Premeditation

[RR0004]

I don't mean to make this sound strident or harsh, but there is no such thing as "guilty in general".

I have no idea what happened, and I'm not sure that anyone else has any clearer idea of what happened than I do.

(Read through this forum, there are hundreds, if not thousands of notions and hypos as to what happened (transpired). In turn, this immense difference of opinion (ideas) represents almost no certainty whatsover.)

I don't mean to pick...but there is guilt vs innocence. When does anyone know what happened exactly? Unless we were there, we will never know exactly what happened to Caylee...even after the trial we may not have a clearer picture. But, I have faith that the SA has the evidence to support the charges and I look forward to it being laid out before us.

 

[tweety933]

Is premeditation "THE" required element to be given a death sentence verses Life without Parole?

If so, what evidence have we seen that has been released in the discovery, to prove this element beyond a reasonable doubt in your minds?

I've read that some posters believe the placement of the duct tape proves premeditation, and computer searches for household weapons, such as chloroform does as well. Is there any others?

 

[Imbackon]

snip..

(Though I'm not sure that bothers you or would bother you if you were seated on the jury).

You're right!
I'd convict her based on her actions alone. Just seeing her with her arms around Tony at Blockbuster is enough for me. No innocent person, especially a mother would be walking around renting movies soon after having their daughter "kidnapped". Smell of death in the car, not reporting her missing, pretending she was with a non existent Zanny the Nanny, never reporting her missing blah blah blah all spells it out for me. She admitted and it will be presented as part of the evidence, that "nothing she has done so far (to help LE) will help find Caylee", so there you have it.
I'd volunteer to put the needle in her arm, if you want to know the truth.
ETA I'm actually not pro DP got carried away making the point. I might vote Dp if this was my only option however because I am so convinced of her guilt.

 

[RR0004]

Is premeditation "THE" required element to be given a death sentence verses Life without Parole?

If so, what evidence have we seen that has been released in the discovery, to prove this element beyond a reasonable doubt in your minds?

I've read that some posters believe the placement of the duct tape proves premeditation, and computer searches for household weapons, such as chloroform does as well. Is there any others?

No, I don't think premeditation is the only element necessary...just the one that's being considered here.

 

[Imbackon]

Is premeditation "THE" required element to be given a death sentence verses Life without Parole?

If so, what evidence have we seen that has been released in the discovery, to prove this element beyond a reasonable doubt in your minds?

I've read that some posters believe the placement of the duct tape proves premeditation, and computer searches for household weapons, such as chloroform does as well. Is there any others?

Being with Tony right afterwords and being all lovey dovey I think shows premeditation, because if it was an accident she would have been too distraught to be all kissy kissy.
Premeditation means you WANTED THEM TO DIE (even if it was only for a moment prior), and her need to be with her boyfriend, and not having a sitter, and Caylee not exactly being welcome to stay at Tony's house was enough of a motive for her .
Her moving in with him from that day forward, shows what her intent was.
Note: evidence of lack of sitter will be the flurry of calls (that were unreturned) to mom and dad just prior to leaving to meeting up with Tony.

I think the evidence that has not been presented yet will be sworn testimony from Tony that there was no plan for Caylee to be with them that night and to whom she stated would be watching Caylee that night.

 

[RR0004]

I would never have been able to figure out titcr!! Actually, I thought it might have to do with a body part. LOL

 

[seekingjustice**]

(Read through this forum, there are hundreds, if not thousands of notions and hypos as to what happened (transpired). In turn, this immense difference of opinion (ideas) represents almost no certainty whatsover.)

I agree there have been immense differences of opinion throughout this forum. The one certainty I have noticed though, at the end of each hypothesis, the conclusion is GUILTY!!

 

[RR0004]

I agree there have been immense differences of opinion throughout this forum. The one certainty I have noticed though, at the end of each hypothesis, the conclusion is GUILTY!!

Thank you for stating that...cause for a minute I had forgotten why we were here..oh, yeah to discuss cases.

 

[RR0004]

i don't see how this case can be "in tune with other convictions" when a jury has yet to be seated, a case has yet to be tried, and a verdict has not been rendered. I think only after the trial concludes, could one speculate that the jury based their verdict upon the defendant's behavior.

POTD! I think that considering a "wrongful conviction" as a forgone conclusion doesn't leave much room for discussion.

 

[Curious Me]

Imagine Casey admits Caylee died due to some unavoidable accident. She just panicked and was too afraid to tell her parents. She frantically decides to stage a kidnapping. She only applied duct tape and dumped the body like garbage to stage a kidnapping because she was scared Cindy and George would never forgive her. You can even imagine her crying real tears finally and showing what looks like remorse.

