NC - Zahra Clare Baker, 10, Hickory, 9 Oct 2010 - #8

[strawberry]

I live near Hickory now and have most of my life. I went to High School at Fred T Ford. Alcohol has been available in Hickory (and most of the rest of the state) for YEARS. And I have never seen pot being smoked "right out in the open".

I was going to say, there are Brew Throughs and bars in the Outer Banks..and the Food Lion. I love that you can buy beer in the grocery store unlike here in PA.

 

[darnudes]

From what I understand, she did move to Australia for a short time. They were married there and that last social networking site that I posted had her as living in Giru where Adam and Zahra lived. So did she move into his parent's home for a while when she went to Oz? And was she happy about whatever arrangement was going on? I cannot imagine that a woman, who seems to be rather controlling, would enjoy living in her new husband's parent's home. She would not have had any control there.

So maybe the plan initially was for her to move there and she convinced him that she was unhappy and wanted to move back to the states and he made the decision to come back with her?

MOO

Very good points Kamille, thanks.
I believe they were living with the grandparents in Giru and unsubstantiated reports have claimed it was not that rosie.
Elesa was in Australia for about 6 months and no offense to the residents of Giru, but it takes a certain kind of person to enjoy small town country life in Australia. I can very easily picture her not being very happy where they were situated in Oz. I know I could never live there.

 

[eleni777]

I love WS I learn so much :dance: I always assumed that blood was one of the things a cadaver dog would hit on. So there has to be some sort of tissue? and how would it differenciate between a dead body and say just a severed finger? Hope this isnt a stupid question, just trying to wrap my mind around it all. TIA

From the way I understand cadaver dogs and decomp...from them moment of death the body begins to breakdown chemically...so the smell of decomp for a cadaver dog is distinct because of the chemical breaking down of the body. How that differentiated to a severed finger decomposing, I'm not sure.

if this isnt correct someone please correct me...

 

[kalekona]

From the way I understand cadaver dogs and decomp...from them moment of death the body begins to breakdown chemically...so the smell of decomp for a cadaver dog is distinct because of the chemical breaking down of the body.

if this isnt correct someone please correct me...

that is my understanding as well- and I have heard experts say that the doge can detect that decomp within minutes.

I think we also have to factor in the training of THESE dogs. They may not have the above excellent training that the dogs we have seen in other cases have had.

 

[bellyup]

I love WS I learn so much :dance: I always assumed that blood was one of the things a cadaver dog would hit on. So there has to be some sort of tissue? and how would it differenciate between a dead body and say just a severed finger? Hope this isnt a stupid question, just trying to wrap my mind around it all. TIA

There is A LOT that goes into the training of these dogs and some are VERY finely tuned while others are general "scent" trained dogs.

Ie; Dog #1 Might be able to detect only fresh blood.
Dog #2 Might be able to detect fresh and old blood.
Dog #3 Might only be able to smell a live person (trapped or otherwise).
Dog #4 Might only be able to scent on a dead body.

And on and on. Then you have "super dogs" . There are dogs who can search for just about anything and can be taught different ways to signal to indicate they are scenting something specific (ie; that they smell blood versus a live person... etc.)

To answer your specific question one dog might be trained specifically to scent on decomposing flesh. This dog would likely alert on ANY decomposing flesh (ie; a body, a body part, skin tissue, a finger, etc.) While another dog would only be trained to alert on the scent of gasses (ie; those released by an intact decomposing body).

So it REALLY depends on what the dogs are trained for and in what ways they were trained.

 

[Emeralgem]

No man or woman is a good parent IF they have knowledge of their spouse abusing their child and allow it..
My mother used to say.. "Any man ever hurt one of my kids or my plants, they are dead"...

I did have a step father for about three years...He was an ok kind of a guy.. Nothing really special, but he wasn't mean or abusive to my sister or myself...

 

[Dear Prudence]

Have the police come out and stated that the dogs hit on certain spots or has this information ONLY come from the reporters.

Unfortunately, my faith in reliable journalism is quite low.

http://www.wcnc.com/news/Police-return-to-Burke-County-search-site-104880109.html

"McDevitt said Tuesday night there have been "many hits" but none that he would call conclusive."

