What if Leopold & Loeb writes the JB ransom note?

[voynich]

Except whomever wrote it DIDN'T recall them. Those lines are actually MISquoted. And this whole L&L thing just seems like projection to me. Making connections that aren't there.

Mr. Ramsey

Listen carefully! As you no doubt know by this time, your daughter has been kidnapped. Allow us to assure you that she is at present well and safe. if you want her to see 1997, you must follow our instructions to the letter. You need fear no physical harm for her, provided you line up carefully to the following instructions and to such others as you will receive by furture comminications. Should you, however, disobey any of our instructions, even slightly, will result in the immediate execution of your daughter.

For obvious reasons make absolutely no attempt to communicate with either police authorities or any private agency. If we catch you talking to a stray dog, she dies. If you alert bank authorities, she dies. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies. You will be scanned for electronic devices and if any are found, she dies You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the authorities. You can try to deceive us but be warned that we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics.

Secure before noon today $10,000. If the money is in any way marked or tampered with, she dies. Make sure that you bring an adequate size attache to the bank. When you get home you will put the money in a brown paper bag.The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested

Have the money with you, prepared as directed above, I will call you between 8 and 10 am tomorrow to instruct you on delivery. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them. See that the telephone is not in use.You will receive a further communication instructing you as to your final course.

As a final word of warning, this is an extremely commercial proposition and we are prepared to put our threat into execution should we have reasonable grounds to believe that you have committed an infraction of the above instructions. Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter. You will also be denied her remains for proper burial. Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult. The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them. Don't underestimate us John.

You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to out smart us. Follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back

If we monitor you getting the money early, we might call you early to arrange and earlier delivery of the money and hence a earlier delivery pick-up of your daughter. should you carefully follow out our instructions to the letter, we can assure you that you daughter will be safely returned to you within six hours of our receipt of the money. Use that good southern common sense of yours. It is up to you now John!

Yours truly,
ROIDI

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

L&L is more polished and formal, while JBR RN author is more violent. Its an interesting comparison because both L&L and JBR's killer presented an extortion scenario while actually carrying out sexual assault and murder.

 

[voynich]

L&L is more polished and formal, while JBR RN author is more violent. Its an interesting comparison because both L&L and JBR's killer presented an extortion scenario while actually carrying out sexual assault and murder.

Responding to Darth Dave, if RN shows literary dependence on LL, then would be very strong evidence of IDI over RDI, unless you believe PR and JB walks around the house with the LL note prior to the crime.


You can switch and rearrange sentences between the two and get the same message.

 

[BBB167893]

Responding to Darth Dave, if RN shows literary dependence on LL, then would be very strong evidence of IDI over RDI,


You can switch and rearrange sentences between the two and get the same message.

I honestly think you're barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Maikai]

I honestly think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Leopold & Loeb copycats were discussed previously on another forum, including a possible connection to Charlevoix.

Eeery coincidences include Loeb's father (executive of Sears) having a summer home in Charlevoix. There is still a descendant there that raises a special breed of cattle. The attorney representing L&L spent a great deal of time at the summer home with Loeb's father. Name of attorney escapes me, but he was well known. Loeb's father was in ill health, so a lot of the case work was done up at the summer home.

Leopold discovered a rare bird in the area, which became well known in bird circles. L&L spent time at the summer home and in the area.

There is still a large entertainment center there that the Loeb's owned at one time. Famous rock groups performed there, and I believe the Miss Charlevoix contest JBR won was held there.

Some strange occurrences around and after the murder include:

*Wheelchair man, who claims a man came running down the hill from the Ramsey house and wanted a ride to the airport. This was before the murder. The man said he hated John Ramsey and I believe said he was going to hurt his daughter. The wheelchair man claims he tried calling the Ramseys before the murder to report this incidence but couldn't get through to them. The Charlevoix police investigated, but nothing came of it.

