The Ramseys' own words

[rashomon]

I talked to him on the phone. His timeline can be found on pages 286, 287 and 288 of his book.

We don't need to be a medical expert to see from the autopsy photos that there was bruising on the neck below the final position of the garotte. This suggests an initial strangulation preceding the placement or repositioning of the cord. The initial strangulation could have caused unconsciousness only, not death. The head blow could have followed leaving the evidence of bleeding in the skull. The final position of the garotte may or may not have had anything to do with causing death.

My point was the hemorrhaging of the brain, and that's where I'd like o get expert medical opinion (how strongly can subdural or arachnoid bleeding be at all, etc.)
JB's skull was cracked in two parts but not caved in - where could she have gotten that kind of injury from?

Do you mean by 'bruising' the big red spot on the front of JB's neck?
Or the circumferential bruising around her neck?

 

[UKGuy]

I talked to him on the phone. His timeline can be found on pages 286, 287 and 288 of his book.

We don't need to be a medical expert to see from the autopsy photos that there was bruising on the neck below the final position of the garotte. This suggests an initial strangulation preceding the placement or repositioning of the cord. The initial strangulation could have caused unconsciousness only, not death. The head blow could have followed leaving the evidence of bleeding in the skull. The final position of the garotte may or may not have had anything to do with causing death.

Paradox,

The garotte is likely staging. What you suggest regarding her initial strangulation is what I assume may have led to her death.

I think Dr Meyer used the term associated and say not coterminous, or simultaneous, because even although the asphyxiation may follow the head trauma, or the head trauma that of the asphyxiation, there is no way to demonstrate the two events are not coterminous, which they may actually be?

e.g. if JonBenet was asphyxiated using her own top whilst sitting on a chair or bench, then as she looses consciousness the perpetrator lets go of the top, and JonBenet falls backwards hitting her head on some furniture behind her.

Alternatively similar to above except JonBenet is asphyxiated, she looses consciousness in the chair, and her perpetrator on moving the body causes the head to hit some object.

I suspect Dr Meyer might plumb for the coterminous interpretation, since the head trauma coming first is normally associated with victims where this method is initially used to subdue them prior to a further assault.

Also if JonBenet had been fighting with lets say Burke, and she fell off a chair or bench, hitting her head on the floor, becoming unconscious, then thats an accident just like the Golf Club accident, so why not rush her to hospital asap? So I assume the strangulation came first.

Steve Thomas's theory is very credible, but I think JonBenet never went to bed that night, and find it difficult to imagine PR strangling JonBenet in anger.



.

 

[Toltec]

Blunt force trauma to the skull....the back of which was pulverized.

 

[Paradox]

Blunt force trauma to the skull....the back of which was pulverized.

pulverize 1, to reduce to dust or powder 2. to demolish or crush completely

There was a bone displacement, less than 1 sq. inch. Don't embellish like Thomas did.

 

[Paradox]

Paradox,

The garotte is likely staging. What you suggest regarding her initial strangulation is what I assume may have led to her death.

I think Dr Meyer used the term associated and say not coterminous, or simultaneous, because even although the asphyxiation may follow the head trauma, or the head trauma that of the asphyxiation, there is no way to demonstrate the two events are not coterminous, which they may actually be?

e.g. if JonBenet was asphyxiated using her own top whilst sitting on a chair or bench, then as she looses consciousness the perpetrator lets go of the top, and JonBenet falls backwards hitting her head on some furniture behind her.

Alternatively similar to above except JonBenet is asphyxiated, she looses consciousness in the chair, and her perpetrator on moving the body causes the head to hit some object.

I suspect Dr Meyer might plumb for the coterminous interpretation, since the head trauma coming first is normally associated with victims where this method is initially used to subdue them prior to a further assault.

Also if JonBenet had been fighting with lets say Burke, and she fell off a chair or bench, hitting her head on the floor, becoming unconscious, then thats an accident just like the Golf Club accident, so why not rush her to hospital asap? So I assume the strangulation came first.

Steve Thomas's theory is very credible, but I think JonBenet never went to bed that night, and find it difficult to imagine PR strangling JonBenet in anger.
.

The order of the events is crucial to the motive and the nature of the crime. The Coroner can't comment on that.

The accident/cover-up theory doesn't account for the content of the note beyond saying it exhibits a criminally unsophisticated mind.

Patsy's odd contribution to DOI shows she is very capable of drifting into dreamland while awake.

I say Thomas is an unsophisticated student of psychology.

 

[rashomon]

Paradox,

e.g. if JonBenet was asphyxiated using her own top whilst sitting on a chair or bench, then as she looses consciousness the perpetrator lets go of the top, and JonBenet falls backwards hitting her head on some furniture behind her.
...
Steve Thomas's theory is very credible, but I think JonBenet never went to bed that night, and find it difficult to imagine PR strangling JonBenet in anger.

Isn't there a phrase in your English language "to jump at someone's throat", which means an angry attack (we have a similar phrase in German).
It is difficult to figure a mother doing that with her child, but it is known from domestic violence fights that people do strangle e. g. their partners in blind fury, or sometimes almost strangle them when pressing their hands around their throat in uncontrollable anger.
And wasn't Dr. Spitz's scenario also that maybe some initial strangulation (by twisting JB's turtleneck collar for example) preceded the head bash?