McDevitt is the Burke County Sheriff. His statement left many of us not understanding what he meant. So yes, LE has stated the dogs had hits but....:waitasec:....not sure if that means anything.

 

[impatientredhead]

KB, Adam's mom, has stated he adored her and would never hurt her. As well that it was a difficult time dealing with the cancer, but that AB and Zhara were "close" (or something to that effect) .
EB's family has more or less taken AB's side in the whole matter and while they are openly bashing EB (their family member) I haven't seen them say anything bad about AB.
Several of EB's family have made claims that EB was jealous of AB's involvement with Zhara.

Gotcha, I admit I am cynical about these types of situations. My mother was horribly abusive and identifiable to the outside world as out of control. Her husband was seen as the "saintly one that took so much abuse as she dominated the household". He just put a better face on to the world and knew every bit of what was happening and did nothing to prevent it.

Someone's mom saying they were a loving parent and wouldn't hurt their grandchild, well sometimes it is true, and on the other hand we have seen a ton of mothers of killers say their boy would never do such a thing.

I appreciate that you are willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I know that I am quick to shut the door on the possibility, but I still think he is guilty as sin in this case.

 

[big4dropout]

IMO I think so, but im guessing marijuana due to his weight. My daughter lived in Hickory years ago and people did it right in the open, I guess because its a dry state, no alcohol can be purchased there.

She may have lived in Caldwell County or another dry county nearby (there are still several, I think). In dry counties, beer and wine aren't sold in stores. Throughout the state, hard liquor can only be purchased at state-run ABC stores. Caldwell County's dry status got lifted in 2004. I've known some country folk to light up a blunt on the porch, but definitely not in the city limits.

 

[nobodyspecial]

This is my understanding:

If the limb was decomposing and had developed a decomposing scent (which from the studies we found in the Caylee case that is detectable by a cadaver dog in approximately a ninety minute window) then a cadaver dog should find that scent.

But if the limb was ripped from a live human and then finely shredded and dispersed you have a different type of breakdown more in keeping with the blood that would be in your kitchen sink if you cut yourself. It does not have the rest of the cellular structure to break down with.

I think the difference is that the tissue would have been live when it went through versus being the limb of a dead person. Does that make sense?

Makes perfect sense. I thought I understand it as such, but then I do wonder if there was any chance that a larger portion of flesh (as from a limb) survived shredding and was dropped somewhere into the machine's working parts where it remained unseen, and able to decay. If so, what size piece would be big enough to still form cadaverine? I can't believe I'm sitting here typing this so coldly.

One other thing I just thought of....if blood were visible anywhere on the chipper, blood analysts would be able to determine if that blood came from a live (or very recently deceased) source based on blood spray, wouldn't they? Because a non live source would have coagulation of the blood which would be a much..um...thicker spray. Have they even said officially if any blood has been found?

Or do I need that nap now...?

 

[impatientredhead]

http://www.wcnc.com/news/Police-return-to-Burke-County-search-site-104880109.html

"McDevitt said Tuesday night there have been "many hits" but none that he would call conclusive."

McDevitt is the Burke County Sheriff. His statement left many of us not understanding what he meant. So yes, LE has stated the dogs had hits but....:waitasec:....not sure if that means anything.

dogs have hit
nothing collected (or back from the lab) that conclusively says it is Zahra

dogs hit on Casey's trunk
nothing conclusively said it was Caylee for months into the investigation
still doesn't prove it conclusively if you ask JB

 

[Wondergirl]

The perpetrator(s) of this alleged heinous act upon a little girl, can still do the right thing and bring Zahra home.

Where is Zahra?

 

[~Lisa~]

HLN covering it now

 

[waltzingmatilda]

A question for our Hickory locals.

Was it windy in Hickory the night/morning the fire was reported? Just thinking the fire may have been accidentally sparked by a cigarette. Do the Bakers smoke? anybody? I assume there's a good chance SM smokes some type of substance by her social networking posts.

Also, how has the weather been in Hickory since Zahra was reported missing? Has there been any rain to potentially wash away evidence?

