Ask for foreign help?

[Holdontoyourhat]

It seems the investigation is going nowhere.


The ransom note author claims some foreign involvement and highlights a disrespect for the U.S.:

"We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We respect your business but not the country..."


There are no domestic leads. No domestic DNA or handwriting match. Nobody has come forward anywhere in this country to claim knowledge of the owner of the handwriting. Where is this leading?

To Russia? To China?

These are big countries with big investigative services, and like the U.S. have their own history with serial killers, child killers, and political extremism.

Should the U.S. involve Russia, China, both, or neither?

 

[MurriFlower]

It seems the investigation is going nowhere.


The ransom note author claims some foreign involvement and highlights a disrespect for the U.S.:

"We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We respect your business but not the country..."


There are no domestic leads. No domestic DNA or handwriting match. Nobody has come forward anywhere in this country to claim knowledge of the owner of the handwriting. Where is this leading?

To Russia? To China?

These are big countries with big investigative services, and like the U.S. have their own history with serial killers, child killers, and political extremism.

Should the U.S. involve Russia, China, both, or neither?

Why would a foreign nation have done this in your opinion?

 

[madeleine]

"We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We respect your business but not the country..."


Seems pretty stupid for a SFF.
We respect your business but not the country that it serves.(NOT a logic argument)
Then why not go and kidnapp a politician or ask money from the government you hate so much.
So they respected JR's business but they don't respected JR?Why?
Is this why they killed and tortured his little child,because they hated America or some other country JR had business with?They would have killed more if they wanted to prove something.

 

[madeleine]

Such people have big ego's
Why ask for only 118.000 when the hate must be SO BIG in order to kill and torture a kid.
It's an embarrassing sum for a SFF.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

China

• Gong Runbo: found guilty of the murders of six children and teenagers aged between nine and 16 from 2005 to 2006
• Huang Yong: between September 2001 and 2003 killed at least 17 teenage boys; executed in 2003
• Shen Changyin and Shen Changping: found guilty of the murders of 11 prostitutes
• Yang Xinhai: confessed to killing 65 people between 2000 and 2003; executed in 2004

Russia

• Valeriy Asratyan: arrested in 1990 and convicted of three murders and dozens of cases of sexual abuse; executed
• Andrei Chikatilo: AKA "The Rostov Ripper"; killed 52 women and children throughout the Soviet Union; arrested, convicted and executed in 1994
• Sergey Golovkin: AKA "The Fisher" killed 11 boys between 1986 and 1992
• Vasiliy Kulik: killed 13 people aged between seven months and 75 years; executed
• Maxim Petrov: AKA "Doctor Killer" and "Doctor Death"; doctor who killed 12 patients
• Alexander Pichushkin: AKA "The Chessboard Killer"; convicted of 48 murders; confessed to killing 63
• Sergei Ryakhovsky: AKA "The Hippopotamus"; convicted of the murders of 19 people aged between 14 and 78
• Darya Saltykova: 18th century countess who tortured and killed serfs on her estate
• Anatoly Slivko: convicted of killing seven young boys; executed
• Alexander Spesivtsev: cannibal convicted of the murders of 19 women

Japan

• Sataro Fukiage: raped and killed at least seven girls in the early 20th century
• Hiroaki Hidaka: killed four prostitutes in 1996; executed on December 25, 2006
• Miyuki Ishikawa: murdered an estimated 103, but could have been up to 169 infants in the 1940s
• Yoshio Kodaira: rapist thought to have killed 11 people in Japan and Chinese people as a soldier
• Genzo Kurita: killed six women and two children and engaged in rape and necrophilia
• Hiroshi Maeue: AKA "Suicide Website Murderer"; lured people from suicide clubs promising to kill himself with his victims
• Futoshi Matsunaga and Junko Ogata: AKA "House of Horror"; tortured and killed at least seven people between 1996 and 1998, including Ogata's family
• Tsutomu Miyazaki: AKA "The Otaku Murderer", "The Little Girl Murderer" and "Dracula"; killed four preschool-age girls and ate the hand of a victim; executed in 2008
• Seisaku Nakamura: AKA "Hamamatsu Deaf Killer", murdered at least nine people
• Akira Nishiguchi: killed five people and engaged in fraud
• Kiyoshi Ōkubo: raped and murdered eight young women during 41 days in 1971

 

[Roy23]

It seems the investigation is going nowhere.


The ransom note author claims some foreign involvement and highlights a disrespect for the U.S.:

"We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We respect your business but not the country..."


There are no domestic leads. No domestic DNA or handwriting match. Nobody has come forward anywhere in this country to claim knowledge of the owner of the handwriting. Where is this leading?

