GUILTY IL - Antinette 'Toni' Keller, 18, DeKalb, NIU Student, 14 October 2010

[Vresia]

Woe-

I needed to get an idea of the proximity of locations and Antinette's possible route too.

Newspapers reported that the remains were found in the park behind the Elks Club. A cross memorial has been put up in the area ( http://bit.ly/9lhHqK ).

I googled the address for the Elks Club (209 S Annie Glidden Rd, DeKalb, IL 60115) and Antinette's dorm, Neptune North, (750 Lucinda Ave., DeKalb, IL 60115) and got this map: http://bit.ly/d87cUg

 

[Cubby]

This from Wikipedia.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation

A cremator is an industrial furnace capable of generating temperatures of 870–980 °C (1,598–1,796 °F) to ensure disintegration of the corpse.

(Snipped)

The time required for cremation thus varies from body to body, and in modern furnaces may be as fast as one hour per 45 kilograms (99 lb) of body weight.

________________________

My thoughts on this is the killer assaulted Antinette during the day, killed her and hid her body in the brush returning later that evening in the cover of darkness to dispose of her when there would be no one or less people in the park.

A good bon fire will burn around 1500+ degrees F. From the pictures on fb Antinette was not a very large girl. So I would think if the perp dismembered the body it would take less then a few hours to be burn the body to just ash and bones according to what is said on Wikipedia.

If there are homeless camps near by in the same park someone with a fire would not stand out that much IMO. Does anyone know how close the remains were found to the fireplace area that was mentioned earlier in this thread or if there are camping sites in this park that would have fire pits or rings?

Joe, what would you define as a 'good bon fire'? What size of a bon fire would amount to a 1500 degree temp?

and how would one get a fire to 1500 degrees without it being noticable?

I can image a huge college campus style bonfire for homecoming which is say 20ft by 20 ft by??? that would likely consume human remains quickly, but not a fire at prairie park that close to subdivisions without someone noticing.

I think the weekend Toni went missing was homecoming weekend... so maybe a bonfire might not have been so noticable. It was homecoming weekend....

Northern Illinois Homecoming Set for October 16, 2010
http://www.niuhuskies.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/040110aaa.html

Perhaps that would explain why no one thought anything was out of the ordinary? Especially with any unusual smells....

I dunno... I'm trying to fathom how remains could be reduced to bones in such a relatively small park without anyone noticing anything unusual... and I can only account to people dismissing any odd smells to homecoming weekend parties?

In that case the perp had to have prepared for this days in advance knowing homecoming might cover up the smell?

Does NIU still do huge bon fires for homecoming? Even if they cancelled them, people would become used to various bon fire parties being celebrated in the area that weekend.

hmmm.....

 

[Laddsy]

What if the bones were from another victim and he laid them on a small fire to throw the LE off. He might still have her locked up somewhere. He may also have a custom built furnace for disposing of his victims after he is finished with them.

 

[krista]

Remember when LE said that the dogs traced Toni's scent to the roadway and then lost it?

I really question if Toni was taken somewhere else, burned there, and her bones and personal affects were placed in the park. It would be a tight timeline, but certainly possible and WAY more 'safe' for the killer than murdering and burning a person IN the park. What if he grabbed her and placed her in his car.
Honestly, knowing how people were searching for Toni on the 15th and 16th, I can't imagine that the smell wouldn't still linger had she been burned on-site. Further, I can't imagine all of her personal items not being found with so many people looking for her. Finally, I can't imagine why the dogs wouldn't pick up her scent....especially after tracing it so well up to that point.

Anyway, another issue that's bothering me is LE's insistance that this was an 'isolated incident'. We keep hearing that as an excuse for why NIU students and community members shouldn't be worried and in fear for their lives. I question how LE would know that unless they believe this was done by someone who knows Toni.
We haven't done much brainstorming.....but think about it. Her body was burned beyond recognition.....her remains thrown into a park fire pit, her beloved art materials tossed out like garbage. There's a STRONG possibility that whoever did this was VERY VERY angry/hurt by Toni. I'd like to know the exboyfriend's alibi. IMHO.

 

[TallCoolOne]

What if after all of this the bones aren't Toni's? :waitasec:
Everything seems backwards to me.

I studied google and other maps for the longest time and I still can't picture the route she walked, etc. I don't think I ever left campus on foot unless to go home to my apartment that was a few blocks from campus (right off of Annie Glidden Rd). Not that any of that matters but I don't think heading out on your own toward town was a good idea even back then.