*Another man (same one?) who wore a long coat and gloves with the fingers cut out, hung out at a gas station nearby. He saw John Ramsey getting gas, and started ranting and raving about how he hated him. This man was not a local and story was corroborated by a friend of the clerk at the station. The man also talked about skating in Colorado. Again, nothing became of it, but I believe there were some sketches done.

*Before the murder, in the fall, a housekeeper noticed a neatly packed suitcase in JBR's bedroom, with cowboy boots next to it. She assumed it was someone the Ramseys had let use the house. After the murder she reported it to the Ramseys and they had no knowledge of letting anyone use the house.

If you do a google search on the Leopold and Loeb murders, it will link to old newspaper articles. The media went crazy with the story--particularly after L&L were caught. Prior, a lot of suspects, and several people targeted. L&L were not your "usual suspects." What did them in were two things. A typewriter used to type the ransom note had an unusual character. The typewriter was stolen by L&L from a fraternity house for kicks. Leopold had unique glasses, with only two of them sold in Chicago at the time. He dropped them near Bobby Franks body, and they were traced back to Leopold.

 

[Maikai]

Bobby Franks body was found near 118th street...another ll8 coincidence.

 

[voynich]

I honestly think you're barking up the wrong tree.

Good is a point of view. :blowkiss:

 

[voynich]

Leopold & Loeb copycats were discussed previously on another forum,

What conclusions were drawn re: two RN? Did JB RN show influence from LLRN?

including a possible connection to Charlevoix.

Eeery coincidences include Loeb's father (executive of Sears) having a summer home in Charlevoix. There is still a descendant there that raises a special breed of cattle. The attorney representing L&L spent a great deal of time at the summer home with Loeb's father. Name of attorney escapes me, but he was well known. Loeb's father was in ill health, so a lot of the case work was done up at the summer home.

Leopold discovered a rare bird in the area, which became well known in bird circles. L&L spent time at the summer home and in the area.

There is still a large entertainment center there that the Loeb's owned at one time. Famous rock groups performed there, and I believe the Miss Charlevoix contest JBR won was held there.

Some strange occurrences around and after the murder include:

*Wheelchair man, who claims a man came running down the hill from the Ramsey house and wanted a ride to the airport. This was before the murder. The man said he hated John Ramsey and I believe said he was going to hurt his daughter. The wheelchair man claims he tried calling the Ramseys before the murder to report this incidence but couldn't get through to them. The Charlevoix police investigated, but nothing came of it.

*Another man (same one?) who wore a long coat and gloves with the fingers cut out, hung out at a gas station nearby. He saw John Ramsey getting gas, and started ranting and raving about how he hated him. This man was not a local and story was corroborated by a friend of the clerk at the station. The man also talked about skating in Colorado. Again, nothing became of it, but I believe there were some sketches done.

*Before the murder, in the fall, a housekeeper noticed a neatly packed suitcase in JBR's bedroom, with cowboy boots next to it. She assumed it was someone the Ramseys had let use the house. After the murder she reported it to the Ramseys and they had no knowledge of letting anyone use the house.

If you do a google search on the Leopold and Loeb murders, it will link to old newspaper articles. The media went crazy with the story--particularly after L&L were caught. Prior, a lot of suspects, and several people targeted. L&L were not your "usual suspects." What did them in were two things. A typewriter used to type the ransom note had an unusual character. The typewriter was stolen by L&L from a fraternity house for kicks. Leopold had unique glasses, with only two of them sold in Chicago at the time. He dropped them near Bobby Franks body, and they were traced back to Leopold.

This is interesting -- I think that the best way to establish this is to show the author of RN knew of LLRN

 

[BBB167893]

Good is a point of view. :blowkiss:

Maybe so. But, as you say, "I think that the best way to establish this is to show the author of RN knew of LLRN" So far I'm not convinced they did.

One of the things I always emphasize about this case is to have the proper respect for the difference between knowledge and wisdom. That's one thing both orders have in common.

 

[Ravyn]

Also this can go back to the Ramsey knowing cause Charleviox is a small town and that makes the history more exciting..

 

[Maikai]

What conclusions were drawn re: two RN? Did JB RN show influence from LLRN?