In terms of hitting her head by falling back: would JB really have gotten such a terrible head wound if she had merely fallen down a bench as the perpertator let go of her unconscious body? This would interest me very much.

 

[Jayelles]

Isn't there a phrase in your English language "to jump at someone's throat", which means an angry attack (we have a similar phrase in German).
It is difficult to figure a mother doing that with her child, but it is known from domestic violence fights that people do strangle e. g. their partners in blind fury, or sometimes almost strangle them when pressing their hands around their throat in uncontrollable anger.
And wasn't Dr. Spitz's scenario also that maybe some initial strangulation (by twisting JB's turtleneck collar for example) preceded the head bash?

In terms of hitting her head by falling back: would JB really have gotten such a terrible head wound if she had merely fallen down a bench as the perpertator let go of her unconscious body? This would interest me very much.

Not quite. There is a phrase "to jump down someone's throat" and it is used to describe a verbal attack. You could use the word "snap/bite someone's head off" in the same way.

 

[aussiesheila]

Strangulation causes blood supply to be cut off....so why the extensive bleeding from the brain?

Toltec, I have said this before to rashomon and I'll say it again to you - the bleeding wasn't extensive.

As you note in your post the blood supply was cut off from her brain by the strangling, so although there was a lot of bleeding from the head wound, it was actually far, far less than what would have been expected from the same head wound in a victim whose carotid artery not was consticted by the strangling ligature.

Meyer stated there was 'an extensive area of scalp hemmorhage' and people seem to have interpreted this as massive bleeding when in fact it wasn't a lot from a head wound such as the one JonBenet sustained. Meyer also describes 'a thin film of subdural hemmorhage' and 'a thin film of subarachnoid hemmorhage', again, these are not a massive amounts of subdural or subarachnoid hemmorhaging.

 

[sissi]

Wasn't it described as 7cc's. 5 ml =5cc= 1 tsp. ( I just checked the polymox bottle)...that's a very small amount of blood for such a huge injury.

 

[rashomon]

Toltec, I have said this before to rashomon and I'll say it again to you - the bleeding wasn't extensive.

As you note in your post the blood supply was cut off from her brain by the strangling, so although there was a lot of bleeding from the head wound, it was actually far, far less than what would have been expected from the same head wound in a victim whose carotid artery not was consticted by the strangling ligature.

Meyer stated there was 'an extensive area of scalp hemmorhage' and people seem to have interpreted this as massive bleeding when in fact it wasn't a lot from a head wound such as the one JonBenet sustained. Meyer also describes 'a thin film of subdural hemmorhage' and 'a thin film of subarachnoid hemmorhage', again, these are not a massive amounts of subdural or subarachnoid hemmorhaging.

I looked up 'subdural bleeding' in an online medical dictionary and it says that SD bleeding is usually from veins, not from arteries, which is also why subdural bleeding is fairly slow.

 

[CathyR]

The fact that any hemorrhage exists is proof she was alive after she received the blow. If she had been strangled then suffered the head wound no bleeding would have occurred.

I say head blow, assault/ that may have been combined with the garrote being used as an asphyxiation device. The compression of the garrote caused her heart to stop. This is why her front throat doesn't sustain breakage of the throat structures.

 

[BBB167893]

The fact that any hemorrhage exists is proof she was alive after she received the blow. If she had been strangled then suffered the head wound no bleeding would have occurred.

I say head blow, assault/ that may have been combined with the garrote being used as an asphyxiation device. The compression of the garrote caused her heart to stop. This is why her front throat doesn't sustain breakage of the throat structures.

Now you're talking!

 

[SunnieRN]

My own personal opinion is that Patsy isn't the killer, and doesn't know who the killer is. After ten years under the umbrella and an LE microscope there's nothing . She isn't a brilliant mind, criminal or otherwise, she couldn't have "pulled" this off.

There could be an alternative explanation for the statement Patsy made. If John came upon Burke molesting Jon Benet, or, if Burke actually was the one who hit Jon Benets head, or through an accident, she hit her head, John could have decided to do the staging. Patsy could be the one who helped. It's possible that Patsy is referring to the tw killers of John and Burke, as it is most likely that JB actually died after the blow to the head and was with the asphyxiation device. She could be the one that heard the confession of the killer, as John and not Burke was actually the killer in this scenario.

This would explain why Patsy wrote the note, why John knew to look in the basement to find JB, why Patsy was the emotional one. Maybe after learning that the molestation was recurring and that she died AFTER the blow to the head she felt betrayed. She 'stood by her men', but one of them also lied to her.

Far fetched, yes, possible, yes, probable? Makes sense with so many conflicting stories, statements and John and Patsy trying to throw everyone else under the bus.

 

[twinkiesmom]

The fact that any hemorrhage exists is proof she was alive after she received the blow. If she had been strangled then suffered the head wound no bleeding would have occurred.

