a professional moving company. once again, contamination of evidence obtained from these articles of clothing could very likely present problems in any prosecution.

Considering the delayed cooperation from the Ramseys in turning over the clothing, it was significant what items of clothing requested by the police department were not turned over. Patsy had told the officers that she had worn black short boots, to the White’s dinner party. The boots had never beaver been given to police officials in spite of repeated requests. At a subsequent session with the police department to give handwriting samples, Patsy had been wearing short black fur boots, and the detectives wondered if these were the boots that the Ramseys were saying they could not locate. The detectives were anxious to locate the fur boots to test for beaver hair.

------------------------

Yes, she did own a pair of fur boots...these are the ones that they "could not locate". (They were probably in that "moving crate" that had the rest of the package of the size 12 bloomies in it).

 

[Ames]

This is suspicious and sounds like the behavior of someone to hide.

Ummm hummmm....just "a little bit" suspicious.

 

[JMO8778]

pet beavors, LOL :woohoo:

You make a good point and one that makes me smile.

my other thought is that Mr Intruder ran a tri-athlon,first swimming through a beaver dam,riding 20 miles on a bike and then finishing up with running to the R's house.But oops!! that darn pesky beaver fur was still on him..

hehe.

 

[madeleine]

If BDI, then what is the extent of B's involvement? Maybe he did the head bash, sexual assault, garroting, AND wrote the RN and staged the scene, either alone or with a "friend"

He and his friend would have left traces.

 

[Ames]

He and his friend would have left traces.

Exactly! A nine year old and his "friend" wouldn't have enough knowledge to cover his tracks.