Of course, she'll have to explain how she managed to pull herself together enough to show up at TonE's and go to Blockbuster to rent murder videos. She'll have to explain that she wasn't really looking for the imaginary nanny when she went to Fusion and got up on stage smiling. She just partied to make herself feel better. You know all the antics I can mention. 31 days of happy go lucky stealing and shopping. How is all this going to fit together with Caylee died accidently and Casey was totally grieving during that time period? IMO, no jury is going to believe the ugly coping bs. Defense must really feel stumped at this point.

 

[sleutherontheside]

Imagine Casey admits Caylee died due to some unavoidable accident.* She just panicked and was too afraid to tell her parents.* She frantically decides to stage a kidnapping.* She only applied duct tape and dumped the body like garbage to stage a kidnapping because she was scared Cindy and George would never forgive her.*** You can even imagine her crying real tears finally and showing what looks like remorse.Of course, she'll have to explain how she managed to pull herself together enough to show up at TonE's and go to Blockbuster to rent murder videos.* She'll have to explain that she wasn't really looking for the imaginary nanny when she went to Fusion and got up on stage smiling.* She just partied to make herself feel better.** You know all the antics I can mention.* 31 days of happy go lucky stealing and shopping.* How is all this going to fit together with Caylee died accidently and Casey was totally grieving during that time period?** IMO, no jury is going to believe the ugly coping bs.* Defense must really feel stumped at this point.

ITA...If KC were ever concerned enough to stage the kidnapping (duct tape) then she should have hidden out, dropped off the radar. and made it look like she was out searching.* She didn't even drop out of sight for longer than it took to dump the body.* She went about her way and enjoyed the beautiful life.* To argue later that it was an accident will not fly with ugly coping because to argue that, she would have had to admit that Caylee had died and she was having a hard time dealing with it.* According to her attorney, KC thought Caylee was alive and she was protecting her.* I wonder if KC realizes now that her little scheme could have worked had she played it differently AND if her attorney had never made a statement???

 

[marspiter]

I am going to take a really wild guess here and speculate that we have yet to see all the states evidence.

Other then an eye witness or a confession all other evidence is circumstantial. (just wanted to toss that out there).

I find it interesting that the defense has not in any of its numerous media appearances mentioned accident or tried to remotely explain any of Casey's actions other then ugly coping.

So far all we have seen from the defense is smoke and mirrors in an attempt to punch holes in the evidence we have already seen. The only theory we have heard is that Casey is innocent and that some mysterious killer is still out there (yet the defense isn't looking for this killer to exonerate Casey). This killer could be any one of the people Casey knew but possibly not known by anyone Casey knew.

We know Caylee is dead this is a fact proven by DNA and hair samples (It's in the doc dumps). Now Caylee was last known to be in the custody of her mother. Her mothers car has decomposition chemicals in the trunk. Cadaver dogs hit on the area twice if I recall as well as multiple witnesses giving statements as to what they smelled in the car (George being one of those witnesses which is interesting because he is trying to protect his daughter too). You then have the child found near the A home with duct tape placed over the face (lets face it the tape didn't just cover the mouth). At the scene you have multiple items that can be traced back to the A home. You then have Casey's actions and her testimony and the actions of her defense (defense not posturing accident theory). This is just a quick run down. Keep in mind there are piles and piles of more circumstantial evidence in this case I was just giving a brief highlight to it (phone pings, texts, computer, searches, ect.).

Now with the entire multitude of evidence we have seen I believe any reasonable person can look at this evidence and determine for themselves what it says (a juror is allowed to use their own reasoning skills to conclude a verdict). An overwhelming majority on this forum feel it points to Casey's guilt. I would argue that WS is a pretty good example of what the potential jury would look like..a litmus test if you will. (WS is however not a court of law...just tossing that out). Yes the readers here at WS are educated about this case but the jury would be as well maybe even more so after the evidence is presented.

Also if one commits a crime does it mean they are not guilty because they were able to cover their tracks? The courts have pretty much answered that question. The court has determined that murder convictions can take place with out the body and with out the cause of death (cases citing this were in the previous discussion threads about premeditation and court procedure..People v. Scott 176 Cal. App. 2d 458 is a good example). I don't remember the actual case name but in British law (once again my vague memory) there was a case with a doctor who murdered people and placed the bodies in drums of acid (maybe it was a strong base) to cover the crimes. Its a vague memory, but if I recall he was convicted and the courts ruled that he was guilty and that just because he successfully covered up the crime does not mean he is not guilty of it (I have no links for this as it was a story I heard in my college classes a number of years ago).

