Couple ask people to vote for whether they should abort their baby or not

[Tuffy]

My honest answer to your question would be...
Life and the other things you listed are apples and oranges.
So, in your argument, is it ok to "choose" to kill a baby after it is born?
To me, it's the same.

To me, and IMO, a baby is a baby from conception.

When someone has sex and gets pregnant, thier body is not only their body for the next 9 months.

But, that's just my opinion. Not trying to offend anybody. Just wanted to answer your question as honestly as I could.

Thanks, Kimberly. That was well put. I feel the same way about abortion, but I have trouble explaining it to others.

 

[Nova]

My honest answer to your question would be...
Life and the other things you listed are apples and oranges.
So, in your argument, is it ok to "choose" to kill a baby after it is born?
To me, it's the same.

To me, and IMO, a baby is a baby from conception.

When someone has sex and gets pregnant, thier body is not only their body for the next 9 months.

But, that's just my opinion. Not trying to offend anybody. Just wanted to answer your question as honestly as I could.

Kimberly, it won't surprise you to hear I don't agree. But I see no reason why your post should offend anyone. It is the anti-choice position, stated clearly and without gratuitous judgments.

(FWIW, my response is that based on your beliefs, you should not have an abortion. But to many, a few cells are no more a "baby" than an apple seed is an apple pie. I don't believe you or I have a right to impose our definitions of "baby" on another woman's body.)

 

[Charlie09]

Kimberly, it won't surprise you to hear I don't agree. But I see no reason why your post should offend anyone. It is the anti-choice position, stated clearly and without gratuitous judgments.

(FWIW, my response is that based on your beliefs, you should not have an abortion. But to many, a few cells are no more a "baby" than an apple seed is an apple pie. I don't believe you or I have a right to impose our definitions of "baby" on another woman's body.)

(the apple seed will never grow into a pumpkin to make a pumpkin pie though, nor will it sprout wings and fly at some point. Those cells as you call it, will always turn out to be a living, breathing, crying human baby, if not terminated.)

 

[DairyGirl]

I was always pro choice and had no problem with abortion. I can tell you the day I changed my mind. It was the day I had an ultrasound with my six week old baby and saw his heart beating. I looked at that and I thought "They have been lying to me. It is not a blob of cells. It is alive." Those are my thoughts. I had an unplanned pregnancy 20 years ago and seriously considered having an abortion. I decided not to and I wound up losing that pregnancy. Everything happens for a reason. I do not condemn any one who does choose to have an abortion. My daughter had one. It is a hard choice and I hope no one goes into it lightly like these morons seem to be. It's not a perfect world or if it were there would be no unwanted babies while there are infertile couples longing for a baby.

 

[not_my_kids]

My honest answer to your question would be...
Life and the other things you listed are apples and oranges.
So, in your argument, is it ok to "choose" to kill a baby after it is born?
To me, it's the same.

To me, and IMO, a baby is a baby from conception.

When someone has sex and gets pregnant, thier body is not only their body for the next 9 months.

But, that's just my opinion. Not trying to offend anybody. Just wanted to answer your question as honestly as I could.

I can't speak for everyone, but you didn't offend me. It is not okay to kill a child after it's born...that's illegal and at that point, it is a child. I basically see it a perception issue. Some people percieve those cells to be a baby, and therefore consider it murder to keep those cells from growing. I, and others, don't perceive those cells to be a baby, and therefore, don't see it as murder.

I asked, you and a few others answered...it doesn't help me clarify the debate in my own mind, but that is because of my perception. Thanks for the answer.

FWIW, I think you misunderstood me. In my belief, it is not okay to kill a baby, but it is okay for a woman to make the choice to keep unwanted cells from growing in her body. For my own selfish reasons, I wouldn't make the choice to terminate those cells. Once those cells are fully formed into a child that has been delivered and is performing the functions of life, it is a human being, not just cells and the entire issue is much different.

And once again, I do consider it to be a personal choice, not an issue that should be left up to the voting public. Not on a grand scale or on a case by case basis.

 

[not_my_kids]

why do we care that some stranger's child is missing? or that anyone else is killed? or that Shaniya Davis' mother sold her? Does it impact us personally, or impact us as a society? Those of us who are pro-life believe abortion on demand impacts our society as a whole.

But, child abuse and child murder affect us all...just two of the things that can and do occur when women have children they didn't want and can't support. It's a social issue no matter where you stand on the debate, with valid social arguments that could back up either side. IMO.

 

[Trino]

I posted this earlier, but I guess many of you did not see it. The husband is PRO-LIFE (web site comments). This is an attempt to get publicity. Creepy.

 

[Soulmagent]

I posted this earlier, but I guess many of you did not see it. The husband is PRO-LIFE (web site comments). This is an attempt to get publicity. Creepy.

I saw it and to me it makes the results very interesting.

Yesterday I checked the numbers and 980,000 people had voted for an abortion and 236,000 had voted for birth.

Today is apears the number have went down on the abortion side 878,000
and the birth vote has went up by the missing 100,000 votes.

I should have taken a screen shot. I wont make the mistake again.

 

[impatientredhead]

(the apple seed will never grow into a pumpkin to make a pumpkin pie though, nor will it sprout wings and fly at some point. Those cells as you call it, will always turn out to be a living, breathing, crying human baby, if not terminated.)

Everyone who has had a miscarriage would disagree with that statement. And not all abortions are performed on perfectly healthy growing fetus that would have resulted in a living, breathing, crying baby.

Black and white philosophy never works in these situations, it doesn't work for either side of the arguement.

The BELIEF of when a human life starts is currently defined by the person. Much like religious beliefs it is a personal decision. You may be adamant in your *personal* religious beliefs, and your *personal* stand on abortion, but that does not make it a fact, doesn't make it right.

It makes it right for you. And I would fight as vehemently for your right to make reproductive decisions yourself as I would for the woman who has decided to get an abortion.

That being said I think there are many things that can be done to reduce the number of abortions that are sought out, but these debates never focus on that. It always has to be black/white, wrong/right, keep it legal/make it illegal.

Which to be honest always makes me wonder how much they really truly want to make a change in the number of abortions if the only thing that motivates the cause is a 100% overturn. If all the dog rescues in the world refused to do what they can do until there was legislation that protected ALL unwanted animals millions of dogs would die in the meantime.

Sometimes if you really want to make a change you start small, with the one girl in your life that you can counsel about birth control, or adoption, with an education program, with a campaign celebrated mothers who gave up their kids for adoption and calling them heros.

If both sides did that the issue would become less of an issue by attrition.

JMO

 

[Charlie09]

But, child abuse and child murder affect us all...just two of the things that can and do occur when women have children they didn't want and can't support. It's a social issue no matter where you stand on the debate, with valid social arguments that could back up either side. IMO.

Not valuing human life inside the womb impacts every member of society with how we view life in general.

 

[not_my_kids]

Not valuing human life inside the womb impacts every member of society with how we view life in general.

That is your belief. You are welcome to it. Mine is just a different belief. That's all. We won't see eye to eye on this one, but I respect your stance on the issue.

 

[Nova]

(the apple seed will never grow into a pumpkin to make a pumpkin pie though, nor will it sprout wings and fly at some point. Those cells as you call it, will always turn out to be a living, breathing, crying human baby, if not terminated.)

Not necessarily. Far more fetuses are miscarried than aborted. I wonder why God allows that if every zygote is so precious?

But while we're on the subject of miscarriage, I wonder if those who insist a single fertilized cell is a "baby" intend to charge every woman who inadvertently causes a miscarriage through lack of rest, excess movement, etc., with "criminal negligence"?

I realize the apple see/apple pie analogy was imperfect, but it amused me.

The correct comparison would be to say "an apple seed is not an apple tree." But surely you'll agree "apple pie" was catchier...

 

[Nova]

I posted this earlier, but I guess many of you did not see it. The husband is PRO-LIFE (web site comments). This is an attempt to get publicity. Creepy.

I saw it and I think I "thanked' you Trino. I'm assuming we all realize this is a stunt and have moved on to a very respectful (IMHO) discussion of abortion in general.

 

[Nova]

I saw it and to me it makes the results very interesting.

Yesterday I checked the numbers and 980,000 people had voted for an abortion and 236,000 had voted for birth.

Today is apears the number have went down on the abortion side 878,000
and the birth vote has went up by the missing 100,000 votes.

I should have taken a screen shot. I wont make the mistake again.

If the numbers are that lop-sided, I suspect it's because people have caught on that this is a stunt.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I have tried to stay away from this thread. Really tried. But oh well I guess I'm weak.

Nobody has the right to decide what is right for another human so long as they are breaking no laws (cuz we know the law has decided it has the right to decide to punish someone if they choose to break a law). Sometimes abortion is the only option and unless you have been in such a situation- you can talk all day long about the "issues" and the pro's and cons but you will never have a clue.. how could you?! Debates IMO are pointless because the people who are against abortion are always gonna be against abortion- they will never "get it" in any real sense of the word.

I was extremely mentally ill.. undiagnosed, actively psychotic and had just attempted suicide when I found out I was pregnant. Even in such a state I knew I was not in the postion to be a good mother to the child that was already breathing let alone another one. I have no doubt in my mind that if I had gone through with the pregnancy I would have ended up a child abuser (not an easy thing to admit but if we are gonna "debate" this we might as well be honest, right?) plus the medications I OD'd on almost killed me, I assure you, they were not kind to the fetus. So I had an abortion and then I got my tubes tied (and treatment for my mental illness). It was without a doubt the best decision for me, my (now 16 year old) child who was already born at the time and for my husband. Not to mention for society and social services (one less child destroyed by their mother). Anyone who can't see that that was the right choice will never see it.. some minds are stuck closed.

 

[OneLostGrl]

Not valuing human life inside the womb impacts every member of society with how we view life in general.

Who says abortion means we don't value it? I made my choice because I valued it. And I know I'm not alone.

 

[impatientredhead]

Who says abortion means we don't value it? I made my choice because I valued it. And I know I'm not alone.

I posted my story upthread but I was living with a mentally ill drug addict mother who beat me through my entire childhood and her boyfriend later husband who started molesting me when I was twelve.

Despite that I had a 4.0 in school and a scholarship waiting for me if I could just get out the door (where I would then have years of therapy ahead of me).

My mother immediatedly started in on me about giving her the child, so her and her pedophile boyfriend could raise a the baby he never got to have.

Without a shred of drama the thought of bringing a child into that environment even if I had stayed put or if you had added on the trauma to my previous traumas of removing my (what I saw at that time) as my one real shot to get out of that house I would have put a gun in mouth and me and the baby would have been dead.

But hey, it wouldn't have been aborted so maybe in a black and white world that is more palatable than me having the choice to do what was right for me (and the child to be) in a situation no one else can evaluate.

I too never had kids because of my background.
I would have been a nightmare of a mother.
Decades later I think that might be a different story but I would not gamble on it enough to find out I was wrong and bring a child into this world with a crappy mother. So yes, I find the idea that it has no value to me offensive.

But it is a volatile subject.
I try to be respectful of everyone's opinions.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I posted my story upthread but I was living with a mentally ill drug addict mother who beat me through my entire childhood and her boyfriend later husband who started molesting me when I was twelve.

Despite that I had a 4.0 in school and a scholarship waiting for me if I could just get out the door (where I would then have years of therapy ahead of me).

My mother immediatedly started in on me about giving her the child, so her and her pedophile boyfriend could raise a the baby he never got to have.

Without a shred of drama the thought of bringing a child into that environment even if I had stayed put or if you had added on the trauma to my previous traumas of removing my (what I saw at that time) as my one real shot to get out of that house I would have put a gun in mouth and me and the baby would have been dead.

But hey, it wouldn't have been aborted so maybe in a black and white world that is more palatable than me having the choice to do what was right for me (and the child to be) in a situation no one else can evaluate.

I too never had kids because of my background.
I would have been a nightmare of a mother.
Decades later I think that might be a different story but I would gamble on it enough to find out I was wrong and bring a child into this world with a crappy mother. So yes, I find the idea that it has no value to me offensive.

But it is a volatile subject.
I try to be respectful of everyone's opinions.

:hug:

 

[Soulmagent]

Not necessarily. Far more fetuses are miscarried than aborted. I wonder why God allows that if every zygote is so precious?

But while we're on the subject of miscarriage, I wonder if those who insist a single fertilized cell is a "baby" intend to charge every woman who inadvertently causes a miscarriage through lack of rest, excess movement, etc., with "criminal negligence"?

I realize the apple see/apple pie analogy was imperfect, but it amused me.

The correct comparison would be to say "an apple seed is not an apple tree." But surely you'll agree "apple pie" was catchier...

Dear God,

Is there really a god?

Love me.

 

[Charlie09]

Not necessarily. Far more fetuses are miscarried than aborted. I wonder why God allows that if every zygote is so precious?

But while we're on the subject of miscarriage, I wonder if those who insist a single fertilized cell is a "baby" intend to charge every woman who inadvertently causes a miscarriage through lack of rest, excess movement, etc., with "criminal negligence"?

I realize the apple see/apple pie analogy was imperfect, but it amused me.

The correct comparison would be to say "an apple seed is not an apple tree." But surely you'll agree "apple pie" was catchier...

I'm glad the subject or any part of it amuses you....I think that is part of the issue.

While we're on the subject indeed

The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-212) is a United States law which recognizes a "child in utero" as a legal victim, if he or she is injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence. The law defines "child in utero" as "a member of the species *advertiser censored* sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb".[2]

The law is codified in two sections of the United States Code: Title 18, Chapter 1 (Crimes), §1841 (18 USC 1841) and Title 10, Chapter 22 (Uniform Code of Military Justice) §919a (Article 119a).

The law applies only to certain offenses over which the United States government has jurisdiction, including certain crimes committed on Federal properties, against certain Federal officials and employees, and by members of the military. In addition, it covers certain crimes that are defined by statute as federal offenses wherever they occur, no matter who commits them, such as certain crimes of terrorism.

Because of principles of federalism embodied in the United States Constitution, Federal criminal law does not apply to crimes prosecuted by the individual states. However, 34 states also recognize the fetus or "unborn child" as a crime victim, at least for purposes of homicide or feticide.[3]

The legislation was both hailed and vilified by various legal observers who interpreted the measure as a step toward granting legal personhood to human fetuses, even though the bill explicitly contained a provision excepting abortion, stating that the bill would not "be construed to permit the prosecution" "of any person for conduct relating to an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf", "of any person for any medical treatment of the pregnant woman or her unborn child" or "of any woman with respect to her unborn child."

The bill contained the alternate title of Laci and Conner's Law after the California mother (Laci Peterson) and fetus (Conner Peterson) whose deaths were widely publicized during the later stages of the congressional debate on the bill in 2003 and 2004. (see Scott Peterson and Laci Peterson). Scott Peterson was convicted of double homicide under California's fetal homicide law.

so only when convenient, or amusing....got it