This is interesting -- I think that the best way to establish this is to show the author of RN knew of LLRN

From what I remember, some felt there was an L&L influence. There was more then one note. There was another with instructions on where to leave the money. IMO, I don't think there was a connection--the perp viewed movies---wasn't the type to do research. If he was copying L&L, then I think somewhere down the line he would want credit--and want the world to know he outsmarted everyone, by contacting the media to stir things up. I think there would have been more clues in the note referring back to L&L. As it is, it was a note full of movie lines and themes.

All these years later, I doubt most people in Charlevoix have any idea of the connection of L&L to Charlevoix. The weird events in Charlevoix before the murder are interesting, but so far have been deadends.

 

[voynich]

From what I remember, some felt there was an L&L influence. There was more then one note. There was another with instructions on where to leave the money. IMO, I don't think there was a connection--the perp viewed movies---wasn't the type to do research. If he was copying L&L, then I think somewhere down the line he would want credit--and want the world to know he outsmarted everyone, by contacting the media to stir things up. I think there would have been more clues in the note referring back to L&L. As it is, it was a note full of movie lines and themes.

All these years later, I doubt most people in Charlevoix have any idea of the connection of L&L to Charlevoix. The weird events in Charlevoix before the murder are interesting, but so far have been deadends.

Hi,
well I wrote " Do or do not do, there is no try: RN & LLRN"

I'd like to point out that there is nothining in the LLRN to show they read Nietzsche, the Great Books of WEstern Civ, studied law at Univ of Chicago, knew a lot about birds, languages, and mathematics.

I saw a documentary on these two on TruTV or AETV -- I don't recall the second note being mentioned. I of course recall "Clarence Darrow, of Evolution v.s Creation William Jenny Bryan fame" defended them. That documentary did talk about the first note. Of course they talked about Nietzsche, with the suggestion that he influenced not only LL but, of course, Hitler.

AETV has a documentary hosted by Dominic Donne where they talk about cases like the Menendez brothers and rich murders for insurance money. -- I mention this b/c an IDI in addition to watching movies can watch true crime documentaries, 1 hour long.

 

[Sophie]

This is probably a stupid question, but would the Leopold and Loeb stuff have been the subject of any course of study at CU in 1996?

Voynich, have you read Donna Tartt's 'Secret History?' If so, is that the sort of scenario you are envisaging?

 

[voynich]

This is probably a stupid question, but would the Leopold and Loeb stuff have been the subject of any course of study at CU in 1996?

Voynich, have you read Donna Tartt's 'Secret History?' If so, is that the sort of scenario you are envisaging?

Honestly no. Is JB subject of any course anywhere?

 

[Sophie]

Honestly no. Is JB subject of any course anywhere?

Sorry, I didn't mean a course specifically about Leopold and Leob. I rather meant it being, say, a course module or something. I gather JB has been looked at in some criminology and media studies courses (although I gather that purely from anecdotes from people on the various JB sites). I did a dissertion on JB for the criminology elective part of my Masters and used some scholarship from various US universities as my sources although that was when the JBR case was still quite fresh....

 

[voynich]

Sorry, I didn't mean a course specifically about Leopold and Leob. I rather meant it being, say, a course module or something. I gather JB has been looked at in some criminology and media studies courses (although I gather that purely from anecdotes from people on the various JB sites). I did a dissertion on JB for the criminology elective part of my Masters and used some scholarship from various US universities as my sources although that was when the JBR case was still quite fresh....

LL, Black Dahlia, Menendez brothers, Ted Bundy, JTR, ZK, Samuel Shapperd, Cleveland Torso murderer, Jeffrey MacDonald, Jimmy Haufra, JFK assassination, Area 51 and Roswell, Bigfoot, Nostradamus OJ SIMPSON, has been on tv documentaries. Some have had movies made like Adam Walsh .America's Most Wanted also talks about cases, 48 hours, 60 minutes, 20/20

I take it your dissertation is of the RDI

 

[Sophie]

LL, Black Dahlia, Menendez brothers, Ted Bundy, JTR, ZK, Samuel Shapperd, Cleveland Torso murderer, Jeffrey MacDonald, Jimmy Haufra, JFK assassination, Area 51 and Roswell, Bigfoot, Nostradamus OJ SIMPSON, has been on tv documentaries. Some have had movies made like Adam Walsh .America's Most Wanted also talks about cases, 48 hours, 60 minutes, 20/20

I take it your dissertation is of the RDI

Not really - the guilt or innocence aspect was actually secondary to the investigation aspect.