I sure hope they are able to figure out what happened to this young woman who had her whole life ahead of her. What is wrong with these sick people who don't value life? I'll never understand the misery people are willing and able to cause others. For what? That's what makes them happy? Sick, just sick. When we know of a person like this, we should take them out back and shoot 'um. I'm sorry but I'm so tired of hearing about all of these terrible things happening to children and women and boys too. You might say, well then you are just like them. I say I'm not. Loose the scum bags once and for all. How many times do we hear over and over that another person is harmed by someone released from prison. And the good guys are just helpless in this world of Russian roulette? My heart breaks for this family and all the others who have had to endure their lives being changed by evil people who obviously live in darkness. Isn't there somewhere we can drop these people and let them kill each other? :furious::furious:

Many students just go behind the buildings at Junction Station/Shopping Center and go down the embankment, up the other side of the embankment, over the RR Tracks and backdown the embankment to get to the park. They don't use the official entry.

Also, not certain how long it's been since you've been a student there, but you have to realize how much that area has grown, including the college. Where the Junction Station is, is not very far from the dorms at all, mere blocks and there is usually a lot of foot traffic in the area when school is in session. It isn't really like going uptown either.

 

[watcher9]

Looking at the maps, the park looks large, spread out and very wooded.
I may have missed it, but has the location in the park of the remains been identified? The cross was placed near one of the entrances, but was that because the public does not have access inside the park at this time?
I'm surprised that there has not been any aerial photos of the scene by the media?
In what section of the park are the homeless camping? The fire pits?
Are there any factories around the park that could emit a strong odor?
The idea of someone else's bones being placed there is intriguing.

 

[ci2i]

Looking at the maps, the park looks large, spread out and very wooded.
I may have missed it, but has the location in the park of the remains been identified? The cross was placed near one of the entrances, but was that because the public does not have access inside the park at this time?
I'm surprised that there has not been any aerial photos of the scene by the media?
In what section of the park are the homeless camping? The fire pits?
Are there any factories around the park that could emit a strong odor?
The idea of someone else's bones being placed there is intriguing.

BBM: That is an interesting scenario. In this case, I would look at people who may have access to local crematoriums and would be able to get their hands on just enough cremains to be identified as human, but not necessarily who they may belong to.

 

[TallCoolOne]

Looking at the maps, the park looks large, spread out and very wooded.
I may have missed it, but has the location in the park of the remains been identified? The cross was placed near one of the entrances, but was that because the public does not have access inside the park at this time?
I'm surprised that there has not been any aerial photos of the scene by the media?
In what section of the park are the homeless camping? The fire pits?
Are there any factories around the park that could emit a strong odor?
The idea of someone else's bones being placed there is intriguing.

It is wooded in some areas with thick undergrowth, but one needs to keep in mind it IS called Prarie Park for a reason. Much of the areas are pretty open. There is a frisbee golf course in there as well. From what I understand the area of interest is actually about 200 yards or so from where Toni was last spotted when in Junction Station/Shopping Center. Pretty much south and a little to the east from where she was last seen not far from the path.

Factories in the area do not emit any strong odors, other than the Tire Distribution Center which is further to the south east, and that just smells faintly like rubber or perhaps even a little like hot tar and it's far enough from this area that I highly doubt it carries over there.

 

[SuziQ]

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my brain around burnt remains reduced to the point you couldn't tell they were human without examination from two labs. Even if the remains were reduced to bones you'd still have a skull, etc. KWIM? Add in short timespan and crowded park. Puzzling.

 

[Joe Friday]

Joe, what would you define as a 'good bon fire'? What size of a bon fire would amount to a 1500 degree temp?

and how would one get a fire to 1500 degrees without it being noticable?

I can image a huge college campus style bonfire for homecoming which is say 20ft by 20 ft by??? that would likely consume human remains quickly, but not a fire at prairie park that close to subdivisions without someone noticing.

SBM

Perhaps I should have said campfire. I guess when one think of a bon fire they think of a fire that is very large like the Texas A&M bon fires where students stacked logs up to 60 feet high. Ya, I think if someone built a bon fire like that in a park, it might attract a little attention. Even a smaller version would too.

I would describe a good campfire as a fire with a decent bed of embers or coals built with good size tree branches or logs preferably dead and dry. Until recently it has been very dry across the midwest. Finding dead dry tree branches in a wooded area should not have been that difficult. I don't think you would be very successful reducing a human body to ash and bones using a fire built from leaves and twigs.

If you placed a pound of hamburger directly in a fire on a good hot bed of embers it would not take very long before the hamburger was reduced to nothing but ash. Heck I have a hard enough time not burning burgers on my gas grill which burns at 400-650 degrees F. http://www.grillmates.com/grill_mastergrill_gas.html Once the liquid is boiled out of the tissue of the hamburger, the hamburger would become fuel for the fire itself.