I say head blow, assault/ that may have been combined with the garrote being used as an asphyxiation device. The compression of the garrote caused her heart to stop. This is why her front throat doesn't sustain breakage of the throat structures.

Cyril Wecht's point about the head blow was there was very little blood for the size of the fracture...She had to be strangled first....so either she was strangled to unconsciousness or her vagus nerve was pressed and her heart rate slowed to a near undetectable level.

 

[Bobbarita]

I am watching JaneVelez-Mitchell's special edition "Every Parent's Worse Nightmare". The show features the parents of children who have been murder victims of predator/pedophiles. I'm moved to tears as I witness the raw pain and emotional devastation of these parents and grandparents as they tell their stories. What a CONTRAST to the Ramsey's. There are several families on this program. Not one person who is being interviewed displays anything like the arrogance of the Ramsey's. IMO it is because these people had nothing to do with the murder of their children. They are NOT GUILTY.
The Ramsey's are guilty and got away with murder. Believe it.

 

[DeeDee249]

I am watching JaneVelez-Mitchell's special edition "Every Parent's Worse Nightmare". The show features the parents of children who have been murder victims of predator/pedophiles. I'm moved to tears as I witness the raw pain and emotional devastation of these parents and grandparents as they tell their stories. What a CONTRAST to the Ramsey's. There are several families on this program. Not one person who is being interviewed displays anything like the arrogance of the Ramsey's. IMO it is because these people had nothing to do with the murder of their children. They are NOT GUILTY.
The Ramsey's are guilty and got away with murder. Believe it.

Absolutely right.

When I think of how there was NOTHING from JB's grandparents or Patsy's sisters either, with the exception of Nedra's pathetic comment about JB being "only a little bit molested". What a comment to make about your strangled, bludgeoned, sexually assaulted 6-year old granddaughter.
As far as Patsy's sisters, only Aunt P made public comments, ALL of them expressing outrage that anyone suspected her sister's family.

 

[Ames]

I am watching JaneVelez-Mitchell's special edition "Every Parent's Worse Nightmare". The show features the parents of children who have been murder victims of predator/pedophiles. I'm moved to tears as I witness the raw pain and emotional devastation of these parents and grandparents as they tell their stories. What a CONTRAST to the Ramsey's. There are several families on this program. Not one person who is being interviewed displays anything like the arrogance of the Ramsey's. IMO it is because these people had nothing to do with the murder of their children. They are NOT GUILTY.
The Ramsey's are guilty and got away with murder. Believe it.

As I watched this program and listen to Jessica Lundford's father speak...and cry his heart out....I had the same exact thoughts as you.

 

[SunnieRN]

I just finished watching both parts of Issues.

I was struck, not only by the emotion, but by the fervor and gentle spirit of these parents.

They honor their children by fighting the evil that took their child away. They have gone beyond the hate, to a place that educates children to fight off potential predators. I find it hard to believe they can get up every day and keep going, keep fighting.

I thank them for working for change, that brings awareness and I am sure will save lives. Their children were blessed to know such love in their lives.

Even if I had felt J & P were innocent before this, the glaring difference in their behaviors, would be impossible to ignore. I can NOT believe that any innocent parent would not scour the entire planet looking for their daughters killer.

Another striking comment was by Jessica's father and the workings of the LE officers in his town. It seemed to sum up the problems of all LE agencies and the politics that tie their hands while doing their job.

Very courageous people!

 

[joeskidbeck]

I just finished watching both parts of Issues.

I was struck, not only by the emotion, but by the fervor and gentle spirit of these parents.

They honor their children by fighting the evil that took their child away. They have gone beyond the hate, to a place that educates children to fight off potential predators. I find it hard to believe they can get up every day and keep going, keep fighting.

I thank them for working for change, that brings awareness and I am sure will save lives. Their children were blessed to know such love in their lives.

Even if I had felt J & P were innocent before this, the glaring difference in their behaviors, would be impossible to ignore. I can NOT believe that any innocent parent would not scour the entire planet looking for their daughters killer.

Another striking comment was by Jessica's father and the workings of the LE officers in his town. It seemed to sum up the problems of all LE agencies and the politics that tie their hands while doing their job.

Very courageous people!

This is a wonderful post, Sunnie. Just wanted to add something to your thoughts. Jessica Lunsford's dad and grandparents had to endure the pain of being under that "umbrella of suspicion", only in their case, it was horrible the things that were being said, especially of her grandfather. But they endured and did everything they could to help find their granddaughter and her killer. And no expensive attorneys either. Her dad has been a shining example for parents of murdered children everywhere. Think about this: If the Ramseys are really innocent, how much good could they have done with the money they "wasted" on expensive legal aid? That's sad and something I believe they will answer for some day, innocent or guilty.

 

[SunnieRN]

Your statement is so true Beck!

I was thinking about JR during the show and his promise to find the killer. You would think that with his wealth and power, he would look to these parents for support and guidance. He could still make a difference, but instead does nothing to find his daughters killer, honor her memory, or seek the truth.

Instead, he hides behind lawyers. He hides his son behind lawyers. These facts alone tell me ALL I need to know and then some!