To Russia? To China?

These are big countries with big investigative services, and like the U.S. have their own history with serial killers, child killers, and political extremism.

Should the U.S. involve Russia, China, both, or neither?

I really don't Holdon. I personally believe it is an American whether they have some foreign roots or not. None of these countries could give a rats ### about this, and no real foreign faction would do something like this on such a small scale unless they were doing it to a lot of others as well.

That is my .02

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I really don't Holdon. I personally believe it is an American whether they have some foreign roots or not. None of these countries could give a rats ### about this, and no real foreign faction would do something like this on such a small scale unless they were doing it to a lot of others as well.

That is my .02

This is a high-handed assumption, not unlike the grand RDI assumption: "no self-respecting ransom kidnapper would leave the body there."

High-handed meaning that as an assumption goes, it lacks the support it needs since we don't really know what happened. Here in 2010, anything is possible. There are no borders, no narrowing of a suspect pool by any class, nationality, citizenship, location, or anything.

Now that DNA and handwriting samples have been out there for years, the lack of local or domestic leads should be a clue to most people.

I can see we're a little vague on what a foreign faction is exactly. Some seem to be thinking its a government wing or a foreign country.

 

[madeleine]

Now that DNA and handwriting samples have been out there for years, the lack of local or domestic leads should be a clue to most people.

Yep.Incompetent LE.Those domestic/local leads were not followed properly.That's why I can't exclude local people and move on to foreign.

 

[madeleine]

BUT if you'd ask me where I'd look if it would be FACT that it was a SFF,I would vote for Asia.Don't ask me why,I don't have a rational argument,it's just a feeling.

:twocents:

 

[Roy23]

This is a high-handed assumption, not unlike the grand RDI assumption: "no self-respecting ransom kidnapper would leave the body there."

High-handed meaning that as an assumption goes, it lacks the support it needs since we don't really know what happened. Here in 2010, anything is possible. There are no borders, no narrowing of a suspect pool by any class, nationality, citizenship, location, or anything.

Now that DNA and handwriting samples have been out there for years, the lack of local or domestic leads should be a clue to most people.

I can see we're a little vague on what a foreign faction is exactly. Some seem to be thinking its a government wing or a foreign country.

Please don't compare my thoughts on it to RDI. That is really not fair. It is not that unusual that no DNA match has been made. There are thousands of unmatched DNA items in the system now. And as far as handwriting matches, don't make me laugh. Sure go ahead and send that handwriting to China. I do get your definition of FF now so I am sure it is a possibility.

To me, this whole case is about a bunch of Dumb @@@ cops who totally screwed up trying to get back to their Xmas holidays. Instead of just accepting it, they tried to cover their own fannies by instagating the blame on the family. And the the FBI's John Douglas playbook gave them just the tools to do it. Even though Agent Douglas tried to tell them the Ramsey's don't fit the scenario.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Yep.Incompetent LE.Those domestic/local leads were not followed properly.That's why I can't exclude local people and move on to foreign.

I disagree two ways. First, local people could be involved. Could be DNA match or handwriting match. It seems to me that the opposite is true: foreign has been fully excluded despite claim by the one who would know best.

Second, the BPD is armed with DNA, handwriting, and a desire for a solution. Believe me, they aren't hell-bent on RDI. They're hell-bent on a working solution--the right solution. The fact that PR or JR were never arrested is evidence of their commitment to justice.

They knew they didn't have any evidence that PR or JR killed their daughter.

Somebody CAN match the DNA exactly. Someone CAN match the handwriting or linguistics exactly, because the RN was large enough to provide a satisfactory basis.

Nobody--repeat nobody--tested locally or domestically matches either the DNA or the handwriting.

IMO to suspect a person who matches neither the DNA nor the handwriting is folly, and smacks of the same lynch-mob mentality that plagued the R's for a long time. Plagued them until the BPD couldn't match PR to the handwriting and then finally the DNA of an unknown male was discovered by the FBI on the inside crotch of JBR's underwear.

 

[MurriFlower]

I disagree two ways. First, local people could be involved. Could be DNA match or handwriting match. It seems to me that the opposite is true: foreign has been fully excluded despite claim by the one who would know best.

Second, the BPD is armed with DNA, handwriting, and a desire for a solution. Believe me, they aren't hell-bent on RDI. They're hell-bent on a working solution--the right solution. The fact that PR or JR were never arrested is evidence of their commitment to justice.

They knew they didn't have any evidence that PR or JR killed their daughter.

Somebody CAN match the DNA exactly. Someone CAN match the handwriting or linguistics exactly, because the RN was large enough to provide a satisfactory basis.

Nobody--repeat nobody--tested locally or domestically matches either the DNA or the handwriting.

IMO to suspect a person who matches neither the DNA nor the handwriting is folly, and smacks of the same lynch-mob mentality that plagued the R's for a long time. Plagued them until the BPD couldn't match PR to the handwriting and then finally the DNA of an unknown male was discovered by the FBI on the inside crotch of JBR's underwear.

Hi HOTYH

Can you please take us through the who, why and how of your ideas? I find it a bit unrealistic, but then I've never heard your whole theory.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Why would a foreign nation have done this in your opinion?

Hi HOTYH

Can you please take us through the who, why and how of your ideas? I find it a bit unrealistic, but then I've never heard your whole theory.

The rules of this forum are clear that what you're asking me to do isn't allowed.

 

[MurriFlower]

The rules of this forum are clear that what you're asking me to do isn't allowed.

Really?? I thought that's what we were here for!

 

[madeleine]

First, local people could be involved.

I don't disagree.And I am sure that if SFF they had local help.What I don't get is,why call themselves a SFF if what they were asking for doesn't fit their profile.What was their motivation.If it was only money then why even sign it.If it was about the torture why ask for such a sum (low for a SFF).

foreign has been fully excluded

I agree with this.No matter how silly it sounded they should have checked this as well.

 

[BBB167893]

I really don't Holdon. I personally believe it is an American whether they have some foreign roots or not. None of these countries could give a rats ### about this, and no real foreign faction would do something like this on such a small scale unless they were doing it to a lot of others as well.

That is my .02

That's why I like you, Roy.

Please don't compare my thoughts on it to RDI. That is really not fair.

Perhaps I spoke too soon.

And the the FBI's John Douglas playbook gave them just the tools to do it. Even though Agent Douglas tried to tell them the Ramsey's don't fit the scenario.

The problem is, he went AGAINST his own playbook to do it. That's not just my opinion. Just about every FBI agent who uses those techniques called him on it. He didn't like that. Tell you what, Roy; you want to talk about people in this case whose egos were more important than justice? I can't think of a better place to start.

 

[BBB167893]

The fact that PR or JR were never arrested is evidence of their commitment to justice.

Are you kidding? The fact that they weren't arrested is evidence of the DA's LACK of committment. I tried to explain that a few weeks ago when I started a thread devoted to the DA's office. The police WANTED to arrest them, HOTYH. The FBI and the Dream Team guys TOLD them to arrest them.

They knew they didn't have any evidence that PR or JR killed their daughter.

Is that why they spent two days presenting it?

Plagued them until the BPD couldn't match PR to the handwriting

Chet Ubowski told the GJ that he was 99% sure she wrote it. Doesn't sound like they "couldn't match it" to me!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Are you kidding? The fact that they weren't arrested is evidence of the DA's LACK of committment. I tried to explain that a few weeks ago when I started a thread devoted to the DA's office. The police WANTED to arrest them, HOTYH. The FBI and the Dream Team guys TOLD them to arrest them.

Just giving credit where credit is due. They're patting themselves on the back right now for not lynch-mobbing JR and PR. If what you say is true then maybe they should be counting their lucky stars instead.

Is that why they spent two days presenting it?

Maybe, because if the evidence were real and substantial then ba da bing...the presentation would probably last only 3 or 4 minutes!

Chet Ubowski told the GJ that he was 99% sure she wrote it. Doesn't sound like they "couldn't match it" to me!

BPD couldn't match PR's handwriting to the ransom note. They tried, they failed. Saying they succeeded anyway seems like sour grapes or denial or reading your own news...I'm really not sure which.

To illustrate, why don't you pick the closest match to an actual headline:

1. "PR's Handwriting Found to Match Ransom Note"
2. "DNA Exhonerates the R's"

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Please don't compare my thoughts on it to RDI. That is really not fair. It is not that unusual that no DNA match has been made. There are thousands of unmatched DNA items in the system now. And as far as handwriting matches, don't make me laugh. Sure go ahead and send that handwriting to China. I do get your definition of FF now so I am sure it is a possibility.

But the handwriting is already in China. And Russia.

 

[MurriFlower]

Originally Posted by MurriFlower View Post
Hi HOTYH

Can you please take us through the who, why and how of your ideas? I find it a bit unrealistic, but then I've never heard your whole theory.


HOTYH: The rules of this forum are clear that what you're asking me to do isn't allowed.

Please answer, where does it say you can't post your theory? If you are worring about possible racist implications, I'm happy to assume this SFF was from another planet. Planet X. They were Xlings. Does this help?