Now is there smoking gun evidence such as a note from Casey or an eyewitness that saw Casey commit this horrible crime? No there is not. Is there a mountain of evidence that points to Casey and only Casey to committing this crime. Yes (my opinion).

I would contest that the evidence in this case, followed by Casey's actions before, during, and after Caylee's death support premeditation. I would also contest that we have yet to see all the the evidence in this case from the State. I would also state that the only evidence presented thus far by the defense is a witness list and a confirmation of the states evidence. The defense on its numerous media appearances has stated they have evidence of Casey's innocence. When pushed to present said evidence the defense could only confirm what the state has already released.

 

[JBean]

This is the last time I am going to say this.
if anyone does not approve of a topic or think it has been discussed to death or think a decision has been arrived at by most members here and so it does not merit discussion, don't post in the thread. Don't admonish others for continuing to discuss it, don't assert a conclusion has been reached and so the conversation should be over.
There are plenty of threads here that I have no interest in revisting or rehashing, so i do not click on them. Others may still be discussing the ins and outs of something I am satisfied with.

If you are not interested in adding to a topic, find another one. Oh and it is always a good idea to read a threada before admonishing others for posting on a topic.

 

[LiveLaughLuv]

I would never have been able to figure out titcr!! Actually, I thought it might have to do with a body part. LOL

Hi RR...just "binged" it..It stands for:

What does TITCR stand for?
This Is the Credited Response

http://www.acronymfinder.com/This-Is-the-Credited-Response-(TITCR).html

Hope that helps and it is what it stands for..

 

[ZsaZsa]

While Dr. G. will not likely testify that death was caused by asphyxiation to a degree of medical certainty, she may very well opine that it was the likely cause of death, imo.

I would like to ask one question of the M.E. and I hope the SA will ask it too.
What would be the effect of securing duct tape over the nose and mouth of a living person?

 

[JBean]

I would like to ask one question of the M.E. and I hope the SA will ask it too.
What would be the effect of securing duct tape over the nose and mouth of a living person?

If she believes with reasonable certainty that this is what killed Caylee,then she will most likely testify to this at the trial.

 

[Wudge]

I agree there have been immense differences of opinion throughout this forum. The one certainty I have noticed though, at the end of each hypothesis, the conclusion is GUILTY!!

The point is that based on all the evidence in the public domain, people in this forum have hundreds, if not thousands, of different holdings on what transpired. Obviously, this immemse breadth of view and holding points to an immense lack of clarity -- a smog pot centric case. This is true not only as regards premeditation and the murder one charge, but lesser charges as well.

This lack of clarity exists, because the evidence itself does not provide a high degree of clarity. And when the evidence does not provide a high degree of clarity, then people must necessarily guess amongst a large number of options. The problem is that jurors are forbidden to guess (or assume or specuate), because the degree of certainly demanded at the level of 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt' certaintly cannot be satisfied by guessing.

As I have said elsewhere, this goes to explain why so many poor souls who got caught up in a high-profile case have been wrongfully demonized in monstrous ways or, worse still, have been or were wrongfully convicted and imprisoned.

 

[ZsaZsa]

From the myriad of posts I have read, on this site and others, there has been a lot of rumination about the events leading up to, and after Caylee's death. There is No smog about when the vast majorityof members post their ultimate conclusion, that Casey killed Caylee.

 

[Wudge]

Is premeditation "THE" required element to be given a death sentence verses Life without Parole?

If so, what evidence have we seen that has been released in the discovery, to prove this element beyond a reasonable doubt in your minds?

I've read that some posters believe the placement of the duct tape proves premeditation, and computer searches for household weapons, such as chloroform does as well. Is there any others?

In most every state, premeditation (planning and deliberation in most states) is a key element of a murder one charge, as is intent (willful). Most states also hold that malice aforethought be proven. However, for the purposes of this case, this thread and Florida law, premeditation is the centerpiece element of murder one that is being discussed.

 

[bamafide]

Since hearing about the the duct tape on little CAYLEE'S mouth and nose, I've always felt... That after the fight that had happened between KC and CA, when KC took CAYLEE from the home that night. I can just see KC bad mouthing about CA in front of CAYLEE and telling her that she would never see CA again....CAYLEE crying for CA and KC placing the duct tape on her to shut her up.