In the following paper there is a lot of information on burned bones as well as extraction of DNA from bones that have been burned. In the paper they explain that burning of the bones might preserve the DNA because the organic substances that would otherwise provide food for destructive bacteria are unavailable, something I found very interesting.

http://www.anth.ucsb.edu/faculty/walker/publications/PLW ND Cremation Color.pdf

A well fed, well ventilated fire can rapidly reduce a body to calcined ashes, while draft and lack of fuel can result in a partially burned body with some areas heavily altered and others virtually unaffected.

Cubby, I'm not sure which other case you were thinking about when you said you could only think of one other case in which the body was burned so badly they could not identify it as a human. (Paraphrased) But the ongoing case of two year old Cecilia Denise Harris is one case that I can. LE has not officially said that Cecilia's mother burned her daughter in the backyard in one of those small metal fire pits that most people set up in there driveway and sit around enjoying a fire, but that is the conclusion I have come to with the evidence that was taken in the search of the home which included a metal fire pit and two bottles of charcoal lighter fluid. It has been over five (5) months now and they still have not positively identified the remains as that of Cecilia. The trial has been delayed twice now and is now scheduled now to start January. The point is if Cecilia could be burned in a small metal fire pit to the point it took a couple of days to determine the remains that were found were human. It does not take much of a fire to destroy a human body to the point of ash and bones.

IA IA - Cecilia Denise Harris, 20 months, Dubuque, June 2010 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

 

[eyes4crime]

DNA is found in the bone marrow of bones. Crematories can reduce bone to ash and will destroy the structure of DNA, but, in this case, LE have said they have skeletal remains...leading me to believe that there may be a smidget of intact DNA somewhere. moo

If identification can't be made by DNA how about previous breaks in the bone, such as in a broken foot or arm, breaks in the bone can be identified and linked to a person's history/past x-rays. My gosh, I hope they bring in a forensic anthropologist for this case. moo mho

What about the teeth? The pulp of the teeth have DNA protected by enamel.

*snip*
many don't know but the inside of each tooth contains a cavity known as the pulp chamber. It is inside of this and the roots of the teeth that nerve fibers and blood vessels exist. A biopsy of this tissue can also be very helpful for DNA matching and has proven so on many occasions especially when a further match was required. Even through many types of trauma, the tooth can protect it's pulp, thus preserving it to a certain degree for some time.
*snip*
http://www.ecds.on.ca/ask_dentist/forensic_dental.html

Now I'm wondering if Toni's teeth were found? Don't think a cremation destroys teeth, they have to be gound or pulverized for destruction. moo mho

 

[rodie]

Krista, I agree with the thought process that IF the remains are Toni's then they were more likely returned to the sight rather than disposed of there originally. She left a trail to nowhere on the highway and is found burned beyond recognition in the middle of a busy park? I'm stuck on the thought that the remains aren't even Toni and the personal belongings were left there to throw investigators off.

 

[krista]

Krista, I agree with the thought process that IF the remains are Toni's then they were more likely returned to the sight rather than disposed of there originally. She left a trail to nowhere on the highway and is found burned beyond recognition in the middle of a busy park? I'm stuck on the thought that the remains aren't even Toni and the personal belongings were left there to throw investigators off.

As much as I would absolutely LOVE for Toni to be alive somewhere.....the thought of the bolded above makes me absolutely sick to my stomach. I pray for verification that these are her bones/remains......as anyone sick enough to kidnap her and throw investigators off with ANOTHER PERSON'S remains would be a very evil, warped person (even moreso than they already are, if possible)....and I just can't imagine that the outcome would be any different for Toni in the end.
It's VERY odd to me that LE would announce that these are Toni's remains when they haven't confirmed (via DNA) that the bones actually belong to Toni.

 

[eyes4crime]

Remember when LE said that the dogs traced Toni's scent to the roadway and then lost it?

I really question if Toni was taken somewhere else, burned there, and her bones and personal affects were placed in the park. It would be a tight timeline, but certainly possible and WAY more 'safe' for the killer than murdering and burning a person IN the park. What if he grabbed her and placed her in his car.
Honestly, knowing how people were searching for Toni on the 15th and 16th, I can't imagine that the smell wouldn't still linger had she been burned on-site. Further, I can't imagine all of her personal items not being found with so many people looking for her. Finally, I can't imagine why the dogs wouldn't pick up her scent....especially after tracing it so well up to that point.

