Twa

[OzzieMum]

Thanks Oz' I am pretty sure TWA flew internationally - see Sherlocks attachments.

2)I do not think id was required for airline tickets in the 70's. I'm going to 'guess' that because I remember my great uncle born in the teens did not ever get a credit card until one was required to reserve a rental car and I recall that happening sometime in the 80's. I'd bet one just had to walk to the counter and give their name and flight information.

don't recall about the age of kids flying free. Any flying I have done with a child is after 2000.

Anyone here fly with their kiddo's in the early 70's?

Thanks Cubby.

I didn't think you would have needed ID as it was "pre-terrorism" as we know it today and security wasn't that tight. Having said that, even today it's not impossible to fly domestically under someone else's name (here in Australia anyway). My partner is a recruiting officer, or scout as you call them, for our major league football and they used to use frequent flyer points to fly people around Australia. It was simple, the ticket was purchased under a persons name and that person would go to the airport and collect the ticket and then hand it over to the person that was flying. You don't have to show ID once you have the boarding pass. Apparently it can still be done even now with E ticketing for the same reason. Joe Blogs sitting beside you could actually be Osama Bin Terrorist. Scary hey?

I would still like to know if Anna could have flown for free if anyone knows. Annasmom?

 

[Julessleuther]

I can answer some of the questions:

1. Yes, TWA had international flights in the 70's, many flights.

2. Most likely you did not have to show ID--even in the 80's we did not have to show ID. For international you did need to show your passport, but it was not until the late 90's that travel agents even had to input the passport numbers into the reservation prior to departure.

3. You did have to purchase a ticket for children (as of the 80's, not certain of the 70's), but children's tickets were 75% off the regular fare. (This was specifically for international tickets)


Some info about TWA:
http://web2.umkc.edu/whmckc/COLLECTIONS/INVTRY/KC0453.pdf

Info on TWA deregulation:
http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/the-lowdown-on-airline-food/1

Excellent thought Cubby. It would be less obvious if a couple were travelling with a little girl rather 1 or 2 men travelling with a little girl (even back in the '70's I would think that would have raised an eyebrow or two).

The tickets could also have been purchased for someone else to take Anna out of CA eg; the couple in the car.

If or when the TWA passenger list are available, I think we need to keep a really open mind and look for anyone travelling with a child (girl or boy, as I said before, Anna could have been dressed to look like a boy) and as Cubby pointed out, anyone flying in to SF alone and travelling out with a child. The possibilities seem to be endless.

I have 3 questions that I wonder if anyone can answer.

1) Did TWA have both domestic and international flights in the '70's or only
domestic flights?

2) Did you have to show photo ID to collect domestic flight tickets in the
'70's?

3) Did you have to purchase a ticket for a young child to fly in the '70's or
could they fly for free if they sat on your knee?

 

[OzzieMum]

I can answer some of the questions:

1. Yes, TWA had international flights in the 70's, many flights.

2. Most likely you did not have to show ID--even in the 80's we did not have to show ID. For international you did need to show your passport, but it was not until the late 90's that travel agents even had to input the passport numbers into the reservation prior to departure.

3. You did have to purchase a ticket for children (as of the 80's, not certain of the 70's), but children's tickets were 75% off the regular fare. (This was specifically for international tickets)

Thanks Jules.

I would be more interested in a child travelling on domestic flights and the reason for this is I think the G's were extremely cautious in their planning and if they were going to take Anna overseas, I definitely don't think they would have flown directly from SF, I think they would taken a domestic flight to another state and either flown out from there or handed her over to whoever they were entrusting her to to take her overseas. Was SF airport and international airport in the '70's? or would you have to have flown to LAX or JFK for an international flight?

 

[Julessleuther]

San Francisco was an international airport in 1973, but Los Angeles was the main hub for TWA on the west coast. For international, its main hub was Charles DeGaille in Paris. So if they were flying TWA internationally, they would have connected to a flight out of Los Angeles. EDIT: It appears from the time table below that domestic flights to Europe primarily originated out of JFK, so they would have flown San Francisco -JFK - Rome etc.

I see your point if they met someone in Los Angeles and only needed to buy domestic tickets, but if they were traveling (themselves) internationally, they would most likely have purchased the ticket as a whole ticket from Point A to Point B, and connecting through Los Angeles, JFK (their main east coast hub), St Louis, Chicago, etc to be more cost effective. It would have been considerably more expensive to purchase a San Francisco to Los Angeles, and then a separate Los Angeles to Milan etc. ticket. However, you might be correct, if they were only purchasing one ticket for that $500 (Anna only), they may have purchased the domestic tkt separately from the international portion, and thus why there was higher rate.