Sorry if these questions have already been asked. Been having computer problems and I am way, way, way, way behind in catching up on the threads.

TIA

wm

 

[pinkpuddytat]

IMO I think so, but im guessing marijuana due to his weight. My daughter lived in Hickory years ago and people did it right in the open, I guess because its a dry state, no alcohol can be purchased there.

Huh? It's definitely not a dry state. Link to North Carolina Alcoholic Beverage Control Commission's store locator http://www.ncabc.com/stores/ There are 5 stores right in Hickory. Alcohol is also served in restaurants and bars.

 

[impatientredhead]

Makes perfect sense. I thought I understand it as such, but then I do wonder if there was any chance that a larger portion of flesh (as from a limb) survived shredding and was dropped somewhere into the machine's working parts where it remained unseen, and able to decay. If so, what size piece would be big enough to still form cadaverine? I can't believe I'm sitting here typing this so coldly.

One other thing I just thought of....if blood were visible anywhere on the chipper, blood analysts would be able to determine if that blood came from a live (or very recently deceased) source based on blood spray, wouldn't they? Because a non live source would have coagulation of the blood which would be a much..um...thicker spray. Have they even said officially if any blood has been found?

Or do I need that nap now...?

I think it is possible but extremely slim.
And the owner of the business is out there allowing the search, I cannot imagine they would not have mentioned that this equipment was involved in a major accident, nor would explain the hits in the current mulch piles.

 

[Savmom]

An officer who asked for anonymity because he's not authorized to discuss the case confirmed the site was among several where officers are searching for the girl. The officer said a different dog got a hit at the scene a day earlier, but nothing was found then.

That explains some of the discrepancies between the media reports and what the actual sheriff/chief (can't recall his name/title) has been stating.

Read more here

 

[SherlockHomey]

I dabbled in training my dog for cadaver search and rescue after 9/11. From what I gathered in that time, it depends on the particular dog and their skills. The training is very specific in what they search for.

The dogs are also trained in multiple disaster scenarios such as fire, tornado, water, hurricane, etc so depending upon the situation, they choose the dog for the job. If they are searching for human remains, the dogs are most likely trained with real cadavers. Sorry if that is TMI.

 

[Mandy113]

I'm just so angry and sickened thinking about what Zahra has had to endure in young life.

If what we've read and have seen reported is correct, it's easy believe EB must have been the dominant one perpetuating the abuse. I can NOT give AB a free pass no matter if he was abused, intimidated, not too smart, addicted, love-sick, whatever. Somehow he apparently had custody of his daughter. He was clearly aware of her health conditions. He had primary responsibility for her. He brought this woman into Zahra's life. He brought Zahra to America.

The only one I'm concerned with here is Zahra. I pray by some miracle she may be found safe and be given a real chance at the happy life she deserves.

AB & EB can spend eternity together burning in he-- for all I care.

JMO

(This is not directed to anyone else's posts. I respect all opinions)

 

[eleni777]

Gotcha, I admit I am cynical about these types of situations. My mother was horribly abusive and identifiable to the outside world as out of control. Her husband was seen as the "saintly one that took so much abuse as she dominated the household". He just put a better face on to the world and knew every bit of what was happening and did nothing to prevent it.

Someone's mom saying they were a loving parent and wouldn't hurt their grandchild, well sometimes it is true, and on the other hand we have seen a ton of mothers of killers say their boy would never do such a thing.

I appreciate that you are willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I know that I am quick to shut the door on the possibility, but I still think he is guilty as sin in this case.

ITA! I will believe this when I hear it from someone other than his MOTHER... what loving father turns a blind eye to his daughter getting abused. and if they had such a great relationship YOU KNOW Zahra would have told him that EB was beating the out of her.

None of EB family have said anything about AB good or bad.

We do have a picture of EB with a black eye...I wonder who gave that to her...Zahra...NOT...

I'm thinking AB knew how to hide his sinister side to the outside world. he may of been a raging maniac behind closed doors and was the catalyst that pushed the already metally unstable and drug addicted EB over the edge. and in her mind, the only retaliation she had was to attack Zahra and ultimately committ the unthinkable.. :furious: