The “roughly triangular, parchment-like rust colored abrasion”

[RTC]

If JR israeli made sweater was used to wipe her down, wouldnt JB DNA be on the sweater? Please dont tell me the Ramsey clothes they were wearing on the 25th eve were not confiscated.

 

[otg]

If JR israeli made sweater was used to wipe her down, wouldnt JB DNA be on the sweater? Please dont tell me the Ramsey clothes they were wearing on the 25th eve were not confiscated.

RTC:
The Ramsey clothes they were wearing on the 25th eve were not confiscated.

(Well, actually... not until much later, and probably after many washings.)
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[SunnieRN]

If JR israeli made sweater was used to wipe her down, wouldnt JB DNA be on the sweater? Please dont tell me the Ramsey clothes they were wearing on the 25th eve were not confiscated.

Actually, they were requested one year after the murder and turned in four months after they were requested. The BPD stated that the clothes looked brand new and the top/sweater, didn't look like it would even fit Patsy. Also, they didn't say whether or not they even asked for any of Burkes clothing.

 

[otg]

Actually, they were requested one year after the murder and turned in four months after they were requested. The BPD stated that the clothes looked brand new and the top/sweater, didn't look like it would even fit Patsy. Also, they didn't say whether or not they even asked for any of Burkes clothing.

Oh, my! I didn't even think about Burke's clothing. Can you imagine what it might have told, if my theory of what happened held true?
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[SunnieRN]

I honestly think they needed to ask for the clothes he wore and his pj's, but 16 months after the fact, the only use is fibers. I am sure there would not be any DNA evidence on any of the clothing items.

 

[otg]

I know, Sunnie. But can you imagine if BPD had all done all the things that should have been done from the very beginning? For one thing, I guess we wouldn't all be here. What would we be doing instead?
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[MurriFlower]

What I meant by that is that the statement "...did not match any footwear belonging to the parents," is correct; but we know now that at least one (the Hi-Tek) might have belonged to BR. Do we know that it did belong to BR? No. But despite their initial denial, BR did own a pair -- the ones with a compass on the laces. We don't know the size of it, but the BPD probably does.

And on your earlier question about the "XP" seen on the other one... I looked, Murri, but couldn't find a specific brand of shoes. If you google "xp shoes", you'll find lots of references, but I didn't find any images of what the soles of any of them would show. Thanks, BTW, for the all the image enhancements. You're really good at that!
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You would think it would be reported somewhere that the shoes belonging to BR either were/were not a match to the print in the wine cellar? Does anyone have a reliable media source for this??

Now about the "XP" type mark, I looked at the Hi-Tec imprint and realised it was mirror reversed (as you'd probably expect). On this basis, the other mark may not be XP at all, perhaps it's Xb or is that really an X or an T or F??

The marks on JBR's back appear to be a ripple pattern like from something similar to an old fashoned tennis shoe or what is now known as a "skate" shoe, rather than a "sneaker" type print. There is a clean outline like the sole is flat.

I've found the photos very interesting, just wish I had a real top quality photo enhancement program.

 

[SunnieRN]

Trying to find out who Sharon Marshall really is, or looking for a missing child!! ;-) Otg, I can only wish that the case had been handled correctly and the DA had issued warrants for information and not stated the R's were to be treated like victims. It would be a whole different ballgame!!!

 

[BBB167893]

What I meant by that is that the statement "...did not match any footwear belonging to the parents," is correct; but we know now that at least one (the Hi-Tek) might have belonged to BR. Do we know that it did belong to BR? No. But despite their initial denial, BR did own a pair -- the ones with a compass on the laces. We don't know the size of it, but the BPD probably does.

And on your earlier question about the "XP" seen on the other one... I looked, Murri, but couldn't find a specific brand of shoes. If you google "xp shoes", you'll find lots of references, but I didn't find any images of what the soles of any of them would show. Thanks, BTW, for the all the image enhancements. You're really good at that!
.

I'm not even sure there was a print to size. My understanding (and keep in mind, this is from some time ago) is that the logo was the ONLY part of the print that could be seen.

 

[BBB167893]

RTC:
The Ramsey clothes they were wearing on the 25th eve were not confiscated.

(Well, actually... not until much later, and probably after many washings.)
.

Either that, or the shirt wasn't used to wipe her down at all. If my theory is correct, the fibers would have fallen in when his arm scuffed against her waistband.

 

[MurriFlower]

I'm not even sure there was a print to size. My understanding (and keep in mind, this is from some time ago) is that the logo was the ONLY part of the print that could be seen.

Yes I think that's quite possible. Looking at the photo, the logo "Hi-Tec" is clear, but there is no visible outline of the shoe. That seems odd.

 

[BBB167893]

Yes I think that's quite possible. Looking at the photo, the logo "Hi-Tec" is clear, but there is no visible outline of the shoe. That seems odd.

Yes, it does. If anyone has ideas, I'm open.

 

[otg]

Yes I think that's quite possible. Looking at the photo, the logo "Hi-Tec" is clear, but there is no visible outline of the shoe. That seems odd.

I put some lines coming from what I see as the outline of the Hy-Tec:

See it now?

I think with what they have, they should be able to determine the shoe size.

Have they announced it? (Why should they? I believe they know who it belongs to.)
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[otg]

I think with what they have, they should be able to determine the shoe size.

Have they announced it? (Why should they? I believe they know who it belongs to.)