I know what you mean about the constant coverage on TV of crimes: you can't switch on the TV here without knowing that at least ten digital channels will be covering some crime or another and that you are never more than a day away from some discussion of Jack the Ripper. We also get pretty much all the US documentaries, too, at some point.

I think I articulated myself badly. I was idly wondering whether you were envisaging a couple of students getting interested in Leopold and Leob while studying them and their psychological synergie being such that they decided to pull off a similar crime.

 

[voynich]

Not really - the guilt or innocence aspect was actually secondary to the investigation aspect.

I know what you mean about the constant coverage on TV of crimes: you can't switch on the TV here without knowing that at least ten digital channels will be covering some crime or another and that you are never more than a day away from some discussion of Jack the Ripper. We also get pretty much all the US documentaries, too, at some point.

I think I articulated myself badly. I was idly wondering whether you were envisaging a couple of students getting interested in Leopold and Leob while studying them and their psychological synergie being such that they decided to pull off a similar crime.

WHile Amy's rapist is my main IDI suspect (described by Amy and her mother as tall young white mall, slender, good shape) and I do not know if he's a college student, yes your scenario is something I favor --- is that what the book is about?

 

[Sophie]

Ty, Voynich.

Ssecret History is a novel about a group of college students studying Classics at college in Vermont who are sort of seduced into an unhealthy passion for the rites of the ancient world by their own strangeness and an incredibly charming professor. They hold a Bacchanal and end up killing someone accidentally but then they conspire to murder someone else who is aware of what they have done and is blackmailing them in a juvenile sort of way. The students are all really clever and idiosyncratic and would, had they never met each other, have led totally innocent lives. Your Leopold and Loeb stuff has set me to thinking about that novel quite a lot and musing that the students in 'Secret History' would have been 'ideal' candidates for a recreation of the LL crime. It's a brilliant novel. IMHO, the best of the 90s. From reading your posts, I think you'd enjoy it.

Coincidentally, Donna Tartt's other novel, 'The Little Friend' is about a small boy's murder and his sister trying to solve the crime. This is set in Mississipi and isn't as obviously based on JBR's case as, say, 'My Sister, My Love' by Joyce Caroll Oates, but it has one or two parallels with the JBR story.

 

[voynich]

Ty, Voynich.

Ssecret History is a novel about a group of college students studying Classics at college in Vermont who are sort of seduced into an unhealthy passion for the rites of the ancient world by their own strangeness and an incredibly charming professor. They hold a Bacchanal and end up killing someone accidentally but then they conspire to murder someone else who is aware of what they have done and is blackmailing them in a juvenile sort of way. The students are all really clever and idiosyncratic and would, had they never met each other, have led totally innocent lives. Your Leopold and Loeb stuff has set me to thinking about that novel quite a lot and musing that the students in 'Secret History' would have been 'ideal' candidates for a recreation of the LL crime. It's a brilliant novel. IMHO, the best of the 90s. From reading your posts, I think you'd enjoy it.

Coincidentally, Donna Tartt's other novel, 'The Little Friend' is about a small boy's murder and his sister trying to solve the crime. This is set in Mississipi and isn't as obviously based on JBR's case as, say, 'My Sister, My Love' by Joyce Caroll Oates, but it has one or two parallels with the JBR story.

Kinda sounds like premise for a Blair Witch type movie.

After reading this then yes, I would say that this is something I do think.

Amy's rapist knowing of movies and LLRN are not mutually exclusive. Obviously I do not know if he is a college student.