Anyway, another issue that's bothering me is LE's insistance that this was an 'isolated incident'. We keep hearing that as an excuse for why NIU students and community members shouldn't be worried and in fear for their lives. I question how LE would know that unless they believe this was done by someone who knows Toni.
We haven't done much brainstorming.....but think about it. Her body was burned beyond recognition.....her remains thrown into a park fire pit, her beloved art materials tossed out like garbage. There's a STRONG possibility that whoever did this was VERY VERY angry/hurt by Toni. I'd like to know the exboyfriend's alibi. IMHO.

BBM (bolded by me)

I agree, it seems as if this murder was very personal. Hard to digest the idea that a homeless man would build a fire to cook dinner and use it to burn a body. When one throws personal items around a body that can't be identified - what's the message? Is this taunting/mocking the police, her family, university, Toni, or all? Or is the predator saying: Don't miss my work, here it is! moo

Wonder if this predator has a grudge against the University, LE, Toni or her family? Sort of like a game of 'catch me if you can' or how stupid are you that you can't identify the body? moo

Toni's body was found on Thursday just prior to Homecoming weekend. Could it be a past alumni? moo

Way back in one of the first threads I read that Toni volunteered for Habitat this past summer in Indiana, helped to build a home for the homeless. Wonder if there were any unusual interactions during the building or at the end?moo

 

[Vresia]

The remains were recovered 10/16 but not confirmed to be human until 10/23. There were signs that the area involved was cordoned off before the 10/23 press conference. I wonder if the area now known to be important was left unsecured for possibly a week (10/14-10/21) before investigators recognized its significance. I hope it wasn't.

 

[Dipcheese]

For those of you thinking that this may have happened outside Prairie Park...

http://ssm.daily-chronicle.com/dail...6Keller4/1026-keller-news-conference-part-iv/

Go to 3:50 into it and he says the focus is entirely within Prairie Park and NOT outside it.

Go to http://www.daily-chronicle.com/ and click the 'Multimedia' tab for all parts of the press conference. He says it all in Part I. I did find it interesting in watching the videos that he referred to the perpetrator in singular mode and not once plural or neutral.

 

[Dipcheese]

I read this article earlier today. The writer says you can enter Prairie Park at Clifford (which looks opposite from where Toni was last seen). There must be an entrance on the other side too. There is a picture of the footbridge in the link (someone else posted it earlier too).

http://www.traillink.com/trail/dekalb-nature-trail.aspx

Another person describing the area ~ http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=423724

There are many "entrances" to Prairie Park. The path can be accessed all along Clifford, but also off Taylor to the south and Annie Glidden from the west. However, many people "hop" the tracks to get to it and Junction Shopping Center. It can feel very isolated and dark when the path weaves into the trees running along the train tracks. Remember, this was the 14th, when the trees and bushes still had leaves from the unseasonably mild weather. Also, the tracks are a steep rise that shelters the north border from any housing or stores. There are about a dozen or so houses on the southwest corner where the Park is officially taped off and very close to the Junction Center that has a few eateries that could pump out some peculiar smelling exhausts and enough trees and brush to mask a fire.

 

[Dipcheese]

The remains were recovered 10/16 but not confirmed to be human until 10/23. There were signs that the area involved was cordoned off before the 10/23 press conference. I wonder if the area now known to be important was left unsecured for possibly a week (10/14-10/21) before investigators recognized its significance. I hope it wasn't.

They had eyes on it. It's a common practice. See who shows up, or more importantly ...returns to the scene.

 

[twinkiesmom]

The remains were recovered 10/16 but not confirmed to be human until 10/23. There were signs that the area involved was cordoned off before the 10/23 press conference. I wonder if the area now known to be important was left unsecured for possibly a week (10/14-10/21) before investigators recognized its significance. I hope it wasn't.

I think when the university notified the students it was too dangerous to search, it was because they had already identified it as a crime scene. That was really early on....I don't think the public is getting the facts in this case which could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on how things shake out in the end.

 

[watcher9]

I'm still having a hard time wrapping my brain around burnt remains reduced to the point you couldn't tell they were human without examination from two labs. Even if the remains were reduced to bones you'd still have a skull, etc. KWIM? Add in short timespan and crowded park. Puzzling.

I haven't heard yet if they actually found a skull. Maybe the perp kept it.

If they only found bits and pieces of bones and no skull, that could be why they were unable to identify it as human at the start.

I guess it's hard for me to picture this because I think of Little Caylee and how her bones were so scattered and small but they could identify them.

Adult bones are so much bigger and should be easy to identify. Do they mean that the bones have been incinerated so much they have turned to dust?