I should add that I don’t think knowing the shoeprint’s owner is proof of involvement on his part in itself. All it proves is that he had been in the room at some time recently. What it does show, IMO, is that because of the denials from PR and JR that he even owned a pair until he told BPD that he did, they were trying to make it look like it belonged to some unknown intruder. I think they did this, just like they did with the Santa Bear Doll, to try and point to anyone outside the home, anyway they could.
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[MurriFlower]

I put some lines coming from what I see as the outline of the Hy-Tec:

See it now?

I think with what they have, they should be able to determine the shoe size.

Have they announced it? (Why should they? I believe they know who it belongs to.)
.

I was thinking that the logo being so clear and the outline not clear indicates that the logo is on the ball of the foot (most weight), rather than in the arch where you have assumed. Also you have the logo cross-wise, but in some of their shoes it is lengthwise. So, while you are trying to fit the logo to the size of your suspect, (BR) I think if you expand your suspects to include adults, you might find the shoe size is potentially larger.

 

[Steely]

I honestly think they needed to ask for the clothes he wore and his pj's, but 16 months after the fact, the only use is fibers. I am sure there would not be any DNA evidence on any of the clothing items.

And naturally....16 months later BR would have outgrown most everything he owned at the time of the murder. Although I'm sure if he did have anything with possible evidence PR would have made sure he "outgrew" it right away.

 

[Steely]

Either that, or the shirt wasn't used to wipe her down at all. If my theory is correct, the fibers would have fallen in when his arm scuffed against her waistband.

Agreed...no way would he use his nice shirt to do that...he'd know it would need to be accounted for and if he destroyed it...PR would be TICKED.

 

[otg]

I was thinking that the logo being so clear and the outline not clear indicates that the logo is on the ball of the foot (most weight), rather than in the arch where you have assumed. Also you have the logo cross-wise, but in some of their shoes it is lengthwise. So, while you are trying to fit the logo to the size of your suspect, (BR) I think if you expand your suspects to include adults, you might find the shoe size is potentially larger.

Murri , I see the outline. I see where the logo is in relation to the outline. I see the direction of the logo. I don’t “have the logo cross-wise.” It is what it is. You are trying to interpret the evidence to support a preconceived conclusion.

While I could have tried to say that the evidence supports my belief of BR’s involvement, I pointed out that it did not necessarily prove that. I follow the evidence wherever it leads. If it proves I’m wrong -- so be it. Believe me when I tell you, I really hope to be proven wrong. But misinterpreting hard evidence is not something that lends credence to anyone.
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[MurriFlower]

Murri , I see the outline. I see where the logo is in relation to the outline. I see the direction of the logo. I don’t “have the logo cross-wise.” It is what it is. You are trying to interpret the evidence to support a preconceived conclusion.

While I could have tried to say that the evidence supports my belief of BR’s involvement, I pointed out that it did not necessarily prove that. I follow the evidence wherever it leads. If it proves I’m wrong -- so be it. Believe me when I tell you, I really hope to be proven wrong. But misinterpreting hard evidence is not something that lends credence to anyone.
.

otg, it depends on the type of shoe where and how large the logo is. Heel
http://www.zappos.com/multiview/7339935/143892 Arch http://www.zappos.com/multiview/7618512/227929 Ball http://www.shareclothing.com/produc...elSilver-Indoor-Squash-Racquetball-Shoes.html

So without a clear outline or print, it's not possible to decide what type of shoe it was and therefore where/how the logo was positioned.

 

[Steely]

Traditional autopsy techniques are SUBJECTIVE and rely on verbal description and two-dimensional photography...

http://radiographics.rsna.org/content/26/5/1305.long
"the documentation of forensic pathologic findings is still predominantly based on the same autopsy techniques and protocols that have been used for centuries. The most commonly used tools are a scalpel, verbal description, and conventional two-dimensional photography (1). Forensic findings are thereby documented in an unintentionally subjective (observer-dependent) way, and findings that have not been documented are irrevocably destroyed if the body has been sent to the crematory."

Lesions? Abrasions? Burns? What is an "unknown abrasion"? Abrasions, electrical lesions and flame burns (contact burns too?) sometimes need to be examined under a microscope to get differential diagnoses. We don't know what caused the abrasions on JB and we can't really tell from a photograph. Can we say with 100 percent certainty these marks cannot be electrical lesions or burns?

Too bad the ME didn't get tissue samples from JB's "unknown abrasions."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18472235
"The results of this study revealed that certain morphological changes determined under a light microscope could help the differential diagnoses of electrical lesions, flame burns and abrasions."

Patterned injuries leave "morphologic fingerprints." If this technology had been available, perhaps there would be no need for this forum.
http://www.astm.org/DIGITAL_LIBRARY/JOURNALS/FORENSIC/PAGES/JFS2003118.htm

More interesting reading here:
http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?...c&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=KhpXLFgfghgIi6LyQUWC6A--

"Blood vessels compressed by pressure of contact with clothing or supporting surface will not fill and the area remains pale (contact or pressure pallor). Lividity is sometimes confused with bruising."

"SHAPE AND SIZE of bruises are very variable & poor indicator of causative object. Expansion and movement blur the outline. Some bruises inflicted with a small hard object, immediately prior to death may retain the pattern of the causative object. Rapid death will limit the extension and blurring of the outline which usually occurs under circulatory blood pressure. e.g. bumper, grille or headlight on pedestrian, neck ligature, blow over clothing or jewellery An associated imprint abrasion is more useful."