I found a times table from 1968, it was the closest I could get to 1973. Most likely the routes did not change much from 68-73, just the times. One thing of interest is that TWA had helicopter service out of San Francisco. (Shown on the brochure)
http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/tw68/tw68-01.jpg

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/tw68/

For Italy, they flew into Milan and Rome. It appears that the flights to Milan and Rome originate from JFK (New York City) from the US.

This times table also lists the allowances for children regarding fares:
Domestic: Children under 2 flew free if sitting on a lap, and 1/2 fare from 2-12 if occupying a seat. For international, children under 2 on lap paid 10% of adult fare, if they had their own seat they paid 1/2 adult fare. It also states that children can only travel alone under certain circumstances. If Anna traveled alone, she would have had to have her own seat.

Thanks Jules.

I would be more interested in a child travelling on domestic flights and the reason for this is I think the G's were extremely cautious in their planning and if they were going to take Anna overseas, I definitely don't think they would have flown directly from SF, I think they would taken a domestic flight to another state and either flown out from there or handed her over to whoever they were entrusting her to to take her overseas. Was SF airport and international airport in the '70's? or would you have to have flown to LAX or JFK for an international flight?

 

[OzzieMum]

San Francisco was an international airport in 1973, but Los Angeles was the main hub for TWA on the west coast. For international, its main hub was Charles DeGaille in Paris. So if they were flying TWA internationally, they would have connected to a flight out of Los Angeles. EDIT: It appears from the time table below that domestic flights to Europe primarily originated out of JFK, so they would have flown San Francisco -JFK - Rome etc.

I see your point if they met someone in Los Angeles and only needed to buy domestic tickets, but if they were traveling (themselves) internationally, they would most likely have purchased the ticket as a whole ticket from Point A to Point B, and connecting through Los Angeles, JFK (their main east coast hub), St Louis, Chicago, etc to be more cost effective. It would have been considerably more expensive to purchase a San Francisco to Los Angeles, and then a separate Los Angeles to Milan etc. ticket. However, you might be correct, if they were only purchasing one ticket for that $500 (Anna only), they may have purchased the domestic tkt separately from the international portion, and thus why there was higher rate.

I found a times table from 1968, it was the closest I could get to 1973. Most likely the routes did not change much from 68-73, just the times. One thing of interest is that TWA had helicopter service out of San Francisco. (Shown on the brochure)
http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/tw68/tw68-01.jpg

http://www.timetableimages.com/ttimages/complete/tw68/

For Italy, they flew into Milan and Rome. It appears that the flights to Milan and Rome originate from JFK (New York City) from the US.

This times table also lists the allowances for children regarding fares:
Domestic: Children under 2 flew free if sitting on a lap, and 1/2 fare from 2-12 if occupying a seat. For international, children under 2 on lap paid 10% of adult fare, if they had their own seat they paid 1/2 adult fare. It also states that children can only travel alone under certain circumstances. If Anna traveled alone, she would have had to have her own seat.

Thank Jules. Excellent info, just what I was looking for.

That $500 could definitely be accounted for by a return domestic ticket for GW and a one way international ticket for Anna, going under the assumption that GW might have met up with the "adoptive" parents in LA or NY.

 

[Skully]

I think that if there are any records from 1973 this is our best bet....

 

[WholeLottaRosie]

Thanks Oz' I am pretty sure TWA flew internationally - see Sherlocks attachments.

2)I do not think id was required for airline tickets in the 70's. I'm going to 'guess' that because I remember my great uncle born in the teens did not ever get a credit card until one was required to reserve a rental car and I recall that happening sometime in the 80's. I'd bet one just had to walk to the counter and give their name and flight information.

don't recall about the age of kids flying free. Any flying I have done with a child is after 2000.

Anyone here fly with their kiddo's in the early 70's?

And if I recall correctly, most state driver's licenses didn't have photos then. You could just pick up tickets. I can remember still doing that in the early to mid 80's.

I think you could ride with a small child on your lap for free. I remember one flight in 1976 where a family had three kids - and three seats, Mom held one, Dad had one and the other child had the last one, and they switched off holding kids and kids getting a turn in the third seat. The flight had empty seats so that wasn't the reason, I just somehow "knew" kids flew free. (Can you tell I was across the aisle, the kids where loud, and I just so recall this flight for that and other reasons. I am not sure when the rule on kids having their own seat and paying went into effect. I think it was still like that in the mid 80's for sure, but, after that not so sure. ETA - Domestic flight.

And the TWA card was for flights only, except for maybe the duty free on planes. I could be wrong, maybe it had some use in the airport, but, I kind of think only on tickets and board the plane. Oh, and possibly if you booked packages (flights/hotel) through TWA. But, I don't believe you could walk in a hotel and use the card just like that, it was pre booking.

 

[SideKick]

I wrote the St. Louis Mercantile Library to confirm about passenger lists as I thought the answer was vague. This is what I received today.

~
For what has been processed there are no passenger lists listed in the finding aid. Each folder does contain multiple items, so there is no way to tell if the folder might contain general passenger information.

There is also no way to tell if there is general passenger, or passenger lists, in the unprocessed part of the collection. I hope that helps. If I come across something I will be sure to let you know.

So, we're hovering, they may or may not contain passenger lists. Hopefully, fingers crossed the unprocessed collection will have something to go on.

Remaining hopeful

 

[SideKick]

I hope this link works if not I'll link the main page.

It shows travel from city to city, it appears San Fran to Rome or Milan Italy. I am wondering if from there Anna (if taken to Italy) was then driven to another city or small town. We'll never know obviously until our big break, but looking on Google Rome for instance, there are so many small towns she could be living in.

I can't recall if Waters ever spoke of Italy in any other terms over the years, medicine, schools etc. other than Greece. I was looking for a town which sounded familiar from a note from Squibbs but haven't seen anything yet.
Makes me wonder if Brody was indeed orginally from Italy. Why come up with Italy? I can definitely see Brody coasting Waters to send Anna where he wanted her to go.

I would like to investigate schools and year books from Italy if on the internet. Just a head's up for those searching.

http://airchive.com/html/timetable-and-route-maps/twa/1975-february-23/7224

http://airchive.com/html/timetable-and-route-maps/twa/1975-february-23/7224# This one has the number sign added... ?

 

[mom2six]

I have a blogger friend whose family has been American for several generations, but discovered that Italy allows dual citizenship if it can be proven that your family emigrated from Italy. Basically, it required him to track down his great-, great-...grandparents birth records in their towns of origin, trace the subsequent marriage and birth records and send the data to the Italian authorities, and then, dual citizenship.

So my question is, is there any Italian heritage at all in Waters' family? Second thought, if Brody was of Italian descent, could a forged birth certificate for Anna have acquired her dual citizenship? If this was accomplished, I believe all the objections about the difficulty of life in Italy without proper documentation fall by the wayside. It would also explain communication with the Italian consulate.

Here's his post which sort of lays it out: http://saintsuperman.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/family-part-ii-1917/

 

[Cubby]

Interesting mom2six.

Would your blogger friend know when this dual citizenship first became available if one could prove lineage from Italy? Could we find out if it precedes when Anna went missing?

This would be a fantastic question for raf, since she is in Italy and is a genealogist.

oh raf, where are you?

Any thoughts on this?

tia!

 

[Annasmom]

I have a blogger friend whose family has been American for several generations, but discovered that Italy allows dual citizenship if it can be proven that your family emigrated from Italy. Basically, it required him to track down his great-, great-...grandparents birth records in their towns of origin, trace the subsequent marriage and birth records and send the data to the Italian authorities, and then, dual citizenship.

So my question is, is there any Italian heritage at all in Waters' family? Second thought, if Brody was of Italian descent, could a forged birth certificate for Anna have acquired her dual citizenship? If this was accomplished, I believe all the objections about the difficulty of life in Italy without proper documentation fall by the wayside. It would also explain communication with the Italian consulate.

Here's his post which sort of lays it out: http://saintsuperman.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/family-part-ii-1917/

I don't think there is any Italian heritage at all in the Waters family. I am not quite sure where to go with this. I have had dual citizenship (Greek and American) ever since 1958.

 

[Cubby]

I don't think there is any Italian heritage at all in the Waters family. I am not quite sure where to go with this. I have had dual citizenship (Greek and American) ever since 1958.

It might be interesting to relook at Brody's odd ramblings about the time he wanted to change Anna's name to Christianna or Benedito ? (IIRC) His choice of names seemed to sound either somewhat Italian or Hispanic. It always struck me as odd as to why he might have chosen something either Italian or Hispanic sounding.....but nothing ever stood out as to why.

Could Eifee be a mispelling of an Italian word of somekind? perhaps an older one? I ask because my mother was taught an old polish nursery rhyme which her grandmother knew and was taught to me (I vaguelly remember it). It was so old, of the large Polish community in the Chicago area I only found one person from Poland who actually remembered it. My great grandmother would have been born sometime about 1890... and that is not far from GB's generation. It is possible.....

 

[Annasmom]

It might be interesting to relook at Brody's odd ramblings about the time he wanted to change Anna's name to Christianna or Benedito ? (IIRC) His choice of names seemed to sound either somewhat Italian or Hispanic. It always struck me as odd as to why he might have chosen something either Italian or Hispanic sounding.....but nothing ever stood out as to why.

Could Eifee be a mispelling of an Italian word of somekind? perhaps an older one? I ask because my mother was taught an old polish nursery rhyme which her grandmother knew and was taught to me (I vaguelly remember it). It was so old, of the large Polish community in the Chicago area I only found one person from Poland who actually remembered it. My great grandmother would have been born sometime about 1890... and that is not far from GB's generation. It is possible.....

Christiana Benedo Waters was a name GB picked out which added up to a "27" in his method of numerology. When I refused to change Anna's name, the compromise was to add the name "Eifee" to her existing name of Anna Christian.

 

[raf]

I have a blogger friend whose family has been American for several generations, but discovered that Italy allows dual citizenship if it can be proven that your family emigrated from Italy. Basically, it required him to track down his great-, great-...grandparents birth records in their towns of origin, trace the subsequent marriage and birth records and send the data to the Italian authorities, and then, dual citizenship.

So my question is, is there any Italian heritage at all in Waters' family? Second thought, if Brody was of Italian descent, could a forged birth certificate for Anna have acquired her dual citizenship? If this was accomplished, I believe all the objections about the difficulty of life in Italy without proper documentation fall by the wayside. It would also explain communication with the Italian consulate.

Here's his post which sort of lays it out: http://saintsuperman.wordpress.com/2008/07/12/family-part-ii-1917/

I am sure that was and is impossible.... in Anna case....
For obtain the italian citizenship from a US citizen of italian origins, needing several original documents ( from USA and from Italy), and abt 1 year ( if all well) currently; in the past, around the 1970s, I believe that the process for italian citizenship was more long... and it are many which crossed controls of documents, and no discrepancies...

in the case of Anna, because she was a minor, it was ( and it is) more hard... and however if GB was the italian George Broda, he was no the father or grandfather of Anna... so it is totally impossible this suggestion....

if GW travelled with Anna in Italy, the only possibility, if it could have counterfeited documents, in some way, so that all seemed regular.... and no problem...

I know not what was the US law around the 1970s for a trip in foreign country of a minor... but by money, in some way, all could be possible...

just today I read abt a case in "Chi l'ha visto?" homepage http://www.chilhavisto.rai.it/dl/clv/Dove_sei/ContentSet-5fcce5d1-069c-4937-b099-afea180d5ba3.html
abt a italian baby girl of 17 days old, abudcted in Roma from a venezuelan woman that raised the baby girl as own daughter in Venezuela counterfeiting the baby identity: birth act, ID card, residence certificate etc...
I believe that needing of a lot of money for that...

Becoming adult, the girl, understanding by physical difference with this woman, that she was no the daughter... and finally found some papers that the woman hidden, so now she search the biological mother in Italy...

That just for to say, that for a abducter, all is possible, because already no respect the laws, and it know all bad ways for to make a abduction.... and where to carry the baby, and as to make in future, because wishing the abduction and planning all...

So also in Anna case, it is possible that GW travelled with Anna, but no legally, but counterfeiting, corrupting, lying...

no by legal way, but by illegal way
all the best,
raf

 

[Cubby]

I am sure that was and is impossible.... in Anna case....
For obtain the italian citizenship from a US citizen of italian origins, needing several original documents ( from USA and from Italy), and abt 1 year ( if all well) currently; in the past, around the 1970s, I believe that the process for italian citizenship was more long... and it are many which crossed controls of documents, and no discrepancies...

in the case of Anna, because she was a minor, it was ( and it is) more hard... and however if GB was the italian George Broda, he was no the father or grandfather of Anna... so it is totally impossible this suggestion....

if GW travelled with Anna in Italy, the only possibility, if it could have counterfeited documents, in some way, so that all seemed regular.... and no problem...

no by legal way, but by illegal way
all the best,
raf

respectfully snipped. BBM. I agree raf, it is probably unlikely that GB could have forged documents since he changed his name. Especially since we could find no evidence of a GB and then even the same birthday and additional info leading us to believe a strong possibility of an identity GB used prior to a name change to GB.

I hope that makes sense. It's the middle of the aftenoon and I need more coffee!

Thank you for the additional info on the article raf! I appreciate very much when you share those stories with us. I hope that girl is able to find her birth mom. Please keep us posted if you happen to hear she did!

 

[mom2six]

Interesting mom2six.

Would your blogger friend know when this dual citizenship first became available if one could prove lineage from Italy? Could we find out if it precedes when Anna went missing?

I am hesitant to write any further questions to my friend at this time because he is just moving in and starting seminary this week, which I imagine is more than a little overwhelming, so let's see if we can answer this ourselves first. From his first post on the subject, this is the explanation for how it is possible:

"By the United States’ principle of jus soli (citizenship by location of birth) and Italy’s principle of jus sanguinus (citizenship by descent of blood), Michael [his relative] was born with citizenship in both countries."

From the sound of this, it is how citizenship has always been determined in Italy. Since his relatives who immigrated were here from 1917 up to the present, I deduce that this reckoning of citizenship had to be in effect at least that long.

http://www.italiandualcitizenship.com/ - this is interesting.

The George Broda connection Raf was researching intrigues me. Did I read somewhere in that thread that US citizenship could be acquired through service in the US military at that time? I will have to search those posts and read more on it, but probably won't have time until tomorrow, though. Sorry if I'm raising more questions than answers.

 

[mom2six]

So also in Anna case, it is possible that GW travelled with Anna, but no legally, but counterfeiting, corrupting, lying...

no by legal way, but by illegal way
all the best,
raf

Thanks for your input. It's a wild idea, I agree, but facts are so hard to add up in this case. I agree, if any of this is relevant it would definitely be illegal. One additional thought is that GW would have access to the necessary paperwork to easily have a false birth certificate issued. Back in the 1970s, I do not believe this would be at all difficult.

For example, in the state in which I live, anybody could file a birth certificate up until a few years ago. Let's see, my unassisted home born baby is now 6, and it was only during my pregnancy with him that they began certifying midwives in the state to file birth certificates. Before that, anyone could get the form, and midwives or people claiming to be midwives could get stacks of bc forms with no questions asked. No other proof of pregnancy or birth was even required until this time. Non-nurse midwives have only been licensed in my state for 3 years, so these were unregulated midwives with access to numerous forms up until 2004.

 

[Cubby]

I am hesitant to write any further questions to my friend at this time because he is just moving in and starting seminary this week, which I imagine is more than a little overwhelming, so let's see if we can answer this ourselves first. From his first post on the subject, this is the explanation for how it is possible:

"By the United States’ principle of jus soli (citizenship by location of birth) and Italy’s principle of jus sanguinus (citizenship by descent of blood), Michael [his relative] was born with citizenship in both countries."

From the sound of this, it is how citizenship has always been determined in Italy. Since his relatives who immigrated were here from 1917 up to the present, I deduce that this reckoning of citizenship had to be in effect at least that long.

http://www.italiandualcitizenship.com/ - this is interesting.

The George Broda connection Raf was researching intrigues me. Did I read somewhere in that thread that US citizenship could be acquired through service in the US military at that time? I will have to search those posts and read more on it, but probably won't have time until tomorrow, though. Sorry if I'm raising more questions than answers.

By all means don't bother your friend while he is busy.
BBM. Acquiring US citizenship by serving in the US military is not ringing a bell for me. I think I recall reading non US citizens have served in the US military, but I can't recall where or why. Someone more familiar with military will have to answer. I don't have any military in my family, outside of the reserves....

hth

 

[Cubby]

Thanks for your input. It's a wild idea, I agree, but facts are so hard to add up in this case. I agree, if any of this is relevant it would definitely be illegal. One additional thought is that GW would have access to the necessary paperwork to easily have a false birth certificate issued. Back in the 1970s, I do not believe this would be at all difficult.

For example, in the state in which I live, anybody could file a birth certificate up until a few years ago. Let's see, my unassisted home born baby is now 6, and it was only during my pregnancy with him that they began certifying midwives in the state to file birth certificates. Before that, anyone could get the form, and midwives or people claiming to be midwives could get stacks of bc forms with no questions asked. No other proof of pregnancy or birth was even required until this time. Non-nurse midwives have only been licensed in my state for 3 years, so these were unregulated midwives with access to numerous forms up until 2004.

This is excellent information to know, but I don't know where we would go with narrowing down a possible Anna. Outside of looking at adoptees with more than one possible link via name, dob, etc. to what we know of GB... IF they would have been able to create a ficticous id for Anna - technically they could have picked any date or any info.....

tia